Nikon New Camera Teaser, FX Mirrorless to be Announced on 23 August, 2018

[mike_halliwell]

From an optics/mechanics viewpoint, how hard is it for Nikon to simply make 2 versions of all NEW FX lenses. I'm guessing the E lenses were a step in the compatibility direction.

 

So will they be making the 500mm 5.6 PF in both mounts?

 

... and to keep Andrew happy, the 135mm f2 DC

[BeBu Lamar]

From an optics/mechanics viewpoint, how hard is it for Nikon to simply make 2 versions of all NEW FX lenses. I'm guessing the E lenses were a step in the compatibility direction.

 

So will they be making the 500mm 5.6 PF in both mounts?

 

... and to keep Andrew happy, the 135mm f2 DC

 

The short flange distance only benefit the short focal length lenses and thus should require intensive redesign to take advantage of this. For long focal length lenses I think there is no need to change the optical. I think they can easily make the 500mm f/5.6 PF in both mount easily.

[Ed_Ingold]

There are many advantages to a short flange distance, but wide angle lenses are not among them. Cosine effects, including exposure and focus issues, increase as the rear node approaches the sensor. MILC lenses with a focal length less than 35 mm are best designed with an inverted-tele model. It is much easier to clean sensors in a MILC than in a DSLR, where it is buried deep in the mirror box, and the mirror and shutter have to be held open during the process.

 

Having the shortest flange distance among competitors means other MILC lenses can be used. This provides an incentive to buy a Nikon body even if you have a significant investment in lenses for another camera. That certainly worked for Sony, and was one of the key attributes that convinced me to switch.

 

Using those other lenses, Nikon and Leica, convinced me to replace them with native lenses within a year - a win win for Sony.

 

The thick cover glass for Sony is a design feature, not an oversight. We may not agree with the engineering decision, but it wasn't made in a vacuum. The sensor is very close to the flange, and a thicker glass offers better physical protection. Most of the thickness is for IR rejection. The Leica M8 used a 0.8 mm filter, which passed significant amounts of IR and was highly compatible with existing lenses. IR is most noticeable in shadows, producing a purple color that is very difficult to correct. After a string of complaints, Leica shipped hot mirror filters with their cameras. The M9 increased that thickness to 1.3 mm, reducing IR effects to a barely noticeable level, but affects corner sharpness with some lenses. Sony uses a 1.8 mm filter, which consistently renders neutral shadows, even under incandescent light, and designs lenses with that in mind.

 

I suspect Nikon will take a similar approach. Their main competitor will be Sony, so compatibility will be a selling point. Their MILC lenses will be designed from scratch, and can easily incorporate the necessary optics. DSLR lenses will remain compatible because of their inherently long backfocus distance.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Ed_Ingold

[ilkka_nissila]

I think the focus motor or motors and the choice of which groups move for focusing may need to be different for best performance with mirrorless vs. DSLR AF systems. However, it is of course possible that they'd issue the same lens in two versions. My suspicion is, however, that Nikon design the lenses for the two systems in such a way that they are in some way optimal solutions for the perceived needs of each system. For example if the shape and size of the body are different then the lenses likely will be shaped to be a good fit for the different cameras on the DSLR and mirrorless mounts. I think the rumor of a 24-70/4 as a starting zoom illustrates that although they aim for high end market they consider the need of mirrorless users to have compact lenses, and surely a 24-70/2.8 would be large for the mirrorless body (I suspect such a lens will be requested by users, however).

 

I think Andrew must have nightmares about the 135 DC, maybe it will be reissued with some additional aberrations in the new mirrorless mount. :eek::D

[BeBu Lamar]

I think the focus motor or motors and the choice of which groups move for focusing may need to be different for best performance with mirrorless vs. DSLR AF systems. However, it is of course possible that they'd issue the same lens in two versions. My suspicion is, however, that Nikon design the lenses for the two systems in such a way that they are in some way optimal solutions for the perceived needs of each system. For example if the shape and size of the body are different then the lenses likely will be shaped to be a good fit for the different cameras on the DSLR and mirrorless mounts. I think the rumor of a 24-70/4 as a starting zoom illustrates that although they aim for high end market they consider the need of mirrorless users to have compact lenses, and surely a 24-70/2.8 would be large for the mirrorless body (I suspect such a lens will be requested by users, however).

 

I think Andrew must have nightmares about the 135 DC, maybe it will be reissued with some additional aberrations in the new mirrorless mount. :eek::D

 

Speaking of Andrews I think of all the people in this thread I think he is the most likely person to buy one.

[Andrew Garrard]

Speaking of Andrews I think of all the people in this thread I think he is the most likely person to buy one.

 

Has my Nikon Acquisition Syndrome gained that much notoriety? There's a chance eventually, but it's not really on my radar at this point, and I'm not going to be drooling over it unless there are some significant innovations. There's plenty I still want Nikon to do to the D850! That I couldn't get a decent trade-in on my D810 means I have the back-up body that was one reason I was vaguely interested.

 

I think the focus motor or motors and the choice of which groups move for focusing may need to be different for best performance with mirrorless vs. DSLR AF systems.

 

I wonder about that. Stepper motors (AF-P) give you a very repeatable way of going back and forth between two values, which is useful if you're doing contrast-detect autofocus and are trying to home in on the ideal focus position. But if we assume that a mirrorless solution will have phase detect on sensor, and (like the dSLRs) be able to tell both how far you are out of focus (ish) and which direction, that ability would seem to be less important to me than absolute lens speed, as provided by the traditional SWM/AF-S.

 

I think Andrew must have nightmares about the 135 DC, maybe it will be reissued with some additional aberrations in the new mirrorless mount. :eek::D

 

It was quite traumatic. A bunch of wedding photos where the bride's hair was green and her earrings were purple is an experience I don't want to go through again - and it was beyond what any automated LoCA removal tools that I had available then or have seen since have managed to deal with quickly. (I ended up doing a lot of selective blurring in the chroma channels of an Lab image and then post-sharpening.)

 

Andrew!

The Df as we know was intended for a small audience and I think it does as least as well as Nikon expectation.

 

Thom Hogan, I believe, seemed to think it sold less than expected (although I doubt it was expected to keep up with the traditional bodies). I did see one sold recently, so I don't claim nobody wants one, but maybe the fuss over the years about "my ideal camera would look like the F3" gave Nikon some optimism that these people would find the Df acceptable. Some did, but others didn't.

 

The 1 series was aim at a much larger audience namely the M4/3 people and it missed badly because simply I wouldn't even care about the specs of the camera after just seeing the camera.

 

Well, I didn't care about the specs after I saw the price tag. :-) I didn't care what the camera looked like, but while it could do some interesting things, pricing it against the D7x00 series was crazy, and the horrendous interface of the early models didn't help. Nikon never really kept it all that current, especially with lenses, but mostly I think it was killed by the RX100 and similar, which gave a much better convenience factor combined with at least as much image quality. Plus the smart phones continuing to get better. I suspect Nikon were a bit too optimistic because apparently they did kind of okay in Japan. Don't get me wrong, I have a V1 (and might use it this weekend), but for one purpose only (the high frame rate) and only because it was heavily discounted.

 

I can make the same case for the Samsung failure. Samsung was very excited about mirrorless but they failed badly because they didn't make the camera good looking.

 

Hmm. With the appreciation that I recently had to admit, in the street photography forum, that a compact camera in a leather case which made it look like a Leica seemed to be raising less objection than a dSLR, I still personally don't care what the camera looks like, so long as the capability and ergonomics are there. I appreciate that others may have a different opinion. Both the Nikon 1 series and the Samsung 1" sensor NX mini series were available in several colours, and at least the NX-mini was designed to be slimline and look nice. It kind of does (if you like your cameras to look like a bar of soap more than you like a grip), and it wasn't priced stratospherically. But it had no lens system, with a lens on it it still wasn't anything like as pocketable as an RX100 which had a faster lens, and the image quality was always going to struggle against a larger sensor. And there was only really one generation, so it never got refined.

 

The main APS-C Samsung NX system was vaguely competitive, but they were mostly a bit so-so in image quality and some of the design, and they were up against Sony (before the focus on full frame) and Sony-derived sensors. The NX1 was actually quite good (28MP, decent autofocus, 15fps, 4K video...) - I played with one attached to the big f/2.8 zoom at an airport and it was pretty responsive. Of course, it was the size of a dSLR. I believe that sensor was much more competitive with Sony/Fuji and the APS-C dSLRs for image quality, but by that point the lack of success of the lower-end cameras had kind of killed the system. Samsung still makes an awful lot of cameras, they just mostly go in phones.

 

I don't think the size of the mirrorless is the big selling point for them any more.

 

It depends. I'm sure it still is for Micro 4/3, where the crop factor makes the lenses look small. Fuji seem to attract some users who want a smaller system partly because of Nikon's slightly limited DX-specific lens range - and some others who want Df-style handling. The first Sony full-frame mirrorless bodies and lenses were quite small (partly because the latter were slow and the former had a limited grip and tiny battery); the later ones are bigger. Still, one thing that would attract me to the Nikon mirrorless system is if it could reduce my travel load.

 

It's all about the EVF now and so at least the Nikon offering has a prominent EVF. It does extend further to the back of the camera to somewhat preventing the nose problem but since I don't have the nose problem perhaps Nikon designers also have small noses.

 

There are things you can do in an EVF that people aren't doing in a dSLR finder. I do think more could be done to add information overlays to a prism for those who want it, though. I still think a central finder penalises everyone equally (perhaps make more variations, including left-handed, now it's a small matter of moving electronics?) - but then I have quite a large nose.

 

That big knob is something I dislike about Nikon design.

 

Who? Oh, right. Agreed - anything I can't reach while shooting just seems wrong. That even includes the playback button - just because my camera is no longer to my eye doesn't mean my left hand doesn't have to hold it somehow.

[ilkka_nissila]

The embedded PDAF sensors seem to have limitations regarding how much light is needed to measure small focus errors and how large phase errors can be measured. In practice these limitations are solved by switching to CDAF and then again you need a lens that can do precise small steps. Some users who have been using the A9 with longer lenses designed for DSLRs seem to report that the initial focus acquisition involves hunting until focus is sufficiently close, after which the system tracks well. Furthermore at least Nikon's OSPDAF and I believe Sony's switch to CDAF when the light is low. So in any case, better results are obtained if the lens can do CDAF well. Finally the PDAF sensors are optimized for a certain exit pupil distance (according to Nikon) and thus the optical designs for native mirrorless and DSLRs would likely be made in slightly different ways (for optimal autofocus as well as optimal use of space).

 

I think Nikon will likely design each lens to be optimal for the target.

[BeBu Lamar]

Andrew! With the mirrorless you may want to hit the playback button while looking into the viewfinder.

If I were to judge the success of this new camera I would see if Andrew would buy it in the first 6 months after introduction. If he doesn't then it's a failure. Of course as Andrew said it has to have some significant innovations but it won't be successful without significant innovations. It can't be just a me too.

Let me recap. If Andrew doesn't buy on it's a failure.

If I buy one Nikon would pass Canon and be #1 again.

Edited August 3, 2018 by BeBu Lamar

[Andrew Garrard]

Ilkka: fair enough - I don't have enough experience of PDoS to comment. I would actually appreciate it if Nikon's dSLRs also had the option of contrast detect focus confirmation followed by EFCS - for static subjects, obviously.

 

BeBu: While I concede there have been times (even today!) when using the rear LCD has been tricky due to viewing conditions, I generally don't mind, and find it more comfortable than using the finder when I'm not actually trying to shoot. The touch screen on the D850 makes this even more true.

 

Anyway: yes, I'm an early adopter, a mover and shaker (well, wobbler), all men follow me and my word can make or break a company. Nikon should grovel at my feet, because I've absolutely not historically supported a number of commercially failing products despite the evidence of the market (ahem).

 

Though if Nikon happens to give me some big superteles, I promise to say nice things about them. :-)

[Dieter Schaefer]

Teaser #3 - about the body Breaking News. Not much I can make of it. Most likely a mode dial on the left side of the EVF (lifting the shadows clearly shows an S and what I make out as an A) - typical Nikon PSAM mode dial I suppose. Just two images of the new mirrorless, all the others are from other cameras. Edited August 9, 2018 by Dieter Schaefer

[mike_halliwell]

Removable viewfinder looks a distinct possibility. It's not really integrated into the contour 'shape' of the top at-all. I guess maybe that's what the knurled knob is for?

 

However, WHY, you'd want it removable is another question...:confused:

[Dieter Schaefer]

On the A7/A9 bodies the viewfinder doesn't look integrated at all either - and it certainly isn't removable. If anything, the Nikon EVF looks more integrated as it appears to have a curve in it to accommodate the mount. With a flippable LCD screen, there's little to no reason to have a removable viewfinder. And without a mirror, there's no chance of a hybrid one.

[mike_halliwell]

Indeed!

 

It looks a bit better than the Nikon 1 V2 but distinctly different to the optional VF of the V3..... which had a removable VF AND tilting screen......:)

 

Nikon in-house MILC design?

[BeBu Lamar]

Look like it has dual wheels for settings. An exposure compensator dial on the right side. The PSAM dial on the left side. Nothing interesting.

[Dieter Schaefer]

the optional VF of the V3..... which had a removable VF AND tilting screen

The operative word being "optional" - strongly doubt Nikon will go that route on a professional FX mirrorless.

 

Nikon in-house MILC design?

Seem to have borrowed a bit from everybody - notably Sony and Leica.

 

Look like it has dual wheels for settings.

It better.

An exposure compensator dial on the right side.

Just like Sony - not sure that it is such a good thing. I have turned it inadvertently a few times and don't see an advantage on having it vs the common arrangement of a button and a turn of one the command dials. Maybe the presumably e-ink top LCD is to be kept less cluttered than the existing top LCDs in DSLRs?

The PSAM dial on the left side.

And likely U1, U2 (and possibly more) customizable user settings - similar to the D7x00, D6x0, and D750. Maybe "scene" modes and auto modes too.

[ShunCheung]

The third teaser doesn't have much in it, kind of disappointing. As we discussed before, I think this teaser campaign has dragged on for too long and it is difficult to keep the momentum. Additionally, there are already leaked images of a model holding the Nikon mirrorless camera on various rumor sites, e.g.

Here Are the First Decent Pictures of the Nikon Mirrorless Camera

 

I thought that was a Japanese/European model, but she turns out to be the Chinese actress/model Dilraba Dilmurat of Uyghur ethnicity. She has been doing commercials for Nikon in China. Those images were originally leaked from Chinese media. Additionally, if the camera is already in production in Thailand, we may see leaks from there also. Those leaks seem to provide more info than the teaser, thus overshadowing it.

 

BTW, I don't see why you want a removable viewfinder on a mirrorless camera.

[BeBu Lamar]

The third teaser doesn't have much in it, kind of disappointing. As we discussed before, I think this teaser campaign has dragged on for too long and it is difficult to keep the momentum. Additionally, there are already leaked images of a model holding the Nikon mirrorless camera on various rumor sites, e.g.

Here Are the First Decent Pictures of the Nikon Mirrorless Camera

 

I thought that was a Japanese/European model, but she turns out to be the Chinese actress/model Dilraba Dilmurat of Uyghur ethnicity. She has been doing commercials for Nikon in China. Those images were originally leaked from Chinese media. Additionally, if the camera is already in production in Thailand, we may see leaks from there also. Those leaks seem to provide more info than the teaser, thus overshadowing it.

 

BTW, I don't see why you want a removable viewfinder on a mirrorless camera.

 

So you know that they are going to make them in Thailand? Removable viewfinder because you may want to wear a viewfinder on your eye.

[ShunCheung]

So you know that they are going to make them in Thailand?

I don't know as a fact that Nikon is making their new FX mirrorless cameras in Thailand, but I can't imagine it is anywhere else.

 

Previously Nikon manufactured the Nikon 1 mirrorless cameras at a plant in Wuxi, China, not far from Shanghai. However, that plant has been closed for a while (therefore the official shutdown of Nikon 1 was hardly a surprise). Given the current trade tension, I would imagine that Nikon would avoid adding a new major product to its remaining China factories.

 

Nikon has been making DSLRs in Thailand since the D70 in 2004. Today, as far as I know all Nikon DSLRs other than the D5 and Df are manufactured by Nikon Thailand, including the D850 and D750 (and previously the D810). Therefore, manufacturing FX mirrorless bodies at Nikon Thailand should be quite natural.

[Dieter Schaefer]

From the little that's known so far, I like that the Nikon mirrorless appears to be larger than the Sony A7/A9 bodies - that's entirely a good thing in my book. In particular since I expect the lenses to be larger than Sony's too - just on account of the larger mount. Based on Nikon's history of (almost) ever improving grip ergonomics, I expect the Nikon grip to be larger and better than Sony's too. Central EVF placement is the only logical one for me - a rangefinder style placement automatically disqualifies the camera for me for the simple fact that I am a left eye shooter.

 

It the PSAM dial to the left of the EVF hump is an indication of a D750-style UI layout then IMHO Nikon picked the lesser of the two options they have on DSLRs. While I personally could live without the QUAL and WB buttons in the center of the left dial on cameras like the D810 (or at least have them lockable or customizable), I don't want to deal with the line of double-duty buttons alongside the rear LCD display like on a D750 - and there is a chance that there won't be such a line of buttons on the mirrorless (on the Sony, QUAL and WB are items that are set via menu or put on a FN key to access - and I almost fully expect Nikon to follow that concept). There appear to be a lot more buttons and control elements to the right of the LCD display than what we are used to on DSLRs - just like on Sony's A7/A9 buttons. It also appears that Nikon provides a joystick - something Sony took 3 generations to implement. Sony has more fully embraced the notion of fully customizable buttons - without the restrictions Nikon usually imposes - I expect that to change for the new Nikon mirrorless. Sony has a lot of dual functionality on some of its control elements - which can lead to changing settings one had no intention of changing. In my case of the A7II/A7RII changing ISO when I was attempting to move the AF point - an issue Sony remedied with providing the joystick for the latter task in the MkIII versions and the A9.

 

Personally, I like a top LCD better than dials - though particularly on a mirrorless I can understand the desire for dials as they allow to set or check parameters without turning the camera on. On the other hand though, a turned-off mirrorless camera is even more useless than a turned-off DSLR. But if you have a top LCD - why combine it with a mode dial wasting real estate space? Maybe just trying to have it both ways?

 

I expect the button arrangement around the shutter release to be the same as on the D850 - though if the dial visible on the right corner is an EV compensation dial, then there would be no need for a EV compensation button (unless one wants to have it both ways - which Sony does provide).

 

Naturally, one would desire the mirrorless UI to not deviate too much from the DSLR UIs (at least for those who are used to the latter and may use both types at the same time) - but that may not result in the best mirrorless-specific UI. It certainly appears that Nikon will have to provide a new means to change AF modes as well as a new means to change drive modes. I expect that a lot will be via the rear LCD display that may have at least partial touchscreen functionality.

[BeBu Lamar]

Why not use one of the wheels for exposure compensation as I think that has been done on the DSLR? If you are in M there is no need for EC. If you are in A then make the rear one as EC. If you are in S or P then it's the front one. In P the rear one is program shift.

[mike_halliwell]

So what's the knurled knob on the side of the EVF? What needs to be changed internally with one?

 

A way to select different viewable overlays maybe? grids, horizons, focus peaking, blinkies etc?

 

Edit. Is it now OK to link to rumor sites?

[BeBu Lamar]

I think it’s the diopter adjustment.

[mike_halliwell]

BeBu, Really? It's simply HUGE!

[Dieter Schaefer]

So what's the knurled knob on the side of the EVF? What needs to be changed internally with one?

I think it’s the diopter adjustment.

I wouldn't be surprised if it has multiple functions - one of which could be diopter adjustment. But for that it wouldn't have to be so prominent. I'm guessing that it might be used to dial in various viewfinder magnifications or switch between different display modes (as Mike surmised above). It could also be that it's used to toggle between modes where the effect of exposure settings is ON or OFF. And/or to switch between EVF and back LCD - something that is done "automatically" with Sony (via a sensor in the EVF and the corresponding appropriate menu setting) but can be infuriating at times.

[paul_b.1]

"To succeed, does it have to be able to accept Nikon FX G and E lenses (via an adapter)?"

...it should be kept the F mount bayonet, have excellent low light capabilities and the best AF in the market.

Instead they give us a new Z mount and we have to sell an arm and a leg to buy a new line of lenses...

...the chances for me to buy a Nikon mirrorless are down to 66% :-)