Nikon New Camera Teaser, FX Mirrorless to be Announced on 23 August, 2018

[heimbrandt]

New cameras are always a good thing, perhaps a D850 owner will want one of them and sell their camera to me. Mirrorless is not really my thing as I prefer an optical viewfinder. Horses for courses.

 

The f0.95 hype is mostly about marketing and fanboy bragging rights. When I want extremely shallow depth of field in a portrait, I use my PC-E 85/2.8D and tilt it. The 105/1.4E is probably even better in that respect. Noise at ISO 25? Cue the marketing department and enter the fanboys. The D8X0 range already have noise levels at or near base ISO that most would, at the very least, call ”good enough” not to call it the biggest area of concern and need for improvement in the range.

 

While I do not use the levelling indicator, I can relate to it beeing difficult to see under certain conditions. Why not activate the grid then? It is a function that I think is better implemented in live view (turns green when level) and the only time I ever find other levelling aids than grid lines useful is when I shoot ’Hail Mary’ style.

 

All in all, I am still quite happy with the D800E. I find its af on the slow side when I shoot birds with my ”600/5.6 VR”. I have tried the D850 and it was much faster. Enough to make me want it. Bird photography is all about reach and the D850’s improved cropping capabilites is another reason for me to want it. And yes, I want longer glass too. Thus, I am personally more interested in the soon-to-be-launched AF-S 500/5.6PF than Nikon’s mirrorless offerings.

[ilkka_nissila]

New cameras are always a good thing, perhaps a D850 owner will want one of them and sell their camera to me. Mirrorless is not really my thing as I prefer an optical viewfinder.

 

Someone may, though the D850 is a very new camera and the new mirrorless will probably take off for real when it has more native lenses available. I would not expect it to be a huge sales hit until a range of lenses are available. I also like optical viewfinders and have no plans of buying the new camera, but for silent photography applications, eventually, some version of a mirrorless camera may be useful to me.

 

The f0.95 hype is mostly about marketing and fanboy bragging rights. When I want extremely shallow depth of field in a portrait, I use my PC-E 85/2.8D and tilt it. The 105/1.4E is probably even better in that respect.

 

Have you looked at dpreview's samples for the Leica 75/1.25? I think the rendering is very beautiful and apart from the extraordinarily high cost, I can see a real purpose to these lenses even if I could not afford them. A Nikon f/0.9 or f/1.2 lens would probably not be nearly as expensive as Leica.

 

The D8X0 range already have noise levels at or near base ISO that most would, at the very least, call ”good enough” not to call it the biggest area of concern and need for improvement in the range.

 

I thought that base ISO dynamic range of even the D700 was great and it wouldn't have been necessary to improve it but I was very wrong. The D850 (and D810) give just amazing results at base ISO, with minimal damage when regions need to be processed differently. Although I still wouldn't call direct sunlight ideal portrait lighting, there is a lot that can now be done to work with it and alleviate the issues.

 

While I do not use the levelling indicator, I can relate to it beeing difficult to see under certain conditions. Why not activate the grid then?

 

I use the grid and not the virtual horizon in the optical viewfinder; I don't see that I have any problems getting my shots level, although the precision is greater when working on tripod. I do use the LV virtual horizon to align shots prior to applying shift in forest or architectural shots, for example.

 

All in all, I am still quite happy with the D800E. I find its af on the slow side when I shoot birds with my ”600/5.6 VR”.

 

I suppose you mean the 600/4 VR?

 

I have tried the D850 and it was much faster.

 

True, the Multi-CAM 20k module and the separate AF processor is a major improvement to AF performance.

 

Thus, I am personally more interested in the soon-to-be-launched AF-S 500/5.6PF than Nikon’s mirrorless offerings.

 

If you really want a 600/5.6 then it may be worth waiting for them to make that instead of the 500. But only the 500's development has been announced officially and perhaps a super lightweight 500mm is easler to use than a 600.

[mike_halliwell]

Hopefully the new cam will have a 'user settable' focus limiter. Something like 50m > Infinity for airshows, or 2 > 4m for dragonflies, or maybe 10 > 20m for BIF?

[heimbrandt]

Someone may, though the D850 is a very new camera and the new mirrorless will probably take off for real when it has more native lenses available. I would not expect it to be a huge sales hit until a range of lenses are available. I also like optical viewfinders and have no plans of buying the new camera, but for silent photography applications, eventually, some version of a mirrorless camera may be useful to me.

Agreed, mirrorless has it advantages and uses. Every now and then there are people who sell their D850(s).

 

Have you looked at dpreview's samples for the Leica 75/1.25?

No, I have not but I believe you that it is wonderful. Still, I consider it a special item like the Nikkor 6/2.8, 300/2, 1200-1700, and the more modern 800/5.6 and Canon’s 12000/5.6. More to show off what is technically achievable than what would actually make them money. Ah well, one can dream and sometimes rent.

 

I suppose you mean the 600/4 VR?

No, I have a 300/2.8 VR with a TC-20EIII, hence 600/5.6 VR. I have looked at the 500 and 600/4 VR and would like one for birding as I am sure it would be better with my TC-14EIII. It is a lot of money though and for horses and many other things, the 300/2.8VR is more versatile.

[Ed_Ingold]

There is a good chance that DSLRs may be banned or highly restricted for news conferences, due to the noise they generate. I suspect that flash units will be restricted as well. There is no practical way to silence a DSLR, unless you use Live View and hold the camera at arms length. MILCs can and do have totally silent shutters, useable at eye level with an electronic finder. With high ISO at good quality and a wide dynamic range, I seldom find a flash necessary when shooting events.

[BeBu Lamar]

There is a good chance that DSLRs may be banned or highly restricted for news conferences, due to the noise they generate. I suspect that flash units will be restricted as well. There is no practical way to silence a DSLR, unless you use Live View and hold the camera at arms length. MILCs can and do have totally silent shutters, useable at eye level with an electronic finder. With high ISO at good quality and a wide dynamic range, I seldom find a flash necessary when shooting events.

Live view on a DSLR still makes noise though.

[ilkka_nissila]

Some DSLRs (e.g., the D850) have silent photography modes in live view. You don't need to hold it arm's length, you can use a tripod or hold it whichever way you want.

[Ed_Ingold]

Some DSLRs (e.g., the D850) have silent photography modes in live view. You don't need to hold it arm's length, you can use a tripod or hold it whichever way you want.

You can only use the rear LCD panel for live view on a DSLR. That is at arms length, eye level with a stick-on magnifier (e.g., Hoodman), or on a tripod. An MILC is 100% live view, through the viewfinder or rear LCD, whichever you choose to use. Pointing the camera without composing is a trivial solution.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Doesn't seem the teaser is getting all that much attention - no wonder giving the lack of real info provided.

 

So, what do people here actually expect the Nikon mirrorless offering to be?

 

I expect a mirrorless version of the D850 - at about the same price as the D850/MB-D18/EN-EL18 combo but with less than half the battery life of a EN-EL15. I expect the camera will weigh 20% less than a D850 and the main distinction will be its better suitability for video.

 

I would like to see a black-out free high-resolution EVF - though I don't know how this could be done without utilizing a stacked sensor like the one in the A9 (which I doubt we'll see). I expect there will be better than 90% AF area coverage for both contrast and phase detect (with still-photography AF performance at par with the D850 and live-view/video AF clearly better) and there will be IBIS. I also expect the camera will offer an electronic shutter option for silent shooting.

 

That at a time when the D850 that was released almost a year ago still is not in stock here in the US. Frankly, I think it would be better for Nikon to come out with a mirrorless FX offering that is a direct successor of the D750 and a direct competitor of the A7III (matching or exceeding the latter specifications). One big contribution factor to success or failure will be the performance and availability of the F-mount adapter - which frankly I think Nikon should include with the camera for free.

[BeBu Lamar]

About the adapter to use F mount lens I sure hope that it doesn't involve a transparent mirror. I think if it support down to AF-S G lenses then it would be fine. There are very few non AF-S G lenses and those are not great ones any way. It should have the aperture stop down level to control the aperture on G lenses and to stop down the lens to set aperture for lens with aperture ring. Not really need for screw AF or metering with AI lenses or older lenses. Few people who are like me use those old lenses any way and myself who do use them don't really care for AF or metering. I do want the lens to stop down automatically as I would hate having to open the lens to max aperture for focusing and then stop it down manually to take the shot.

[ShunCheung]

That at a time when the D850 that was released almost a year ago still is not in stock here in the US. Frankly, I think it would be better for Nikon to come out with a mirrorless FX offering that is a direct successor of the D750 and a direct competitor of the A7III (matching or exceeding the latter specifications). One big contribution factor to success or failure will be the performance and availability of the F-mount adapter - which frankly I think Nikon should include with the camera for free.

Nikon's tendency is to come up with a high-end, low volume model first. Recall that their first DSLR the D1 was $5500 in 1999 (and produced poor results, in today's standards). The first FX body the D3 was $5000 in 2007 (with very respectable results).

 

I would expect Nikon to come out with a high-end mirrorless body first, and it is going to be a low-volume model for Nikon to gain experience and fine tune the design. Initially Nikon will lack dedicated mirrorless lenses to sell a lot of bodies, anyway. An F-mount adapter, and I am sure there will be many third-party adapters to mount all sorts of lenses, will help, but most people will prefer native lenses.

 

Meanwhile, there doesn't seem to be a second teaser yet. To sync up with Photokina, I would imagine that the actual announcement will be in late August to early September. That is roughly still a month away. It is going to be difficult to hold the interest for that long without announcing an actual product.

 

Most likely the 500mm/f5.6 PF (in Nikon F mount) will probably be announced on a separate date, also before Photokina.

Edited July 26, 2018 by ShunCheung

[Dieter Schaefer]

I would imagine that the actual announcement will be in late August to early September

Allegedly, the announcement date is 8/23.

 

Nikon's tendency is to come up with a high-end, low volume model first.

Indeed. Some successful releases though were dual: D3/D300, and D5/D500.

 

The first FX body the D3 was $5000 in 2007 (with very respectable results).

I somehow doubt that Nikon's first mirrorless will have the same success as Nikon's first FX. Given how far the "competition" has come, it'll be tough for Nikon to hit one out of the ballpark.

 

Initially Nikon will lack dedicated mirrorless lenses to sell a lot of bodies, anyway. An F-mount adapter, and I am sure there will be many third-party adapters to mount all sorts of lenses, will help, but most people will prefer native lenses.

Lack of lenses was also Sony's problem - and it took about 5 years to release a decent set. That's why I maintain that the performance of the F-mount adapter will be crucial (more precisely the performance of the adapted lenses on the camera) - even though I personally don't like using adapters (been there, done that). What may work in Nikon's favor to some extent is that it was always less convenient for Nikon users to switch to Sony than it was for Canon users as there quickly were working options to adapt Canon glass to the Sony bodies but only recently did the first barely working Nikon adapters surface.

 

Not really need for screw AF or metering with AI lenses or older lenses

It will be interesting to see whether or not the adapter comes with an Ai tab.

 

In the first year, Sony releases five lenses for the A7/A7R: a cheap 28-70/3.5-5.6, expensive Zeiss-branded 35/2.8, 55/1.8, and 24-70/4, and a Sony 70-200/4. Aside from the already pretty much known 24-70/4, I wonder what Nikon's first set will look like? It took Sony three years to come up with the professional's workhorses 24-70/2.8 and 70-200/2.8 and another year to add the 16-35/2.8. And another before the first lens with a focal length longer than 300mm was available in native mount (variable aperture 100-400). Just recently, the first supertele (400/2.8) was released.

[ShunCheung]

I am confident that adapters for F mount lenses onto Nikon mirrorless will be fine. It might not be perfect immediately, but I am sure it will be refined, by Nikon as well as by many third parties. I expect that there will be multiple adapters, some more complex with motors to move the mechanical aperture diaphragm and mechanical AF shaft. But the easiest lenses to adapt will be AF-S E and P lenses.

 

However, I expect new wide angle lenses without the need to leave space for the mirrorbox, and AF motors great for DSLR might not be perfect for mirrorless. Essentially you need dedicated mirrorless lenses to get the most out of the new system.

 

The 2020 summer Olympics will be in Tokyo again. I am old enough to remember the 1964 Olympics was also in Tokyo, and Nikon introduced a 80-200mm/f4.5 zoom whose convenience made it popular there (I was too young to learn that part, which I read later on. I had no idea what Nikon was in 1964.). Let's see whether there will be a D6 sports DSLR or a new mirrorless sports camera introduced in 2019 or 2020 before the Olympics.

[BeBu Lamar]

Shun were you in the US in 64? I think you would know about Nikon if you were.

[ShunCheung]

Shun were you in the US in 64? I think you would know about Nikon if you were.

Back in 1964, I was a little boy in Hong Kong. I still recall that a classmate's father went to Tokyo to watch the Olympics (a 4-hour flight??). Even back then, there were a lot of stores in Hong Kong selling cameras. I was just too young to know what an SLR was and the brand names. I first learned about Nikon several years later, still in Hong Kong. I bought my first Nikon camera there.

[mike_halliwell]

The FT-1 adapter only 'allowed' centrepoint only for AF; that kinda limitation would be terminally fatal in the new adapter....maybe that's a contributory factor as to why the Nikon 1 series died? Edited July 26, 2018 by mike_halliwell

[Dieter Schaefer]

I am confident that adapters for F mount lenses onto Nikon mirrorless will be fine. It might not be perfect immediately, but I am sure it will be refined, by Nikon as well as by many third parties.

I have very little confidence regarding third party adapter manufacturers. AFAIK, there's only one that currently makes an adapter for Nikon AF-S G lenses to be mounted on Sony E-mount cameras (two others are just re-brands) - and from all I've read, those adapters at best are usable with static subjects. There's no reason to assume that adapting to a Nikon mirrorless will be any less problematic, especially if Nikon keeps up its custom of not sharing the mount and other specifications. I know of one case were adapting an admittedly incompatible lens (non-AF-S Nikkor) actually fried the Sony camera.

I do want the lens to stop down automatically as I would hate having to open the lens to max aperture for focusing and then stop it down manually to take the shot.

None of the current manual focus (non-AF) Nikon G to Sony E-mount adapters provides automatic diaphragm operation; at best they provide a rudimentary manual aperture control that does not allow to set specific aperture values; the AF ones naturally do provide that feature though.

[ShunCheung]

I have very little confidence regarding third party adapter manufacturers. AFAIK, there's only one that currently makes an adapter for Nikon AF-S G lenses to be mounted on Sony E-mount cameras (two others are just re-brands) - and from all I've read, those adapters at best are usable with static subjects. There's no reason to assume that adapting to a Nikon mirrorless will be any less problematic, especially if Nikon keeps up its custom of not sharing the mount and other specifications. I know of one case were adapting an admittedly incompatible lens (non-AF-S Nikkor) actually fried the Sony camera.

Dieter, I am not convinced that the problem is entirely in those third-party adapters. Again, the AF motors inside Nikon AF-S lenses intended for DSLRs are not necessarily ideal for mirrorless cameras due to differences in the AF systems. The fact that you are mating different brands is definitely not helping.

 

I am sure even Nikon's own adapters will have problems, especially since Nikon has such a long history of different types of lenses, with and without a built-in AF motor, mechanical vs. electronic aperture control .... That is why I think using lenses specifically designed for Nikon mirrorless is key. I just took a look at the Sigma Art lenses for the Sony E mount. They sure look like Sigma Art lenses for DSLRs with an extension tube permanently built into the barrel to match Sony's flange-to-sensor distance. IMO those are all "Band Aide" solutions for a transition period.

[mike_halliwell]

If there is no glass in an adapter, I'm guessing the IQ of the lens is the same regardless of the native flange distance of the body it's on? (assuming infinity focus is possible)

[wogears]

If there is no glass in an adapter, I'm guessing the IQ of the lens is the same regardless of the native flange distance of the body it's on? (assuming infinity focus is possible)

That. as I understand it, depends on the incident angle needed to optimise sensor response.

[BeBu Lamar]

None of the current manual focus (non-AF) Nikon G to Sony E-mount adapters provides automatic diaphragm operation; at best they provide a rudimentary manual aperture control that does not allow to set specific aperture values; the AF ones naturally do provide that feature though.

 

But you're talking about third party adapter to mount Nikon lens on Sony. This coming adapter is a Nikon adapter to adapt Nikon lens on Nikon camera. I

[Dieter Schaefer]

I am not convinced that the problem is entirely in those third-party adapters. Again, the AF motors inside Nikon AF-S lenses intended for DSLRs are not necessarily ideal for mirrorless cameras due to differences in the AF systems. The fact that you are mating different brands is definitely not helping.

All true - but let's not forget that adapting Canon lenses to Sony cameras is not as problematic as adapting Nikon lenses despite the fact that their AF motors are also made to interface with DSLRs and not mirrorless. I can't comment on how Pentax or Sony A-mount lenses behave on the Sony E-mount cameras.

But you're talking about third party adapter to mount Nikon lens on Sony. This coming adapter is a Nikon adapter to adapt Nikon lens on Nikon camera. I

I know. And Nikon will certainly get things right. I was just pointing out that so far no third party has produced an non-AF adapter for Nikon lenses to Sony cameras that allows control of the aperture from the camera - maybe because demand is too low and or the technical problems too hard to overcome. Including aperture actuator motor in the adapter shouldn't be too hard though - but one needs to have/make the space for it and provide power from the camera. Nikon can account for all that in the design of the camera itself - which gives them an edge in the adapter design.

 

That. as I understand it, depends on the incident angle needed to optimise sensor response.

Which should not be a problem with any lens designed for the larger flange-to-sensor distance of a DSLR. Issues on the Sony mirrorless arose for wide-angle lenses designed for the short flange-to-sensor distance of a rangefinder camera and was made worse by Sony's use of a rather thick sensor cover glass.

 

They sure look like Sigma Art lenses for DSLRs with an extension tube permanently built into the barrel to match Sony's flange-to-sensor distance. IMO those are all "Band Aide" solutions for a transition period.

They not only look like it, they are. Sigma offered a MC-11 adapter for Canon lenses - which now has been permanently included in the lens. If I am not mistaken, I could send my Nikon-mount Sigma Art lenses to Sigma to have them converted to Sony E-mount.

 

It also appears that at least some of the current Sony E-mount lenses followed the same principle - they are not designed natively for the E-mount but are adapted DSLR designs. IMHO, Sony designed the E-mount too small - an issue Nikon certainly seems to avoid with the new Z-mount (if that's indeed what the new mount will be called).

Edited July 26, 2018 by Dieter Schaefer

[Andrew Garrard]

I ought to do some work before I catch up properly, but...

 

On non-AF lenses, there are certainly adaptors (at least for micro 4/3, I've not checked for Sony) which allow mechanical aperture control of G lenses. I imagine that, absent actual autofocus support as well, many people feel that aperture priority or manual mode suffices. I'd be less surprised by an AF motor than by an aperture follower ring, and less surprised by a EE post switch than either. Almost all current lenses are G, but only the D3400 has fully abandoned legacy there. There are quite a few lenses with screwdriver focus that are semi-recent; indeed, the 28-80 f/3.3-5.6G currently on my D90 is screw focus, but G - and it (and the similar 28-200) was current in 2008 when I bought it.

 

Thom Hogan pointed out (since I've not been looking) the existence of a "24" and "3" on the lens in the teaser. Given its size, that to me suggests a 24-70 f/2.8. Given that a 70mm f/2.8 would be tiny, this suggests that Nikon haven't managed to make a small 24-70 despite the reduced need for it to be retrofocal. And since the number one complaint I've heard about Nikon's last two 24-70 lenses is that they're enormous (certainly compared with the Tamron I own), that's a little disappointing. Given the size of the 135 f/2.8, it really ought to be possible to make a mirrorless 24-120 f/2.8 that's acceptably small, and that would be an interesting selling point given the size of the F-mount 24-120 f/4. We'll see, of course.

[mike_halliwell]

Andrew, where's the 3 in 24-70 f/2.8?............;) Edited July 27, 2018 by mike_halliwell

[mike_halliwell]

Given the interesting omission of a Nikon mount version of the latest Sigma 70mm Macro, you gotta wonder what mount issues are brewing for Sigma/Nikon?

 

I'd hope there would be a re-mount for my Sigma 135mm 1.8 to Nikon Z Mount (or whatever they call it)