Nikon New Camera Teaser, FX Mirrorless to be Announced on 23 August, 2018

[ShunCheung]

I don't think the F-to-mirrorless adapter has any optics inside, at least for the one to be announced in 3 days on August 23, 2018. It is just a hollow tube to make up that 30mm or so distance plus electronic connections to make metering and AF-S work. I wonder how the mechanical aperture control for non-E lenses will work, though.

[BeBu Lamar]

I don't think the F-to-mirrorless adapter has any optics inside, at least for the one to be announced in 3 days on August 23, 2018. It is just a hollow tube to make up that 30mm or so distance plus electronic connections to make metering and AF-S work. I wonder how the mechanical aperture control for non-E lenses will work, though.

It would support E lenses for sure but I sure hope it has the aperture control level to stop down the G lenses. I also hope that it doesn't have AF sensors that need the translucent mirror like the Sony adapter. If they put the translucent mirror in I would much rather use one without any coupling or AF.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Seriously, where is the adapter between the 180-400mm f4 F mount lens and the Z mount body @ 0.37 in the new teaser?

Hiding behind the grip - the angle was carefully chosen to hide the adapter - which should be about the size of a TC-17EII. You almost see the full length of the 180-400 - it terminates right after the taper. There's absolutely no reason to include an optical element to adapt lenses designed for a larger sensor-to-flange distance to a camera that has a shorter one.

 

I wonder how the mechanical aperture control for non-E lenses will work, though.

Rumor has it that the adapter will look like the FT-1 for the Nikon 1 Series - and the electromotor to actuate the aperture tab will be in it, receiving its signal through the CPU contacts.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Dieter Schaefer

[mike_halliwell]

I guess it's just a 'grown-up' FT-1......... literally!

 

Apparently it has a tripod foot aswell...:-) I suppose that could reflect somehow on the 4-screw body ring mount?

 

Unlike the FT-1, you gotta hope there isn't a list of 'too heavy' F-Mount lenses that cannot be used.....:mad: The reach of the 200-500mm on my J5 would be kinda handy sometimes.

[Dieter Schaefer]

It would support E lenses for sure

If it will indeed turn out the E lenses work (almost) like native Z-mount lenses when adapted to the new mirrorless, then for a lot of pros an adequate set may already exist: both the 24-70/2.8 and the 70-200/2.8 are E lenses. With the exception of the 300/2.8, all the superteles are E and there are a few primes that are E too. There's an 200-500/5.6 and an AF-P 70-300E. So compared to Sony, Nikon may have a much larger set of "workable" lenses right out of the gate making it a lot easier for many to add mirrorless to their arsenal. It took Sony 4-5 years to release a set of native f/2.8 zooms - Nikon may just be short a wide-to-superwide zoom. Nikon surprised everyone with a 14-24/2.8 back in the days - I wouldn't be surprise if there's a Z-mount 12-24/2.8 in the near future.

 

I suppose that could reflect somehow on the 4-screw body ring mount?

Really weird - Sony started out that way and went to six screws now. Even the smaller F mount uses 5 or 6 (strangely enough, the D3400, for example, uses 6, whereas the D810 uses only 5).

[mike_halliwell]

I guess if they actually screw into decent metal rather than poly-carbonate it'd be OK, but indeed, you gotta wonder why? Especially as there's no longer a screw-drive hole, there's plenty of space.

 

Maybe for some kind of different adapter in the future and it's much easier to design around 4 than 6 holes in the body/chassis front plate?

 

Equally, there was an odd rumour (sorry!) that the large diameter of the Z-Mount could allow for medium format in the future?

[ShunCheung]

I really hope that the new adapter will not be like the FT1 that has a huge tripod collar. It just makes it unnecessarily big. In any case, I am sure more adapters will come to the market, from Nikon and third parties.

 

I haven't seen any reliable image of the new mirrorless camera's mount area. I wonder whether it still maintains the mechanical aperture control to older F-mount lenses or it'll depend on a motor inside the adapter to control the aperture on pre-E lenses.

 

No doubt it is easiest to mount E type F mount lenses on mirrorless. In recent years I have made it a rule to only buy E lenses (or AF-P). Currently I have three: 24-70mm/f2.8 AF-S VR, 300mm/f4 PF and 200-500mm/f5.6. There are plenty of those already including the latest 400mm, 500mm, 600mm and 800mm supertele, 28mm/f1.4, and 105mm/f1.4. The up-coming 500mm/f5.6 PF should be E also. Maybe we are missing a 16-35mm/f2.8 lens for mirrorless, but otherwise the existing set is quite complete (including the 70-200mm/f2.8 already mentioned).

[BeBu Lamar]

I really hope that the new adapter will not be like the FT1 that has a huge tripod collar. It just makes it unnecessarily big. In any case, I am sure more adapters will come to the market, from Nikon and third parties.

 

I haven't seen any reliable image of the new mirrorless camera's mount area. I wonder whether it still maintains the mechanical aperture control to older F-mount lenses or it'll depend on a motor inside the adapter to control the aperture on pre-E lenses.

 

No doubt it is easiest to mount E type F mount lenses on mirrorless. In recent years I have made it a rule to only buy E lenses (or AF-P). Currently I have three: 24-70mm/f2.8 AF-S VR, 300mm/f4 PF and 200-500mm/f5.6. There are plenty of those already including the latest 400mm, 500mm, 600mm and 800mm supertele, 28mm/f1.4, and 105mm/f1.4. The up-coming 500mm/f5.6 PF should be E also. Maybe we are missing a 16-35mm/f2.8 lens for mirrorless, but otherwise the existing set is quite complete (including the 70-200mm/f2.8 already mentioned).

As none of us has seen the mount clearly but I am sure the new mount won't have any mechanical couplings. Also I think it may have fewer electrical contact although it would communicate more function back and forth from the lens.

[ShunCheung]

As none of us has seen the mount clearly but I am sure the new mount won't have any mechanical couplings. Also I think it may have fewer electrical contact although it would communicate more function back and forth from the lens.

What I am sure about is that native Nikon mirrorless lenses for FX will not use any mechanical aperture control, just like Nikon 1 lenses which only have electronic contacts (and a mechanical lock to lock the lens onto the body). However, it is possible for Nikon to put the mechanical aperture control on the mirrorless bodies initially so that it is easier to control the traditional F-mount lenses before E, thus making the adapter simpler. After a few years when there are plenty of native mirrorless lenses and everything before E lenses becomes a distant memory, Nikon can gradually remove the mechanical coupling from lower-end mirrorless bodies, very much like the D40, D3000 and D5000 have no AF motors inside.

 

We'll find out for sure in 2+ days.

 

 

See the total absence of mechanical controls on the Nikon 1 mount. And how large the mount diameter is compared to sensor size?

The mount diameter can't be too small or the lenses will be so tiny that they may become difficult to handle.

 

[mike_halliwell]

Ooo look, 4 screws and a lens lock pin!

 

Maybe someone just photoshoped it larger for the mock-up pix? Afterall, it's the only Nikon MILC they could use...;)

[ilkka_nissila]

Unfortunately E lenses are quite rare, as Nikon's lens sales started to decline dramatically around the same time they started to offer more E lenses. And the popular third party lenses for Nikon F mount are not E.

 

However the motor to control the aperture of G lenses can be put in the adapter, as in the 1 series adapter Nikon offered.

[BeBu Lamar]

Unfortunately E lenses are quite rare, as Nikon's lens sales started to decline dramatically around the same time they started to offer more E lenses. And the popular third party lenses for Nikon F mount are not E.

 

However the motor to control the aperture of G lenses can be put in the adapter, as in the 1 series adapter Nikon offered.

Rare because people don't buy them perhaps but when people bought the Z camera and need lenses they can buy and use the E lenses.

[ShunCheung]

I wouldn't say Nikon E lenses are rare (that is E lenses with electronic aperture control, not to be confused with AI-S Series E lenses from the 1980's). Personally I know a number of people who own 400mm/f2.8, 500mm/f4, 600mm/f4 and 800mm/f5.6 E AF-S lenses. Obviously not everybody can afford those exotic super-teles, but something like the 200-500mm/f5.6 E 300mm/f4 E PF AF-S VR lenses are quite popular. The 200-500 is very affordable for wildlife enthusiasts and I have seen quite a few in the field.

 

Not sure how many people have upgraded to the 24-70mm/f2.8 E and 70-200mm/f2.8 E, both AF-S VR, as the previous non-E versions are very good lenses themselves. And then there are the 8-15mm E fisheye, 28mm/f1.4 E AF-S and 105mm/f1.4 E AF-S. Also the 19mm, 24mm, 45mm, and 85mm PC-E lenses are all E, although there is no AF.

 

As mentioned earlier the fairly new 180-400mm/f4 AF-S VR and the up-coming 500mm/f5.6 PF are also E. Clearly the long end is very well represented by E lenses.

 

P.S. There is also the 16-80mm E DX lens, but I would imagine few would use that on FX bodies (with DX crop).

[BeBu Lamar]

And the short end is better served by native Z mount lenses.

[Mary Doo]

I wouldn't say Nikon E lenses are rare (that is E lenses with electronic aperture control, not to be confused with AI-S Series E lenses from the 1980's). Personally I know a number of people who own 400mm/f2.8, 500mm/f4, 600mm/f4 and 800mm/f5.6 E AF-S lenses. Obviously not everybody can afford those exotic super-teles, but something like the 200-500mm/f5.6 E 300mm/f4 E PF AF-S VR lenses are quite popular. The 200-500 is very affordable for wildlife enthusiasts and I have seen quite a few in the field.

 

Not sure how many people have upgraded to the 24-70mm/f2.8 E and 70-200mm/f2.8 E, both AF-S VR, as the previous non-E versions are very good lenses themselves. And then there are the 8-15mm E fisheye, 28mm/f1.4 E AF-S and 105mm/f1.4 E AF-S. Also the 19mm, 24mm, 45mm, and 85mm PC-E lenses are all E, although there is no AF.

 

As mentioned earlier the fairly new 180-400mm/f4 AF-S VR and the up-coming 500mm/f5.6 PF are also E. Clearly the long end is very well represented by E lenses.

 

P.S. There is also the 16-80mm E DX lens, but I would imagine few would use that on FX bodies (with DX crop).

Excuse my ignorance (sorry did not read every post): What is the [new] "E" adding to a lens? All I know is that just about all my lenses (except the old manual lenses that are no longer used) are compatible with my DLSRS.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Mary Doo

[ShunCheung]

Excuse my ignorance (sorry did not read every post): What is the [new] "E" adding to a lens? All I know is that just about all my lenses (except the old manual lenses that are no longer used) are compatible with my DLSRS.

Mary, back in 2015, I started a thread to explain what Nikon E lenses are:

Nikon E Lenses

 

Again, not to be confused with Nikon Series E lenses from the 1980's.

 

E lenses do not have the legacy mechanical aperture control, dating back to 1959.

 

With three exceptions: the D60, D90, and D3000, all Nikon DSLRs introduced on and after August 23, 2007 (i.e. the D3 and D300) are fully compatible with E lenses and can control their aperture electronically. That includes all Nikon FX-format DSLRs. On incompatible bodies, the lens' aperture is always wide open and cannot be stopped down. As long as you don’t mind using the lens wide open, those combos are functional.

Edited August 21, 2018 by ShunCheung

[mike_halliwell]

I hope the vital importance of the adapter has been fully understood by the Nikon management.

 

If they botch it, it could stop a huge number of shooters dipping their toes into mirrorless waters. It's gotta be bombproof reliable and not stupidy priced.

 

Oh, and does the adapter live on the body or the lens? Answer, it shouldn't matter. There can be no 'assemble' in the right order rubbish. They're trying to attract busy Pros here who don't need the hassle.

 

Similarly you gotta hope for true native wifi, not only the screwed up propriatory mess called Snapbridge.

[Mary Doo]

Mary, back in 2015, I started a thread to explain what Nikon E lenses are:

Nikon E Lenses

 

Again, not to be confused with Nikon Series E lenses from the 1980's.

 

E lenses do not have the legacy mechanical aperture control, dating back to 1959.

 

With three exceptions: the D60, D90, and D3000, all Nikon DSLRs introduced on and after August 23, 2007 (i.e. the D3 and D300) are fully compatible with E lenses and can control their aperture electronically. That includes all Nikon FX-format DSLRs. On incompatible bodies, the lens' aperture is always wide open and cannot be stopped down. As long as you don’t mind using the lens wide open, those combos are functional.

I guess my question is what is the advantage (if any) of making "E" lenses. For example, I am seeing:

• Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Lens ($1,796.95 at B&H) - original, and
  
• Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8E ED VR Lens ($2,396.95 at B&H) - why "E" with increased cost, or is increased cost due to VR only? Or it's because "G" is not compatible with some cameras? It seems these distinctions are unnecessarily complicating the pool of equipment for users.
  

Edited August 21, 2018 by Mary Doo

[heimbrandt]

Mary, the advantage lies in accuracy when shooting with higher frame rates. The lens opens up and stops down between every frame, even on the D5 in its quickest mode. The mechanical spring that stops the aperture down may not be as precise as the electronic aperture control on modern E lenses.

 

Regarding your example; the increased cost is most probably for VR and the new optic formula (E VR version is better) rather than the E itself. Note that the less costly 200-500/5.6 is an E lens, while the expensive 200-400/4 VRII and 300/2.8 VRII are not, so it is not a feature that adds much cost to the lens.

 

mike_halliwell, I would assume it will be like the teleconverters - that it does not matter in what order you mount things.

[mike_halliwell]

Heimbrandt, you know what they say about the dreaded word assume?

[ilkka_nissila]

I would assume it will be like the teleconverters - that it does not matter in what order you mount things.

 

According to Nikon the teleconverter should be mounted on the lens after which the whole is attached to the camera. The reverse operation is in reverse order, i.e. unmount the TC+lens from the camera and then you can unmount the TC from the lens. In some rare cases doing it in the wrong order can allegedly cause some damage, but I suspect most people don't pay attention to it nor experience problems.

why "E" with increased cost

 

I don't think the "E" aperture control itself increases the cost, but the newer lenses tend to be more expensive because they're in some way improved (optics, autofocus, more expensive optical materials etc.), but also likely because Nikon's lens sales have been declining quite fast (partly because the DSLR sales are down but also because of increased competition, third party lenses etc.), so Nikon have to cover the cost of research and development from sales of a smaller number of lenses.

 

Roland Vink's serial number database lists the known serial number ranges for the VR 70-200/2.8G cover 272416 copies, 472239 for VR G II, and only 13445 for the VR FL E version, despite very favourable reviews (see e.g., Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8E FL ED AF-S VR MTF Tests, showing a dramatic improvement at 135mm wide open), also the new version holds focal length true upon close focus. The serial number data may not be complete but it illustrates that there is a great need to maintain G lens compatibility if Nikon want users to adopt their new mirrorless camera. For Nikon the motor to control the aperture should not be a problem as it is present in their FT-1 adapter already.

[BeBu Lamar]

Nikon introduced the E type lenses because it eliminates all mechanical couplings between body and lens. That makes it's easy to adapt to the new Z mount and Canon has done that for their EF lens since 1987.

[ilkka_nissila]

E was introduced first in PC lenses because automatic aperture could not be implemented mechanically. Non-PC E lenses were made to reduce shot to shot exposure variability (with varying success, my experience is that the E lenses tend to have aperture control failure after some exposure to very cold and humid winter conditions; I've seen this with many E lenses repeatedly over the course of the years). So while I don't avoid purchasing E lenses it is not some omnipotent solution to all problems. It does reduce exposure variations when the gear is used in normal temperatures and humidity. Edited August 21, 2018 by ilkka_nissila

[heimbrandt]

Heimbrandt, you know what they say about the dreaded word assume?

That is why I have stayed away from this thread. :)

 

Ilkka, I know the manuals clearly state that you first mount the TC om the lens and then on the camera. But how many users always do that? To be honest, I am curious as to what damage it may cause doing it in the wrong order. As i see it, a mounted TC would just be an extension of the camera when the lens will be mounted and the mounted TC should just be an extension of the lens when it is time to mount it to the camera. That it may cause damage if the TC is not fully mounted to either the body or lens is another matter. Oh, and then there is the question of always turning the camera off before changing lenses...

[mike_halliwell]

Indeed they have.

 

What do you think of the Z>N adapter, the FT-Z......;)