Andrew Garrard Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 What does the "s" in D3s and D4s actually stand for? "Second"? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_halliwell Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) In D3S it differentiates between D3 (MKII) S for Speed and D3 (MKII) X for Xtra Pixels... doesn't it? There never was a D4X, IIRC it was called the D800....:p Edited August 16, 2018 by mike_halliwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBu Lamar Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 So we confirm now it's the Z mount right? As for the S stands for with shutter that would be interesting. So the camera would be shutterless and would work in fully electronic shutter mode most of the time. In some situations you may need the shutter so use a lens with a shutter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 As in shutter speed because of the low light performance? Because the actual frame rate changes were minimal, IIRC. I think the D4s could do 11fps with autofocus rather than 10 for the D4, but it wasn't the "H" difference from the D1/2 series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_halliwell Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Shutterless, mirrorless and whatever else we want to call it that is hasn't got! Why did we never call digital cameras 'Filmless'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBu Lamar Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Shutterless, mirrorless and whatever else we want to call it that is hasn't got! Why did we never call digital cameras 'Filmless'? Because I don't remember exactly but I think Lexar (or was it Sandisk?) called their memory cards "Digital Film". And film stay with us forever in term of language because we're still filming a feature film although the whole process may involve no film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkka_nissila Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I think it would be better to call mirrorless cameras just digital cameras with interchangeable lenses. DSLRs are DSLRs, it's an accurate term though the "single lens" art seems dated and unnecessary to mention as the market for twin lens reflexes isn't very vibrant today, but the term SLR has stayed in contemporary use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) In what way? Maybe I am misunderstanding the intent behind the teaser videos and/or am misinterpreting the messages. I just watched all 6 of the Df teaser videos - the sixth doesn't really count as it is a re-hash of the others - though it does add the rather inciteful statement "every frame is meaningful again". The first video did an excellent job at getting people interested and talking - with audible clues only. Video 2, 3, and 4 provided mostly spoken clues (no images of the camera itself) and video 5 finally showed the first images of camera parts - revealing that it had a shutter speed dial and was AF-capable. Because it ran over a much shorter time period than the current teaser campaign, it held people's attention and it was - despite being the introduction of a retro-style camera - not relying on comparisons or references to Nikon's past and legacy. It was teasing about a unique camera with no competition in the market palce. This time, a new camera is introduced into a market that does have competition and to boot Nikon is introducing a new mount, a move that is guaranteed to cause anxiety among Nikon users. And they keep pushing the message "trust us for the next 100 years" because we have such a great legacy and the new thing will continue were the old thing left off. Wouldn't it be more soothing if they actually had a message why the new thing is necessary and in what way it is going to be better? What does Nikon see as the challenges of the future and how is the new mount addressing them? How does the new thing fit with the existing? How is the new thing's position in regards to the Sony competition? The tease about ultrafast lenses I agree is forward looking but surely cannot be the main reason for Nikon getting into mirrorless (ignoring the Series 1) - especially since the message is water-downed by the fact that the first lens to be introduced is going to be a 24-70/4 "kit" zoom and the rumored prime lenses to be introduced won't be "utlrafast" either. Nikon has always been strangely adverse to compete with itself - and now we are going to have two different camera concepts competing directly with each other. It's going to be obvious that Nikon will have to divert most of their resources to provide a lenses for the new mirrorless - which surely will impact development of new F-mount lenses. Similarly, the design and production of mirrorless camera bodies will have influence on which, if any, DSLRs will be forthcoming and when. I can't say what I would include in the teaser videos - but at least to me the reliance on legacy isn't getting a message across to me but actually makes me wonder if Nikon has a plan for the future. For some time to come, the F-Z adapter performance will be crucial - yet we have not even seen an image of it yet much less any information about it. Sony is at the verge of releasing their 4th generation of FX mirrorless cameras - what does the new Nikon offer that attempts to keep me and other Nikon users in the Nikon camp? Even if the Nikon compares favorably with the A9 - that only puts Nikon back more than 18 months, and at least in some aspects, the newer A7III and A7RIII provide features superior to the A9. In case anyone is interested, here is a list of the written and spoken information of the 4 teaser video released so far - what is the message you get from those? #1 Travel of Light, In Pursuit of Light Countless rays of light travel great distances, finally coming together to create a single image. As Nikon heads into the future, our ongoing mission is to guide light into the formation of truly superb photos and videos. #2 Mount: Gateway to a New Dimension Since the release of the Nikon F, Nikon has built a legacy of incredible cameras and lenses around the iconic F Mount. Building on that technology and DNA, Nikon aims for new, unprecedented heights. We are preparing for the next 100 years by leaping into a new dimension. This new mount is Nikon's response to the challenges of the future. #3 Body: The Evolution of Nikon Quality Nikon continues to push boundaries in pursuit of the perfect camera. This new system is no exception to Nikon’s spirit of ingenuity and manufacturing without compromise. All the expertise Nikon has acquired over the past 100 years has been poured into this camera. #4 Lens: Inspired by Our Legacy. Built for the Future. For over 100 years, NIKKOR lenses have offered photographers limitless ways to express themselves. At the heart of their journey is the desire to seek out and control the essence of light. As we embark on our next 100 years, these lenses are a new symbol of Nikon's quest for optical perfection. Edited August 16, 2018 by Dieter Schaefer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkka_nissila Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) Dieter, I just get the message that they are hyping the new camera and trying to build interest in it. Apparently quite successfully. That they talk about the next 100 years suggests they have the same idea as I do regarding how long it will take to build a new system from scratch - several decades if not a hundred years. Thus it doesn't seem very relevant to someone like myself in middle age - I will likely never see the new system in full capacity. I enjoy not only the optical viewfinder but many of the diverse optics Nikon made in the last 40 or so years. I don't believe the adapter will five native like performance of the AF system. The new cameras if I buy one of them, would be mainly used with dedicated lenses that provide some added value that I cannot get on the DSLR side. " Nikon will have to divert most of their resources to provide a lenses for the new mirrorless - which surely will impact development of new F-mount lenses. Similarly, the design and production of mirrorless camera bodies will have influence on which, if any, DSLRs will be forthcoming and when." Apart from the teaser videos largely void of information, Nikon have stated: "Nikon will continue to lead imaging culture with the launch of this new mirrorless camera, as well as with the continued development of Nikon digital SLR cameras, providing consumers with the choice of enjoying the unique values of either system." As long as not stated otherwise, I'll take their word for it. If you want to doubt it, that's your prerogative, of course. I don't think Nikon can expect immediate success with the new system because it takes many years to build it. They seem to agree, judging from their financial predictions which basically predict continuing reduction of sales in volume. Since Nikon no longer put out all those many variations of 18-xxx zooms, and Coolpix development seems largely on hold, I am sure Nikon have plenty of resources to develop new lenses. In the restructure it seemed that they combined their camera optics and industrial optics divisions, which also should make it easier to design lenses with all the best technology the company has available, and help move from wobbly consumer superzooms into high end precision optics. As for the 24-70/4, I assume it will be of very high quality simply because they did not make it a 24-85 or 24-120. By reducing the range, a much better quality optic can be offered. Canon's 24-70/4 L ranks very highly indeed in lenscore testing and I assume Nikon will not want to be worse. For years I have hoped Nikon to make one, but they haven't on the DSLR side, and the only really good standard zoom they offer is the 24-70/2.8. On mirrorless, the more compact f/4 is appropriate because it will help achieve the stated/expected advantage of mirroress: smaller camera and lens. "what does the new Nikon offer that attempts to keep me and other Nikon users in the Nikon camp?" Well, we know already that it has a beefy grip and some Nikon-like controls (except the left hand side AF selector which is not present; in fact it seems the left side of the camera is quite small) so people who like the UI and controls of Nikon DSLRs probably will feel at home with the new camera and I would guess it will be more comfortable to use with large lenses than the current Sony E mount cameras. I have seen A7 series with short lens used side by side with telephoto attached to A99II, suggesting that at least some Sony users also find the larger body preferred for telephoto work. This gets discussed on forums quite regularly. So, better handling, maybe. Likely start up times will be typical Nikon ie. very short and CF express and XQD cards mean a swift clearing of the buffer. Likely if you have recent Nikon AF lenses such as 200-500/5.6 or 300 PF, you can expect better performance with the Nikon body and adapter than on third party cameras and adapters. I don't understand why you think the new Nikons will be behind the Sonys in features. The D850 is quite advanced and surely we can expect the mirrorless to be at least as loaded. It has features that I like that Sony do not as of yet offer. For example I routinely use the split display zoom feature and enjoy the large, high resolution monitor for tripod based work. Automatic focus stacking is great for some subjects. Start up times and writing to memory card are fast. Thousands of shots on a small battery, the larger battery permits so many shots that it takes me weeks to empty it. Large and well spaced controls. I may be in the minority but I really like modern Nikon lenses and also some of the older ones. If none of these features are of interest to you then by all means choose another camera. For me it would be preferable if an optical viewfinder of some kind were offered; Fuji has put in some effort to this end but IMO the success is only partial. Canon have a patent on optical viewfinder for mirrorless, that will be interesting to see. It shows there is some interest, when the almost dominant ILC market leader studies the problem of how to do it enough to apply for a patent. Since I like Nikon optics it is strange to me to hear the question of what is the value of this new system, but I know that preferences differ and some like Sony, Zeiss, Fuji, Olympus or Canon more. Increasing the choice in systems is great. Edited August 16, 2018 by ilkka_nissila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dieter Schaefer Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 The new cameras if I buy one of them, would be mainly used with dedicated lenses that provide some added value that I cannot get on the DSLR side. Pretty much my approach with the Sony A7RIII - 12-24/4 combo - though there is a Sigma option for DSLR (larger and heavier than the Sony though). If I had more sense, I'd glue that camera-lens-combo to a tripod in which case the not-so-great ergonomics of the Sony body no longer matters (and is replaced by the much more awkward handling of the tripod setup). Pardon me that I haven't waited for Nikon to deliver a similar combo. If you want to doubt it, that's your prerogative, of course I'm not doubting Nikon's statements - I just try to put them into real life context. We'll see soon enough how Nikon distributes the resources among the F and Z mount cameras and lenses. As for the 24-70/4, I assume it will be of very high quality simply because they did not make it a 24-85 or 24-120. By reducing the range, a much better quality optic can be offered. Sony/Zeiss unfortunately have proven that one can screw up a 24-70/4. I certainly share your hope that Nikon will finally make a mid-range non-f/2.8 zoom that matches the performance of the larger brethren. Sony just showed that they can make a better 24-105/4 than a 24-70/4, so shorter range not automatically translates into better quality. I always considered 24-70 a bit limited on the long side - a 24-85 seems like a better compromise for me. Nikon's 24-85 unfortunately performs worse than the 24-120 (which gets into trouble at the long end) - and in the end with all things equal consider 24-105 a good compromise. I don't understand why you think the new Nikons will be behind the Sonys in features. T I have said before that I expect the Nikon mirrorless to match D850 performance and exceed it with regards to video and live view AF. Which also means that it will be a good competitor to the a7RIII and if there's indeed a lower-MP version released simultaneously, the A7III too. I was, however, referring to the 18-months old A9 (and fully expect Sony to come out with a A9II soon) - which sets the bar high with black-out-free EVF and the stacked sensor. I don't see how one can be had without the other and I doubt Nikon has currently access to a stacked sensor (though I hope they prove me wrong in less than a week's time). And if I am not mistaken, the only feature the A7III and A7RIII have that puts them ahead of the A9 is the 10fps with mechanical shutter (the A9 can only do 5fps in that mode). And there is the pixel shift feature which I am not sure is implemented in which model (believe the A7RIII only). One thing Nikon is definitely going to be ahead on is RAW lossless compressed - something Sony hasn't figured out how to do yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Ingold Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Silent photography is a nice feature but why is the fast electronic shutter restricted to one (very expensive) model (the A9)? If they can do it with a 24MP sensor why not in the A7 III? Since technology for the manufacture the A9 sensor exists, surely making more of them is relatively inexpensive. Few people actually can afford an A9. The image is stripped much faster from the A9 sensor than the A7iii or A7Riii, due to a sandwiched processor. The A7Riii is no slouch at 10 fps in silent mode. The only catch is 12 bit instead of 14 bit, true for silent running in any model. The incremental cost of various features is a closely held industrial secret. Perhaps features are omitted so a lower cost model doesn't compete with the top version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben_hutcherson Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Another unlikely meaning of the S- In the old days, Nikkor lenses had a letter abbreviation to designate(in Greek) how many elements were in the lens. A Nikkor-S lens would be a 7 element lens. I doubt that's what it means in this case, though, since I seriously doubt that zoom could be made with that few elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkka_nissila Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I was, however, referring to the 18-months old A9 (and fully expect Sony to come out with a A9II soon) - which sets the bar high with black-out-free EVF and the stacked sensor. I don't see how one can be had without the other and I doubt Nikon has currently access to a stacked sensor (though I hope they prove me wrong in less than a week's time). I don't think Nikon will be targeting the A9 with these first-generation FX mirrorless cameras. The technology for the "near global" shutter is only available with the A9 and some very expensive video cameras, and it is not clear whether Nikon have this technology and/or are willing to pay for the cost. Furthermore there seems to be a slight base ISO dynamic range penalty for the (near) global shutter (fast cameras don't seem to excel at base ISO DR in general), and Nikon is generally trying to provide the best dynamic range (and image quality in general) for the intended applications. Also in video cameras with global shutter option, the global shutter variants have lower dynamic range than the slower electronic shutter models. Since the new Nikon mirrorless won't initially have native long lenses available for it, and even the basic zoom will be f/4 and not f/2.8, it doesn't make sense to offer an expensive A9 style camera without typical lenses used by action photographers. If the camera with fast electronic shutter could be made for a lower price (such as $2000-$3000) then it might make sense to provide it for general photography, but I doubt that it will be that inexpensive, and people would complain about the reduced dynamic range. Many people seem to have difficulty understanding that engineering involves making the right compromises for the intended applications and they want (and think they deserve) a best-of-everything in one camera. I am sure that both Nikon and Canon are developing their own answers to the A9 but as of now I have failed to see the A9's presence at any sports event that I have gone to, and in fact I've never seen the camera outside of a camera store. I do not think the A9 is the primary worry of Nikon. The A7 family is the one that is selling well and should be their target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkka_nissila Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 The incremental cost of various features is a closely held industrial secret. Perhaps features are omitted so a lower cost model doesn't compete with the top version? But if Sony wanted to storm the market they could do that by putting the speed of the A9's sensor (and the impacts on silent photography, the EVF etc.) into the A7 III. Once Nikon and Canon have this technology, Sony won't be able to market it as an exclusive. Thus I think the time for them to make money off this invention is now and not in five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_halliwell Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 The lack of native z mount lenses is going to make the F>Z adapter CRUCIAL and affordable. Even if they sell them at cost to drum up early sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBu Lamar Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 The lack of native z mount lenses is going to make the F>Z adapter CRUCIAL and affordable. Even if they sell them at cost to drum up early sales. But I would bet that the adapter is in the $400 range and not cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_halliwell Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 How about a Coolpix Z ie an FX Coolpix A? Fixed 28mm f1.4? Bit too niche maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Well, Sony have the RX1, and Leica have the Q. But given that my main objection to the Coolpix A is that it's a lot bigger than an RX100 with a less flexible lens, I'm not sure expanding the sensor would help much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_halliwell Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 The other Nikon MILC, the Nikon 1 series, whilst now dead, had a fun 1000fps slo-mo feature. It recorded a very letterboxy format, but worked well enough. Indeed, it worked very well with a J5 + FT1+ 70-300MM AFS VR (at 135mm) at a cricket match the other day. Any thoughts on the data throughput and the electronic shutter needed for FHD 1000fps on the new Z6? Slo-mo may be thought of as gimmeky, but just how mainstream is focus-stacking and that's sure to be there as it was in the D850. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkka_nissila Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 High frame rates are harder to implement with a large sensor than a small sensor. But this is the direction where things are going; more video-like features in mirrorless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Garrard Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Harder because of the time for signals to transfer across the sensor. Stacked sensor tech may help. I guess we'll find out as tech advances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkka_nissila Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Harder because of the time for signals to transfer across the sensor. Stacked sensor tech may help. I guess we'll find out as tech advances. Also because larger sensors typically have more pixels. If they go with dual or quadruple pixel AF then they might have an 90 or 180 million photosite sensor, now that would be quite an ordeal to read at 1000fps and produce a perfect video feed. :-) If the processors are not busy enough, add AF between frames. A purpose made camera with only e.g. 8MP would surely be able to do slow motion easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_halliwell Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 I'm hoping that's what the 'low res' Z6 is capable of....:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShunCheung Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) Nikon breaks the one-teaser-per-week pattern and sends out (I believe) one final teaser about photographers that have used the new mirrorless camera: Breaking News And once again, there isn't much in the teaser. The actual announcement is merely a couple of days away. Edited August 20, 2018 by ShunCheung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_halliwell Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 Seriously, where is the adapter between the 180-400mm f4 F mount lens and the Z mount body @ 0.37 in the new teaser? Unless it's got lenses, it has to be about 30mm 'long' hasn't it? F flange of 46.5mm and probable Z mount of somewhere between 16 and 19mm. ...or maybe it's got a 'medium format' flange distance around 20-25mm like the Hassie XCD or Fuji G? From the vid. I still don't get why 'it's so lightweight'? I mean, the mirror and mechanism and penta thingy are hardly weighty? ....and as for all the 'super-sharp' verbals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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