Used equipment/chemicals - pros and cons?

[brenda_nelson]

<p>I'm interested in developing my own film and am relatively new to the whole process. I've grasped a basic understanding of how it all works but would appreciate some more info from those of you who have experience. Developing the film seems like the least expensive part of the process and requires the least amount of space. <br>

I have some specific questions that I can't find internet answers to.<br>

After the film is developed, what's the best next step? Should I invest in an enlarger and all the stuff that goes with it? Or should I invest in a good neg scanner then have prints made at a local photo printer? <br>

I also found used darkroom equipment for sale on craigslist and am considering it. Other threads have given me great insite on enlargers. However, what about buying used trays, reels, tanks, and chemicals? One person is selling the whole lot, and I've mostly got questions about the chemicals. He said they were 5-6 yrs old. Should used trays etc be cleaned in some way before using?<br>

I'm shooting my first roll of 120, and of course 35mm. I also have classic cameras that use 110, 126, and 127 and would be interested in developing those as well. I figure I'll have to buy the correct reels for those at a later time.<br>

I'm very much an amateur so would like beginner's equipment. After several months of researching this, I'd like to pick up some items this weekend, since I'll be in a town with a great store for the basics (if I buy new). Thanks all.</p>

[lynn_washington]

<p>My personal preference would always be to do my own printing, which obviously means access to a darkroom, whether in my own house or at school or wherever. However, if you do decide to install a darkroom in your house, keep this <em>very</em> important fact in mind: <strong>DEPENDING ON THE AGE OF YOUR HOUSE, YOU WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO REPLACE THE PLUMBING THAT WOULD BE AFFECTED BY THE CHEMICALS BEING POURED DOWN THE DRAIN. </strong> Even though I have permission from my landlord to install a darkroom in the basement, since the house is around 90 years old, I would have to replace most of the plumbing in the basement because of the chemicals. I was advised of this showstopper by the person who oversees the photo labs at the school I've been studying at. They had to replace a large amount of the plumbing a few years ago because of the B&W Darkroom at the downtown campus. Needless to say, I have not yet installed the darkroom in the basement. If I ever can buy the house, then I will. Until that day happens, I'll scrounge for a darkroom elsewhere.</p>

<b><i>Moderator's note: Please see follow up response citing Kodak's technical documents regarding appropriate handling and disposal of darkroom photo chemistry, Kodak publication J-300 "Environmental Guidelines for Amateur Photographers."</b>-- LJ</i>

[kari v]

<blockquote>

<p>After the film is developed, what's the best next step? Should I invest in an enlarger and all the stuff that goes with it? Or should I invest in a good neg scanner then have prints made at a local photo printer?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Depends, I do both.<br>

Difficult negs may become much more usable with scanning and post work, making Big prints is much easier and spotting dust is fast and accurate.<br>

But then again good scanners are not free and scanning is not easy. Also, it's pretty time consuming.<br>

Flatbed scanners work for small prints and web but don't expect miracles. Softer output means more post work and tricky sharpening. With 120 things are better if you don't want to go very large.</p>

<p>Buy the whole lot if you can, it can be surprisingly costly to search for the items separately. Don't bother with the chemicals. Fresh stuff is not that expensive.<br>

Should you clean the trays etc.? Well, yes, of course.</p>

<p>Basic Paterson Universal kit comes with two reels that take 35mm, 120 and third size I'm not sure of what it is, slightly larger than 35mm. Tank holds 2x135 or 1x120.<br>

Costs something like $30 I guess.</p>

<p>After you get the film chems sorted you only need to buy paper developer, fix and stop are the same for both.</p>

[nbg90455]

<p>Whether you want to "go darkroom" or scanner is really a personal choice. I spend a lot of time on the computer for work already (and wouldn't want to add to that at home), so getting a proper darkroom was a no-brainer for me.<br>

Here are my recommendations (and a reflection what I did a couple of years ago):<br>

- chemicals: definitely NEW only (too cheap to worry about messed up chemicals)<br>

- enlarger: definitely USED only (price difference is just too big). The timer, grain finder, easels etc. can be used if they are in clean usable condition.<br>

- trays/reels/wet supplies: I got them all new, but clean(!) used ones probably would work, too. I would make sure that the former owner labelled them (dev, stop, fix etc.) to avoid any contamination. Cleaning of these supplies just with lots of water. <br>

As far as Lynn's suggestions on the plumbing, I wouldn't worry about it, given that you're just souping up a few rolls/trays each week (as opposed to having a professional lab in your house). But then I own my house, so I am responsible for my own damages, rather than having to face an angry landlord ;-)<br>

Enjoy the ride!</p>

 

[peterbcarter]

<p>I opted not to do any wet printing, so no darkroom for me. The thing was I always sucked in that end. Scanner any day of the week.</p>

<p>Because no darkroom, I only needed a light bag, tanks/reels and chemicals. Oh, and a place to hang the negs to dry. With all new stuff (not including scanner) only came to $100. Including splurging on a good film washer. That was my no brainer. I just negotiate for the Kitchen, but anywhere there is a sink and counter will do.</p>

<p>That plumbing thing is funny. My Chilli is more corosive than this stuff.</p>

[frank.schifano]

<p>I'm thinking that the studients using the school's film lab are not the most careful of people around. Simple precautions like flusing the drain with copious amounts of water go a long way in avoiding plumbing problems. I live in a 70 year old house. My darkroom is in the basement. I have no problems with corroded pipes, and the waste mains are pipes are all cast iron. I do flush the drains with lots of water whenever I send something down. You can even dump the waste into the toilet and flush it a few times. That works too.</p>

[bgelfand]

<p>I set up a darkroom in my home a few years ago. I purchased all the equipment used from the rental darkroom I had been using before it closed. I have a well used Beseler 23CII enlarger with both 50mm and 80mm lenses and used trays and graduates for measuring the chemicals.</p>

<p>They trays were stained from years of use but all they have to do is hold the chemicals. Wash them out after every use and they will be fine. The one thing that ruins a tray is leaking. The same goes for the graduates.</p>

<p>As for problems with the plumbing; there is none. The rental darkroom I used was in an old building and had been there for many years. There was no problem with the plumbing. Kodak use to have a position paper about this on their web site. The only warning was not to flush chemicals into septic systems; there were no problems if you were attached to a municipal sewer system. As Frank wrote (above) flush the drain well with tap water.</p>

 

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>Used trays, tanks, reels:<br>

Should be free of stains or residue. Brown and/or white spots are leftover chemicals that were not washed off after use and can be very hard to wash off after they have dried.<br>

Tanks should not have any deep scratches on the inside or cracks. Stainless steel tanks and reels are the best.<br>

Reels should not be bent or deformed. No cracks on plastic reels. Twist to load should operate smoothly.<br>

Wash all new or used trays, tanks and reels in very hot soapy water using a good dish detergent such as Dawn. For used equipment with a few chemical stains or residue let it soak until the residue comes off, rinse well. Wash all trays, tongs, tanks, reels, mixing beakers, stirring rods in very warm or hot soapy water and rinse thoroughly with warm or hot water at the end of each processing session.<br>

Hang freshly processed film and prints in a dust free place to dry. Cut film into strips and put into archival film sleeves when dry.</p>

[kari v]

<blockquote>

<p>Stainless steel tanks and reels are the best.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Matter of taste. There's nothing wrong with plastic per se and thousands of forum posts prove it.<br>

Plastic can break - steel can bend.<br>

Steel reels are more difficult to load - no it's the other way around.<br>

Steel looks cool - ok, you got me there.<br>

;)</p>

 

[the world in black white]

<p>Regarding septic tanks: I have been flushing darkroom chemicals into my septic tank for 17 years with no apparent ill effects on either the plumbing or the septic tank. The chemicals are diluted by all of the other waste water that goes into the septic tank. Lex has discussed this in previous posts.</p>

[JDMvW]

<p>If you go the route of a full darkroom with enlarger and all, definitely look on Craigslist since otherwise shipping costs from any distance at all will be astronomical.</p>

<p>I wish I could say that there's no substitute for having your own darkroom and printing your own pictures as you like. However unless you really want the <em>authentic</em> experience, everything is so much easier in digital manipulation. Many of us are not so much film devotees as we are old camera fans. Since shooting them means using film, we use film. However, after developing, I scan with a high-quality scanner. Sorry to bring this unpleasantness up on this forum, but Brenda needs to know that it's not all one nor the other.</p>

<p>From things that he said about Polaroid and other hints of the future, I very much suspect that today even Ansel Adams would be doing his darkroom work in digital.</p>

[brenda_nelson]

<p>Thank you all for your answers. It sounds like printing my pictures or scanning them is certainly something that depends on the individual. Eventually I'd like to have both! <br>

Charles - thanks for all the tips on the trays/tanks etc...now I know what to look for and will make sure that everything isn't too stained/cracked/bent etc. I wondered if washing in soap was good or bad because I didn't know if anyone had problems with soap residue. I had assumed after each use that one heck of a good rinse was the key. Yep...I'm definitely a newbie!<br>

Someone is selling the whole lot for $40 including an enlarger (which I think is a Beseler 35 printmaker, although someone else has a 23C listed a day later on craigslist). It might be worth it, but I'll inspect things first. Since it seems that the enlargers are cheaper to get started with, I may print then save up for a scanner that's a little higher in quality. <br>

Thanks again everyone...I really appreciate the feedback!</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Rather than debate someone else's opinion about safety and health issues concerning handling and disposal of darkroom chemicals (and that includes my own opinions) I would always defer to the experts - the manufacturers of those materials. In this case Kodak has the most extensively documented system in the world, with all information available through their website.</p>

<p>See: <a href="http://www.kodak.com/global/en/corp/environment/kes/pubs/pdfs/j300.pdf">Kodak publication <strong>J-300 Environmental Guidelines for Amateur Photographers</strong> </a><br>

(Note that this is a PDF document.)</p>

<p>In J-300 Kodak states <em>"If you are on a sewer system, the best way—and the most appropriate—is to dispose of your photographic processing effluent through the sewer system. Most photographic processing solutions are biodegradable and are effectively treated when discharged to (Publicly Owned Treatment Works)."</em></p>

<p>I can find no documentation from a credible source that states that the photo chemistry used in a typical amateur darkroom would require the replacement of a plumbing system. If anyone on the forum is aware of such documentation I would like to add it to my list of references.</p>

<p>References from credible sources such as Kodak point out that certain chemicals, such as selenium toners, should not be disposed of through sewers or septic systems, but for environmental reasons and not due to any concerns about damage to plumbing.</p>

<p>Kodak also recommends that stop bath be neutralized with ordinary household baking soda, a simple, common sense solution.</p>

<p>Since stop bath diluted to working strength is comparable to household distilled white vinegar, <em>in my opinion</em> (note the stress on my opinion), even this step is unnecessary. When I lived in a rural home for many years with a septic system I poured most chemicals down the drain, flushed with water, and not once in almost three decades did we have any problems with the septic system.</p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>I have both stainless and plastic (Jobo). I prefer the stainless for 35 and 120 and the Jobo for larger.<br>

Brenda, when doing darkroom work use the tray for a specific purpose consistently. Don't use a tray for developer one time and fixer the next. Discoloration from chemicals is normal and should not be confused with stains from poor cleaning.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>On the Chemistry, I would concur with Lex and the Kodak resources. I have found similar information in Ilford packaging. For color chemistry, I take away what little I have to a community disposing facility; I have few qualms about the black and white materials; but, this is based on what I use and my situation. I read the fact sheets on my chemicals; and make basic common sense decisions about what to do about them.</p>

<p>My county public works offers a "Hazmat Saturday" where residential customers can drop off poisons at a drive-up station, free of charge. You ought to see some of the stuff that comes in. I'd say that most of the household chemicals that homeowners leave behind, in bulk, when they sell or leave their home, are more of a chemical hazard than a 1/4 cup of Dektol. Check to see if your sanitation people offer something similar if you get into handling materials that need firm safeguards during disposal.</p>

<p>For the used equipment, congratulations. You are living in the heyday of used darkroom equipment. Some people rarely used theirs to begin with, and most, if not all, of it is available at about 30% of its cost new. Basic common sense inspection of the appliance you are about to buy should cover most of your purchasing needs. Only point I seem to notice about used enlargers, beyond photography specifics, is to check the base of the cord. Sometimes where the electrical cord enters the lamp housing, the cable may show some wear from being in one position too long. Might need a minor repair or replacement. 15 minutes and a trip to the hardware store. Hey, they left it sitting there for years before they sold it. Just like buying any other used household appliance.</p>

[doremus_scudder1]

<p>Lex,</p>

<p>You are correct that Kodak recommends neutralizing stop bath before discarding in J-300. However, my reading of the document is that neutralization is necessary only for the concentrated stock solutions before dilution (i.e., the product that Kodak actually sells) which is quite acidic. Working strength stop is les acidic than vinegar, so should be no problem dumping down the drain. Besides, if one uses a product like Indicator Stop Bath till it begins to change color (or uses any stop bath to near exhaustion), the acidity is way down and there is absolutely no danger dumping it down the drain.</p>

<p>Best,</p>

<p>Doremus Scudder</p>

[christer_almqvist2]

<p>Nobody seems to have noticed that Kodak say discharge fixer to sewer "AFTER SILVER RECOVERY". </p>

[jennifer_spencer]

<blockquote>

<p>After the film is developed, what's the best next step? Should I invest in an enlarger and all the stuff that goes with it? Or should I invest in a good neg scanner then have prints made at a local photo printer?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Good questions Brenda. If you have not really done much of your own printing at all, I would suggest a little time trying it out in a rental darkroom. If you like it, then go for it. Otherwise it's a lot of equipment that may or may not get used.</p>

<p>Personally, I do all my own printing, and I enjoy doing it by hand in a darkroom. I work in computers all day long so the analog process is a welcome change, for me. While I own my very tiny house, I have decided not to install my darkroom for now. Why? The smells will get into the drywall and before long the whole place will smell of fixer. Now, I do develop my own film at home on the kitchen counter (after I put away all the bread & tomatoes). But unless I have a cordoned-off area, I won't do my own darkroom. At some point, I may run a hose to a shed in the backyard and set it all up with decent ventilation. </p>

<p>Scanning is fine, but w/out a dedicated film scanner I have had a hard time dealing with the dust. I agree that it is a godsend for me when I have severly underexposed a negative. I usually scan my prints instead if I just need them for the web. </p>

<p>There is nothing like doing your own printing. Digital or darkroom, you have so much more control over the outcome. The difference is night and day after just a little while. I think you'll enjoy it. </p>

<p>For disposal, I use the fixer in the same bottle until it's dead and take it to my local hazmat station. The dev & stop go down the drain.</p>

[the world in black white]

<p>Lex: I apologize for dragging you into this.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Thanks for the clarification, Doremus.</p>

<p>Christer, most of us are aware of the silver recovery issue. I didn't quote the entire technical bulletin verbatim because it's better for those who are curious to check the original sources for themselves.</p>

<p>Donald, not a problem. It's helpful to discuss these issues periodically when folks who are new to the darkroom have these questions.</p>

[peterbcarter]

<p>Silver recovery? How are we supposed to do that?</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Kodak to the rescue, once again: <a href="http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQuerier.jhtml?pq-path=4234&pq-locale=en_US"><strong>Silver recovery</strong> </a> .</p>

<p>Say what you will about Kodak bailing out on traditional b&w photography. They still have a lot of useful technical information.</p>

[robert_marvin]

<p>"<strong>DEPENDING ON THE AGE OF YOUR HOUSE, YOU WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO REPLACE THE PLUMBING THAT WOULD BE AFFECTED BY THE CHEMICALS BEING POURED DOWN THE DRAIN".</strong></p>

<p>So THAT'S why I had to replace the pipes in my 110 year old house. <br /></p>

<p>Seriously though, this is one of the silliest statements I've ever read on any photography forum [and,while I've replaced all the lead water supply pipedswithcopper, most of the 110 year old waste pipes remain and have not yet been destroyed by photographic chemicals].<br /></p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Ouch. Let's go easy on Lynn. As far as I can tell Lynn's just quoting information from the darkroom supervisor at school.</p>

<p>I'm still waiting for Peter to post his chili recipe. Sounds good if it's dangerous to plumbing.</p>

[peterbcarter]

<blockquote>

<p>I'm still waiting for Peter to post his chili recipe. Sounds good if it's dangerous to plumbing.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sorry, I can't take responsibility for your plumbing.... :)</p>