ADMIN: Guidelines for Adhering to Topic

[fate_faith_change_chains]

Much ado about nothing...

[Allen Herbert]

Hey, after the rain.........<div></div>

[brambor]

This thread shows that we are either all kids in a sandbox or we are adults with immature ticks. That includes the moderators as well.

 

The majority of Leicas run on film. Therefore the it is safe to assume the membership here will have a slight preference for film. I would like to see the moderators whip those who don't participate here, yet those who feel the urge to come here and call us wankers and losers.

Nothing good comes out of that behavior. It only starts a flame war.

 

Those who don't contribute here should also not be allowed to jump in everytime someone speaks their preference to film. All they do is to come here and start a flame war. There aren't any LF members jumping onto a digital photography forum and posting one liners about how digital sucks.

[lee hamiel]

Firstly - Tony - Thank you for your work here - politically speaking it's like being a mayor in New York for you dealing with the Leica forum - not easy and an educated group as well.

 

Secondly - As Tony said in his posting - he's pretty laid back about things here - let's let it go & continue & not feel as though we're losing a buck an hour - let him say his piece & respect it - as opposed to testing the threshold as to - "what about this?" & "what about that?" kind of response.

 

I have to admit that although I enjoy these forums I end up more often feeling like so many are trying to resolve past issues or anger - and way to many people are attached to the "brand name" of their choice. I use Leica, Linhof & Nikon & only choose the cameras that serve me best for the given situation.

 

It's my opinion that we should all try to get along ... - relax & ask for help here and there - offer assistance when you can ... - and leave the bad attitudes out of it - if your response is not beneficial to the thread then stay out of it - email the person in question & leave us out of it & go nuts on your own terms. This is why I don't come here to witness the "Hardball Leica Forum" where people treat others as lowlifes for having posed such a ... question.

 

Lutz recently had some very good constructive critisim's regarding how the threads get out of hand & leave the issue of the original question in the dust and go on and on and on ... in the wrong direction. Kudos Lutz.

 

My feeling when it comes to opinions is that the discussion should serve to enlight other's thoughts as to such - but it so often ends up being a raging battle between two people's opinions. For those that choose to engage in such a way I say - get a room & go away once the attitudes escalate & let it go - does it really matter? You will never convince this person as to why you or your opinion is right - just let it go ... .

 

Back to Tony - I'm surprised that you have not killed this thread thus far but based on the "testing the limits" posters I guess they don't get it & feel threatened & are afraid they can't go there down the road & just don't get it.

 

People - we are not in line at Wal-Mart waiting to return mechandise - we are lucky to have a forum like this where we can openly discuss our hobby whether we pay a fee or not & note that the professionals would never waste their time on these issues.

 

If your want to help or learn - go there & enjoy.

 

If anyone is annoyed with me feel free to email me offline -

 

Best Regards to all

[bobatkins]

Digital is here. Get used to it. Leica have (almost) a digital back for the R9. There are Leica digital cameras (well, digital cameras with "Leica" printed on them) and digital cameras which use Leica lenses. Leica digital posts belong here, like it or not.

 

Nobody needs to "qualify" to post here. Everyone is welcome as long as they are civil to other forum members. All views are welcome as long as they aren't simply posted in order to start an argument. You don't need to be an expert to have an opinion.

 

If you want a film-only totally digital-free Leica forum, you're welcome to start one. This isn't it.

 

However this also isn't the place for endless film vs. digital debates. I'm sure the moderators will moderate those threads in an appropriate manner. Personally I usually toss them into the non-archived forum where they die a natural death in 48 hrs.

[al_kaplan1]

I love that Photoshopped pic of me with the two pancakes on my head! Great! But if you used 2 pancakes with Eastman Double-X would you use 3 with Tri-X? I'm sure glad that they stopped making Panatomic-X ~ it might look like dandruff!

[kent_tolley2]

<i>Eric ~ , feb 28, 2005; 02:50 p.m.<BR>

 

The guidelines are fine. The forum is fine. The same thing happened last year about this time. Threads got deleted, people left, moderators started talking about rules, and everyone was yelling and voicing opinions. This is an eclectic forum and the more interference the mods put in the sandbox, the less and less people play in the sandbox. Its simple, just delete the threads that contain swearing and insults and any resulting stupid thread that may be sparked from it and stop trying to fix something that works and let us get on with it. What's this place going to look like in a couple of years if you keep getting get tighter and tighter? The whole essence of this place is it loseness and diverse bunch. And reinstate the polar opposite to Al, Grant, while your at it.</i>

[Allen Herbert]

There's a thought.

[socke]

Bob, it seems to me as if one has to qualify for this forum.

 

This used to be a fun place and I did learn a lot but as I traded my IIIf against a Contax TVS which I use together with a Contax G2 I don't feel welcome here anymore. Especialy after reading this thread.

[brambor]

Bob, no one suggested that this is to be film only forum. The observation was there are some people who never contribute here yet they only show up to leave a sarcastic or insulting remark. It would be nice to admit that this behavior is not a hallmark of good manners and deal with it swiftly.

[bobatkins]

Rene - you're asking for the moderators to read the mind of posters, i.e. infer their reasons for posting. You really want moderators desciding what your motives are when you post and removing your comments if they don't think they were made in the right spirt even if their wording wasn't provocative? You can have that, but I don't think you'd like the consequences and I don't think the moderators would want to do it.

 

Volker - that's a pity. It's not the way it should be and it's not the way it's intended to be. Perhaps we need a "non-Leica Rangefinders" Forum, where everyone except for Leica owners would be welcome? I can easily create one if the demand is there and owners of such camers no longer feel welcome here.

[brambor]

I understand your point Bob. My intentions for posting are positive. I was merely talking about a scenario like this:

 

poster #1:

I was wondering whether anyone had an experience with the Titanium version of M6?

 

poster #2:

Yeah. Like some someone really needs a Titanium to fondle, you wanker!

 

;-)

 

There is no need to read minds in these situations but I guess it is asking for too much.

[al_kaplan1]

I still shoot. I'm just not booked solid with assignments. I was shooting today on the beach, partly cloudy, hazy sun, 79 degrees, 15 MPH west wind. I'm spending more time in the darkroom printing old stuff. I still spend several days a month running film through the Leicas I have a few hundred images picked out that I want to print, and still haven't gone through the 120 film contact sheets yet, mostly from the 60's and 70's when a lot of editors still wanted the larger negative whenever possible.

[ray .]

Some people think talking about photography is talking about gear and some think it's talking about photographs. The gear people have won out on this forum; the people interested in making and sharing good photographs are going to the street forum.

[bobatkins]

Rene - your point is well taken and the example you cite is one where a moderator could, and probably would, clearly step in.

 

However, like I said earlier. Moderators are generally volunteers who have to work for a living. So it could be hours, possibly sometimes even days, before they saw the posting, even assuming they have the time to read every single post on the forum.

 

In that time World War III has usually broken out.

 

The correct response to such a comment would be to totally ignore it, but I'm afraid that the day that this forum shows that degree of self control, hell will probably freeze over and further discussion of forum activities will be moot.

[abufletcher]

Bob, you say that we are just going to have to decide what kind of cameras

we will discuss. Why does the photography pie have to be split up like this?

 

I mean I can understand that as photographers we often have questions and

opinions about the gear we use but aren't discussions about the use of

equipment -- and the aesthetic values that underlie that use -- as vital as talk

about the gear itself? The reason I found myself gravitating to the Leica

Forum vs. other PNET forum is because it seems to be the one place with they

actual issues of photography are discussed. That and the fact that there are a

WHOLE LOT more actual photos posted here than on any other forum.

[lutz]

Hmm, 2 Eurocents, anybody?<br>I notice that a good number of Leicaforum regulars are having quite some fun <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BJvJ">across the corridor</a>, and frankly, their pics rock! Reading the names of the posters over there, in the Street&Documentary Forum, I have the impression that many of those who have expressed problems with the at times restrictive policy here in the past have found a new home...<p>In fact, I think it has been a very beneficial move to re-baptise the People Photography Forum and give the kind of photography that has historically been the domain of RFs (but only until the advent of SLRs with fast and good lenses) a more democratic and modern place, free of any brand related ties. My prediction is, that just by the drift of people being attracted by this new playground a lot of tension which has arisen within this forum here lately will be taken off. In fact, I guess that many of us might want to bookmark both of the forums as our future favourites...? I will.<p>That might leave just the silly digital vs. film debate unanswered. Well, I guess that will have to be our common fate. In times of a change of paradigm, there always is struggle, within and amongst each of us. But any attitude of superiority (on whichever side) appears to be just plain stupid, more so in the light of Leica having flirted and still going on to flirt with digital technology. Fifteen years ago we wouldn't have dreamed to be sitting in front of computers, exchanging pictures - digitally. And to be discussing them more or less in realtime, worldwide. Today, we already take this technology for granted, which allows us to rant pro and against traditional as well as current and upcoming photographic techniques...<p>My point is, there's so much to be discovered, old and new. Beginners learning traditional knowledge and veterans stupefied by what can be achieved with the most modern gear. There's room for all of us, and for a little bit of respect, isn't there? I remember Al posting that he would be gladly willing to embrace digital publishing of his vintage negs and slides to be able to better share his body of work to illustrate his wealth of experience. If I were living in Florida, Al would have a website of his own by now and an online portfolio to blow each and every sceptic away. But I don't live in Florida and so I would love somebody else who does to give him a hand. <p>At the same time I recall many respectful comments and encouragements given to others in the past by fellow forumers who tend to prefer digital and (non-Leica)SLR gear. Not by all of them. Many very talented photographers have preferred to restrict themselves to posting their own photographs and - at best - engage themselves in technological or brand related discussions. As much as I find the latter counterproductive and feticious I do miss the artistic input they have given until recently.<p>Tony, maybe it's just a question of letting some water run down the stream and see if this thread of yours for one and the revival of the Street&Documentary Forum on the other hand can release the tension that has been building up lately...? I wish it would. I remember this forum from the old Greenspun Forum days and I do miss quite a number of regulars which seem to have been driven away by the rougher goings on the photo.net highway. This forum has been the kindest and most helpful and enlightening place by far. Panta rei, everything changes, that's for sure. But in this case it can (and will) only change for the better. Just give it some time.<p>

Oh, and a last thought: having watched the Academy Award and seeing Prince, formerly known as The Artist Formerly Known As Prince, again after years, the thought crossed my mind: what if the name of this forum (dare I say Our Forum?) changed to The Forum Formerly Known As The Leica Photography Forum? Just for a while... ;-))))) Cheers.

[nasmformyzombie]

A simple definition for Leica photography :<br><br>

Photos and discussion related to Leica cameras, lenses, both M and R; M mount Zeiss RF and lenses; Leica thread mount bodies and lenses, from Leica O. Barnack screw mount to Canon RF and lenses, CV LTM and M mount Bessas and lenses, as well as LTM Fed and Zorki. Oh yea, Minolta made a LTM camera and a few lenses as well. Furthermore, Leica P&S film cameras, and yes, Leica and Panasonic P&S digital cameras. More peripherally related, let's also include Leica R lenses used via adapter on Canon digital bodies. And lastly, one thumbs up for Al Kaplan!

[bobatkins]

<em>Why does the photography pie have to be split up like this?</em>

<p>

I don't know. Why don't different religious groups get along?

<p>

Some peole here clearly want this forum to be for Leica discussion or discussion of, by or about Leica users themselves on almost any topic under the sun. Seems reasonable given the name.

 

<p>Others want it to be open to discussion of all and any rangefiner cameras, even non-Leica cameras. I doubt those groups will get along well.

<p>

BTW I was perfectly serious about a "non-Leica rangefinder forum". If there's a demand, one could be created. Might be a way to keep peace here and provide a forum for a wider discussion (of camera equipment and techniques) than seems welcome here. There are lots of non-Leica rangefinders, from Contax to Bessa, Nikon to Canon and no doubt a number of cameras that I've never heard of. It could even (gasp) include users of fixed lens rangefinder cameras like the Canonet QL17. It could even be open to MF rangefinders like Bronica and Mamiya as well as digital rangefinders like the Epson RD-1. Not a Leica among them. Such a forum would probably exclude FS/WTB ads, like all the other photo.net forums do, but would allow image posting.

[claudia__]

<i>It could even (gasp) include users of fixed lens rangefinder cameras like the Canonet QL17</i><p>

 

and there's Konica I and II, and all the Yashica RFs too, plus the Olys like the RC etc and the XA, yay! a rangefiner forum would be cool imho.

[kent_tolley2]

It seems to me that everything was going fine here but if I have to go to the Street&Doc forum to see and post photos because all the shooters are going there that's not a problem. It seems to me most of us like photos <B>AND</B> are interested in the gear to get them to a greater or lesser degree. If the authorities feel they have to split up the community into little pieces it seems like an inordinant amount of intervention but we'll get by.<BR><BR>

What is clear to me is that given the choice, and we're all at choice here, it is easier on everyone who comes here to treat each other with respect. If you cannot feel any respect for the poster or cannot find it in yourself post a reply that is civil then just leave his post alone. The fault could be in either yourself or the person for whom you feel no respect. Why not give the other guy and the forum itself the benefit of the doubt. For a bunch of intelligent people we seem to be deficient in emotional IQ.

[EricM]

"BTW I was perfectly serious about a "non-Leica rangefinder forum"."

 

Why? The problem isn't amongst RF users in general. It's amongst RF users and non-RF users that are allowed to post in the rangefinder style. There is no such thing as 'rangefinder style' and that's how we've ended up with this talented bunch. However, it's about certain mind sets that keep arguing with one another. Many Leica owners own many different kinds of RF's and hybrid outfits from bodies coupled with different lenses and appreciate one forum where everyone is all gathered together smoking and drinking coffee. Many RF users are into SLR's and DSLR's. How many times has an OT post been made here with an introduction like "I know this probably belongs in x forum, but I feel more comfortable posting here..."? All I gather from your suggestion Bob, is that you want to make this place smaller and more exclusionary. You'll find most of us are dead against it.

 

(If you want to make another forum for the heck of it, I recommend a Studio Photography Forum, a huge part of photography that isn't represented here, covering both still life and people. I'll put my hand up and help you with it if you want.)

[kent_tolley2]

On restoring our members, I've written to Tony and Bob Atkins and posted the question several times here on the page and had <B>NO</B> response from either of you. To repeatedly ignore the requests of members shows little respect on the part of the Administration for us. <BR><BR>Once more: will you consider reinstating Grant to our forum.

[nasmformyzombie]

From Bob's comments, this discussion is shaping up increasingly as some good old fashioned Leica snobbery. Let's take the gear in my bag as an example. I use a Canon 7 RF and a Minolta CLE. So if I want to discuss the Canon 7, I go to the 'non-Leica' RF forum, but the CLE is ok here. Humm. If I mount my Leica 90mm Elmarit M on my CLE, I'm ok here, but if I mount a CV 21mm lens via screw mount adapter on my CLE, do I discuss this on the Leica forum or the 'non-Leica' forum? My point is this: Leica RF includes various clones, both old and new, that IMHO have a place here. If it's non-Leica MOUNT gear, then it belongs elsewhere. This includes all the Nikon SLR, Contax G and the like that show up on this forum from time to time. Folks, this is not complicated---at least it doesn't have to be. Do our moderators understand that Leica 'cousins' belong at the family gathering?

[bobatkins]

Well, I can make a "non-Leica Rangefinder Forum" and those who don't want to use it wouldn't have to. However those tired of feeling like "poor relations" here would have an alternative place to post, hopefully in a forum with a more focused view and less hostility.

 

I'm not just going to make such a forum for the hell of it, but if I see a demand, I'll seriously consider it after discussing the matter with other forum moderators.