ADMIN: Guidelines for Adhering to Topic

[robert_clark]

Just like to add my voice to those who are sick of all the sniping at Al.

As far as I can see he does his best to give genuinely helpful advice and is mostly courteous and non-reactive. Given that it has become almost a fashion to do him down, that is not a bad record.

 

OK, he likes using Leicas and B&W (don't many here?), he likes and values the traditional darkroom, and he likes to air his extensive knowledge of lens arcanae; is this so wrong? He may be digital-averse, for all sorts of reasons, is that a crime? Given that he was photographically active and successful long before many others on this forum were born, is all this at all surprising?

 

The other thing that seems to bring out sour grapes is that those who go down to see him a) seem to like him, and b) like to show his photo and have even made T-shirts with his picture on as if he is some sort of celebrity. Is that HIS fault?

 

Give the guy a break, if Peter A and Boris O'Chan (and others) get wound up by him, calm down, move on, skip his posts, and please, shut up.

[michael s.]

<a href=http://www.photo.net/photonet-subscriptions>Subscription (contribution) info is here</a>.

[richard_cook2]

After reading the original question and all the the comments that followed it the thing that I do not understand is where are non-Leica rangefinder cameras and lenses to be discussed?

Is there a place for them anywhere on photo.net or should they all move over to http://www.rangefinderforum.com/ ?

[bobatkins]

You guys are going to have to decide exactly what cameras you will and will not discuss in this forum, or at least the forum moderators will have to decide.

 

One choice would be any 35mm interchangable lens rangefinder or scale focusing camera. That would allow the Nikon and Canon rangefinders and the new Bessa models.

 

A second choice would be any equipment which is compatible with Leica bodies or lenses which would include the new Bessa stuff, but exclude most of the old Nikon and Canon stuff (I think!).

 

The third choice would be that if it doesn't have Leica written on it, it's not appropriate for this forum.

 

Other suitable forums could be the Classic Cameras forum which deals with stuff made before around 1970. The older Nikon and Canon rangefinders would fit there quite well. There's also a catch-all "Camera Equipment" forum. I would not in passing that the Classic Cameras forum is very active and requires essentially ZERO moderation. For some reason the people who post there are far less opinionated and dogmatic and far less hostile that people who post in some other (nameless) forums...

 

Whatever you decide, make a decison and put it in the forum guidelines.

 

You're also going to have to decide what "Leica Photography" is or "Leica style Photography" is, and how it differs from anything that might be posted in the "Street and Documentary Photography" forum.

 

Also I'd add that you cannot expect the forum moderators to nursemaid you. They're volunteers with a limited amount of time to devote to the task of trying to keep the forum functioning as a non-hostile environment in which to discuss "Leica stuff". It's not their job to pounce on every deviation from that goal within seconds of it being posted. It's you job not to post it in the first place. Don't expect the moderators to clean up after you, and if they have the time and spend the effort to do it, thank them for it, don't abuse them.

[icuneko]

Y'ALL GIVE AL A BREAK!

 

 

As for Tony's requests, they sound reasonable to me and include wiggle-room when needed.

 

 

Finally, long live the Pancake Bunny.

[tom s.]

For Messrs. Dixon and Kaplan:<div></div>

[EricM]

?Whatever you decide, make a decison and put it in the forum guidelines.?

 

The guidelines are fine. The forum is fine. The same thing happened last year about this time. Threads got deleted, people left, moderators started talking about rules, and everyone was yelling and voicing opinions. This is an eclectic forum and the more interference the mods put in the sandbox, the less and less people play in the sandbox. Its simple, just delete the threads that contain swearing and insults and any resulting stupid thread that may be sparked from it and stop trying to fix something that works and let us get on with it. What's this place going to look like in a couple of years if you keep getting get tighter and tighter? The whole essence of this place is it loseness and diverse bunch. And reinstate the polar opposite to Al, Grant, while your at it.

[tom s.]

right on Eric ~

[bobatkins]

Sorry Eric, I hadn't realized that this was a sandbox for kiddies to play in. I'd mistaken it for a place for adults to discuss their opinions and experiences with Leica equipment. My mistake.

[kevin m.]

Robert, nobody is out to get anybody. But when someone posts thread after thread of incorrect information, shouldn't they be called on it? If someone continually offers their professional opinion about digital cameras when it is evident they have never used one, and touts the superiority of a certain type of equipment, but can show no results, doesn't that matter at all?

 

It appears that the Leica forum is drifing away from being the most open, inclusive and fun forum on pnet and towards being just an internet hangout for gear-obsessed old timers who gather here to reassure each other that their money was well spent.

[EricM]

Nothing wrong with a metaphor? Why are you apologizing and being condescending Bob? I expect more from our referee, silent, objective, and in the background. This is our hang out, our tree fort. If you where here daily and contributed and posted photos and help make this place what it is, then I'd pay attention to your suggestions. But you don't and I'm not. Sorry.

[bobatkins]

Sorry Eric , but it's not your tree house. As Philip Greensupn once said, photo.net isn't a $100,000 chat room. While it's intended to be a friendly place, it's also intended to be an educational resource and forums are expected to stay, more or less, on topic, while users are expected, more or less, to be civil to each other.

 

Yes, last year there was a bit of a clean out. A few members took their toys and made their own tree fort which had a much wider scope than this forum, with little moderation and areas for political dicussion, off-color jokes and photo.net bashing. It lasted a few months before dying a natural death.

 

Anyone at any time is welcome to form their own Leica club with their own rules (or lack of them). In fact anyone who is really unhappy with the way the photo.net forum is run is positively encouraged to do so.

[el_fang]

<i>"I come to this forum so I can see other Leica users photos, not some cheapo digital camera photos. I think it should be Leica only, being that this is the LEICA forum." - Dave Mirra</i>

<p>I suppose this will then transform the forum completely into a <a href="http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00BIqV" target="_blank">noob Leica user asking dumb questions of nostalgic old farts</a> club. So have you finally tested out your camera for the precious "foreground bokeh" yet?

 

<p><i>"OK, he likes using Leicas and B&W (don't many here?), he likes and values the traditional darkroom, and he likes to air his extensive knowledge of lens arcanae; is this so wrong? He may be digital-averse, for all sorts of reasons, is that a crime?"</i>

<p>It's not a crime to be digital-averse as a matter of valid opinion. However, I think it's a disservice to the forum and P.net at large to allow <i>silly</i> and <i>baseless</i> anti-digital ranting to go unchallenged. Otherwise I have no beef with Al.

[EricM]

I never said it was mine. I said it was ours. But if you want to keep demeaning my thoughts by picking apart my juxtapositions and going off topic with new irrelevancies and not discussing what I am actually saying, then there's nothing I can do. This place was fine two weeks ago. You've swept the current mess under the rug like you should have. It's done, it's over. There's no need for anything else.

[icuneko]

Wow, Al in an edible beret. How chic!

[icuneko]

Wow, Al with an edible beret. How chic!

[bobatkins]

<em>"...This place was fine two weeks ago..."</em>

<p>

That's a matter of opinion.

[absinthe]

Why is it that so many who complain about whether or not a pic was taken with a Leica tend to only post to complain? They never contribute anything else. Since they don't participate, I don't see why anyone would care much what they think.

[robert_clark]

Most of Al's digital-averse comments have often boiled down to: I've got on fine with what I know till now, it can do everything I want it to do, with very good value and simplicity thrown in, so why should I bother with this new-fangled digital complexity.

 

So you know better; you know he doesn't really understand; so be it. Now leave him with his delusions and move on. Why get hot under the collar?

[michael s.]

In a Forum that wears a financially struggling brand's name (Leica) on its front door, a strange thing has happened. Here, "business" has boomed. We have a wide spectrum of photographic abilities, experiences, interests, attitudes, gear, philosophies, and objectives. We're from different countries, on different continents, and of different races, faiths, and backgrounds. We have collectors and shooters, gearheads and gear-skeptics (and some who straddle the fence), pros both current and retired, advanced hobbyists, rank amateurs, and novices. Some of us post photos; some don't. Some take outstanding pictures; many of us would like to do that.

 

I think this place is worth visiting because there's variety here. Want to find out which "IFLOOFA" fits on the backside of your APB - Teletubby? Somebody here knows and you'll get an answer, often within an hour. Want to know if the d.o.f. or other characteristics of a new Voigtlander or old Canon lens make that lens a good fit in your bag? Ask -- you'll get opinions. Want to post some recent shots of your town or your travels, or a serious set of pictures devoted to a theme or an issue? Put 'em up. Want your photos critiqued? Ask (or don't even ask) -- it'll happen. Want to make some online friends who share your interest in photography? They're here.

 

Rules: This isn't rocket science. If we keep from swearing at or about one another; stay out of politics; avoid racial, ethnic, and religious taunting and stereotyping; disagree with and criticize one another respectfully and avoid nasty personal attacks; then we'll be just fine.

 

Those who do not observe these guidelines should be warned gently, then warned sternly, then suspended, and finally, if they still do not conform their conduct to these guidelines, they should be asked to leave altogether. Rules don't work unless they're enforced consistently and uniformly. A massive "crackdown" once or twice a year is a bad thing for two reasons: (a) it's ineffective, because it doesn't create an atmosphere in which participants understand that they're always expected to adhere to the guidelines; and (b) it raises serious questions of fairness and selective enforcement.

 

I'd hate to see the place dragged down by personal rivalries or jealousies, or made unpleasant by a few malcontents or pentium-emboldened pugilists who thrive on nastiness and one-upsmanship. We shouldn't let that happen.

 

There is zero risk, in my opinion, that we'll be harmed if other cameras are used or mentioned. This has not in recent memory been a "Leica exclusive" place. If it becomes one, I believe it would be both much smaller and much less interesting. True gear questions in this Forum are properly focused upon Leica and Leica-compatible or Leica-similar equipment. There are better places on photo.net to ask gear questions about Canon dslr's or pro backs for medium format photographers.

 

But I'd be strongly opposed to limiting photos to those certified to have been snapped with Leica cameras and/or lenses. The fact that we cannot precisely define "Leica photography" or "rangefinder photography" is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Allen Herbert]

whether or not a pic was taken with a Leica tend to only post to complain? They never contribute anything else

 

I agree with Heather. Moan, moan, moan that's all some folks do.Post some photos, have a laugh, share some knowledge....that's what it's all about.

[rj]

"This is our hang out, our tree fort. If you where here daily and contributed and posted photos and help make this place what it is, then I'd pay attention to your suggestions."

 

I have to agree with Eric here. Not that we should NOT include anybody, but if you were more of an active participant and contributed to threads about leica gear or leica shooting, than people would be more inclinded to care what you write about.

 

I think everybody should go back and read Tony's bullet points. It seems like the list is pretty inclusive to what should be on-topic to the leica forum. I don't really see the need to limit the photographs on the forum to non digital leica m shots, that makes no sense. The photos shown on this forum are not a problem, its the attacking and non-polite answers to perfectly good questions. (yes, I believe bokeh to be a perfectly good subject, at least it has something to do with photography)

[squareframe]

this forum needs a facelift.<br><br>

a month ago someone posted a query as to how best guestimate exposure when he used an early Leica rangefinder sans meter. my suggestion, was to use his digi-cam, assuming he had one (who doesn't these days), and note the exposure values compared to his best guessing. I was flamed by the Leica Elite, to essentially 'get out of Dodge' for suggesting a digital alternative to a Gossen analogue meter of some vintage era or Barnack's original selenium-cell design. my high-school science project in 1966 was a lightmeter of far greater accuracy.<br><br>

 

two suggestions: discuss Leica photography, or pay for your pleasures.<br><br>

$25 - basic subscription<br>

$50 - you are a sanctioned Leica-phile<br>

$100 - you can argue and flame against anyone, and will be allowed to site your thirty-plus years of Leica ownership as validation and membership in the certifiable Leica Elite.<br><br>

 

for those sardonically-challenged - stick to photography and get a life.

[EricM]

nice Michael.

[squareframe]

and before someone suggests that I 'get out of Dodge' once again, I am here for two reasons. to help answer questions and lend an oblique perspective at times, if I can, and because of my deep love for the best lens ever designed - the Noctilux.