The iPhone photographer

[je ne regrette rien]

Certainly a “picture of sense” made with a view camera will not look the same as one made with a phone camera (btw, the photo algorithms of the recent smart phones are stunning).

The choice of “the machine” is certainly determining the visual outcome, but certainly not the sense and the reason of being of a picture, which goes beyond, and informs, the technical choice.

As you know, there are (were) Polaroids for view cameras.

Edited October 17, 2023 by je ne regrette rien

[samstevens]

14 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

the sense and the reason of being of a picture

What do you think determines “the sense and the reason of being of a picture?”

[samstevens]

20 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

The sense of a photograph is in the work itself, not in anything else. And therefore depends on the photographer.

Sorry. I see you provided the answer to this, giving it all over to the photographer. But what about the viewer? And what about circumstance? Is a great documentary photo of a VJ Day Kiss not given sense and a reason for being by the couple kissing and the war that just ended? Is a Hockney collage of Polaroids inspired by the camera he was using not giving some of its sense and reason for being by the camera that inspired it? Is a nude of one of Weston’s muses not given some sense of reason by the muse herself and the relationship that ensues? Are the Abu Ghraib photos not given some sense by the horrific circumstances under which they were taken, not just rooted in the photos themselves but in history as well. Without that history, I’d maintain we couldn’t appreciate the full reason for their being or their full meaning. A photo is, in some sense, a kind of magical object that holds a lot of secrets. But it also represents a lot of knowable things which are outside both the photo and the photographer. Photos, in this respect, are not isolated or self-centered.

Edited October 17, 2023 by samstevens

[je ne regrette rien]

1 hour ago, samstevens said:

What do you think determines “the sense and the reason of being of a picture?”

My dear friend Sam, this is the most complicated feat in photography, I'm struggling with it since a long time and to an extent it has paused my photography. And possibly you and I will take this thread on the "machinery" off the rails! 😉

1. Photographs are rooted in reality. Per se, the photographic craft and art starts from reality, even ontologically. It can distort, deny reality, but never forsake it. Everyone taking a photograph has the intent to fix reality on some kind of medium to preserve it, to preserve a possibly unique perspective of reality. The easiness of the medium leads to a practically continuous record of reality. My point is that, even though everybody taking a photograph thinks they make a unique record of reality, this is simply a wrong perception. We may think we are the first human being in front of a sunset, a landscape, a kitten, a falling passer-by. But in the largest majority of cases we aren't.
2. What I think, but I'm not original in this, is that "the sense and the reason of being of a picture" is related to its necessity to exist because it enriches our knowledge and perception of reality in respect to the body of work produced so far.

And that would be just the starters. We may want to open up a separate thread.

[je ne regrette rien]

1 hour ago, samstevens said:

I see you provided the answer to this, giving it all over to the photographer. But what about the viewer?

And that, again, may be a new thread.

A subject discussed by no one less than Roland Barthes! Obviously the photographer is the originator. They hand their work over to the viewer and lose control. They may not even be able to maintain their intent!

Your points are complex and articulate: I mean exactly that. A photographer infuses the sense in their work embedding historically, ontologically, realistically and artistically their representation of reality in the wider historical, cultural and if you want global context. Which does not exclude the subjective element, which is as important. Of the author and of the viewer. And let's stick with Barthes and include the subject as well.

I'm certain that, even though the machine is instrumental and determinant of the visual result, and certainly a precise choice, it is never the starting point.

I'm sorry, I've made a logical mess out of this, I may think about how to disentangle it a bit. All related to the sense of photography, but from different angles.

 

[inoneeye]

3 hours ago, je ne regrette rien said:

I'm certain that, even though the machine is instrumental and determinant of the visual result, and certainly a precise choice, it is never the starting point.

In my work there are times that the camera choice is to support my intent… other times the camera I have with me is the 1st consideration of what I will shoot. My vision will often form outward from the camera, format and film stock I am using. This includes iPhone for me.

Edited October 17, 2023 by inoneeye

[AlanKlein]

On 9/30/2023 at 4:51 PM, samstevens said:

Over the last 50 years, I've taken many vacations alone. I've often chosen to take road trips by myself, because I love to do that, love the time to myself and being able to stop where and when I want and to take pictures when doing so without considering someone else's needs at the time. I don't know (or care) how I look to other people. Were I taking a selfie or were I to want someone to take my picture, I'd appreciate their offer and might ask them to take my pic if I wanted to. Whether I were a single male or female, and traveling alone, I would discourage strangers from ascribing loneliness to me.

Why are you so quick to make assumptions about what others would do? You're a couple of generations and a gender removed from single young women (proven by your age, your gender, and the anachronistic use of "girl"). You are far from an expert on others' motivations or reasons for doing things that might be very different from a guy who is decades older and projecting what he thinks younger people's behavior means.

I'd appreciate if you didn't shorten my post when quoting it and take only a portion out of context.  Below is the full post.  If someone or a few people look like they could use another party to take their picture, I may ask.  The worse they could say in no.  Being polite and helpful has nothing to do with my age or theirs. Most are happy for the offer and take me up on it because they realize I could probably take a better picture than their selfie. 

 

Quote

My original post in full: "I don't know.  If the girl was with someone, they'd have their friend shoot them, or selfie both of them.  In any case, I'm talking about people who look like they're really all alone, on vacation traveling or whatever.  I enjoy offering to take their pictures.  Often, when there are a number of people like a family, and one parent is taking shots of the rest of the family, I offer to shoot all of them. I do my best to really get a memorable picture and it's much appreciated by them.  I feel good about it too."

 

[AlanKlein]

deleted  duplicate

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by AlanKlein

[AlanKlein]

Deleted duplicate

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by AlanKlein

[Ricochetrider]

Speaking of intent, I feel like there are darn few who begin, and end, a photographic journey with only a phone as a camera. Yet one may never know that, if one’s source for information about phone choices is the marketers who loudly tout phones’ camera abilities. Have we arrived at a place where a camera (or lens or processor or what have you) is THE thing that separates one phone from another? I think perhaps we are close to that if we’ve not fully arrived. 
 

And the thing is that one can indeed get more “serious” with their phone photography, as the newer phones can be manipulated more intricately than previous phones, to achieve certain things- BUT it’s still all computational, not actual function. So if a camera and it processor/sensor OR lens/film can achieve certain “looks”, that remains a product of the hardware while the phone achieves its effect thru some sort of voodoo! Ha ha ha 🫣
 

[samstevens]

2 hours ago, Ricochetrider said:

one can indeed get more “serious” with their phone photography

Then again, “serious” may be overrated, even among “serious” photographers …

https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2022/06/USA.-New-York-City.-2000.-NYC15335-2048x1371.jpg

https://baseec-img-mng.akamaized.net/images/item/origin/d6e61a67ea98b95f783174c20e71240c.jpg?imformat=generic&q=90&im=Resize,width=300,type=normal

https://niagaragalleries.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/14899.jpg

https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5909553a1c7a8e33fb38b57c/master/w_1600,c_limit/120813_bikiniparr-01_p465.jpg

[humor courtesy of elliott erwitt and martin parr]

[Ricochetrider]

😂 

good stuff there, Sam - thanks! 

[Allen Herbert]

Yes, the final image is about catching the biggest fish. However, the journey is equally import, if not more so.

To my mind Photography is about fun and enjoyment. What fun would this camera be to use? Okay, you have a mobile phone.

The Wonderful World of Rolleiflex TLR Photography: Buying a Used Rolleiflex TLR | B&H eXplora (bhphotovideo.com)

Edited November 1, 2023 by Allen Herbert

[inoneeye]

Regarding the journey… the mobile phone has taken me to new places offering new ways of seeing, interacting and expressing myself. I have been able to expand my photographic vocabulary and that is rewarding. As a tool the iPhone is unique.

I am sure most photographers have A favorite and a least preferable camera to look at and handle, (besides the one we have with us). I have several favorites- but for a long time now I prefer the ‘one’ that best expresses what I am seeing, want to see in the moment. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by inoneeye

[samstevens]

While having a cool car or a comfortable car or a big enough car or a car that gets good gas mileage or one that is shiny or one that's four-wheel drive for the snow or one that has a big enough trunk to load up with camping gear is important for my road trips, the journey for me is about more than the car. It's about stopping at diners along the way, talking to the folks I meet, listening to driving music, feeling the wind on my face and the arm hanging out the window, taking a hike off the road, and all the things I might discover, which having a car enables me to do. Yes, having a car that suits me and the task at hand is helpful, something any trip-taker likely recognizes.

I've happily never been stopped by fellow travelers and told my car wasn't up to snuff. Most travelers I meet on the road don't focus on the vehicle. They often seem more interested in where I've been and where I'm going. If I can convey that with pictures I take, and especially if I can do that literally and figuratively, I'm content.

[Allen Herbert]

 "As a tool the iPhone is unique" Inon.

How is that? No viewfinder, slippery piece of plastic ,tiny low resolution ,absolutely no handling characteristics. What the monkeys.

Okay, it is the device it is always with you. Hmm, Is that it? Methinks, you have swallowed  a rather big dose of marketing . In your defense most folks do that's why they earn the big bucks.

Hey, us dudes in marketing ,want you to feel happy and special. Yes, a success, you feel very happy and special with your iPhone. And just for you, keep it a secret, there is a super better version coming out next month.

Save your dollars. Yes, with the new, not released yet, iPhone you will become a master photographer.

My mate Freddy has already got his name down for one. His so excited.

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

Anyway, time for a photo, because that is what us photographers do.

 

 

[inoneeye]

No doubt IF technical quality is your goal then a mobile camera is not the best first choice. The small sensor and lenses have limits. Obvious pixels, haloing contrast, poor gradations…. And digital zooming is often ugly. The expansion depth of field on a mobile phone is a ‘bokeh’ lovers obstacle. The compact sensor is often dreaded most when enlarged. All very solid reasons to not appreciate a phone for making photos.

😘 but. aside from the obvious benefits many claim for having a camera on your phone I find the limitations I listed inspiring for me to shoot in new ways. I have loved shooting Polaroids, plastic cameras, pinhole, large format, intstamatic, expired film, etc. ALL have limitations and all have taught me new ways to see and put to use these limitations. 👁️

Edited November 4, 2023 by inoneeye

[samstevens]

Picasso included a bit of pop culture, in Still Life with Chair-Caning, back in 1912, using wallpaper printed with a chair-caning pattern. Roy Lichtenstein included pop imagery, comic book heroines, in his work. Andy Warhol is obvious, of course.

Artists who have historically borrowed pop elements and ideas have been reflecting the consumer and technological world we live in for ages, using that very world to comment both on that world and on art, not to mention to express themselves in a language familiar to much of their audience while establishing a sort of meta language of their own.

Using an iPhone creatively and with intention, exploiting the kinds of saturation we see everyday on the Internet, or the traces of halos around objects, or the pixellation that's associated with amateurish post processing helps bridge the divide between high and low art, something artists have been doing for generations.

What happens is that a sense of art gets layered over what's popular, by welcoming what's popular in and of itself and discovering what an intentionally-creative approach can do with what's popular, while also reigning in the hubris of a lot of "fine art" in favor of a more humble and perhaps more relatable vision.

It's really not so much a matter of swallowing the marketing as it is recognizing the effects of marketing and new technologies on culture and turning this recognition to creative advantage and effect.

 

Embracing "flaws" goes back centuries. Check out Chopin's Etude in E minor, Op. 25, No. 5, affectionately known as The Wrong Note Etude.

https://youtu.be/2W6me8tYEUw?si=ZU7Nx7nPIAEGrHiS

Prokofiev's Cinderella has some my-t-fine clunker-worthy passages as well.

Many artists have senses of humor and irony, find pop culture fascinating, and use imperfection to advantage.

Edited November 4, 2023 by samstevens

[AlanKlein]

17 hours ago, Allen Herbert said:

 "As a tool the iPhone is unique" Inon.

How is that? No viewfinder, slippery piece of plastic ,tiny low resolution ,absolutely no handling characteristics. What the monkeys.

Okay, it is the device it is always with you. Hmm, Is that it? Methinks, you have swallowed  a rather big dose of marketing . In your defense most folks do that's why they earn the big bucks.

Hey, us dudes in marketing ,want you to feel happy and special. Yes, a success, you feel very happy and special with your iPhone. And just for you, keep it a secret, there is a super better version coming out next month.

Save your dollars. Yes, with the new, not released yet, iPhone you will become a master photographer.

My mate Freddy has already got his name down for one. His so excited.

 

I agree Allen that ergonomics is the worse part of cellphone photography.  May I add to your list that in bright sun, you can't see the screen.  You kind of hold the camera up and aim it in the genral direction of the subject and hope you get the shot or video.  However, I was stuck once without a camera other than my cellphone. I was able to capture my men's club tour of a fireman's training complex.  And this was all taken with a 5-6 year old cellphone.

 

[mikemorrellNL]

On 10/29/2023 at 3:47 PM, Ricochetrider said:

...

Have we arrived at a place where a camera (or lens or processor or what have you) is THE thing that separates one phone from another? I think perhaps we are close to that if we’ve not fully arrived. 
...

For photographers (or just people who like taking photos) I think that this has been true for some time.  When I decided that I needed to upgrade my (Samsung) phone in 2020 the quality of photos that a new (Samsung) phone could take was certainly a major selection factor.  I'd had Samsungs for years, I was used to Android and didn't (and don't) want to switch to Iphones. At the time, I decided to with the Samsung Galaxy S20+. Identical to the basic Samsung S20 but with 5G connectivity. The Samsung S20 Ultra (with an extra lens) was - for me - just too expensive in relation to how I expected to use its cameras.

I've found that I've often used the camera on my mobile. As a 'backup' for my DSLR photos & videos and for photos and videos when I'm just 'about and about' without a DSLR. In fact, I began to rely more and more on my mobile phone on day trips, leaving my DSLR at home. Perhaps more importantly, my mobile phone enables me to take good quality photos of day-to-day things I want to record/remember: events, sheets of music, product I see in stores, etc.

@AlanKlein, I don't believe that image quality improves with each new version of a mobile phone. Or that photographers (like me) fall into into the trap of 'upgrading to the newest version' without first checking out whether and how 'imaging capabilities' may have improved.

This video shows the improvements in image quality between my Galaxy S20 and the current Galaxy 23. Improvements were only made (2-3 years later) in the Galaxy S22 and the current Galaxy S23. Looking at the Iphone wiki page, the story looks pretty much the same.

So yes, lens, image sensor and in-camera image-processing capabilities are steadily improving. But my impression is that 'major improvements' tend (at the moment) to happen every 3 years or so. As each new mobile phone version is announced and comes on the market, many owners of previous versions ask themselves 'is it worth my upgrading?'. For most people, the answer to upgrading from one version to the following is "probably not". For most people, there needs IMHO to be a significant advantage in upgrading from an older version to a newer version. For photographers too.

Mike

[samstevens]

21 minutes ago, mikemorrellNL said:

As each new mobile phone version is announced and comes on the market, many owners of previous versions ask themselves 'is it worth my upgrading?'.

I tend to upgrade my phone when I have to, either because the iOS is so old that it has stopped supporting apps or because it can’t hold a charge for more than a few hours.

[Ricochetrider]

1 hour ago, mikemorrellNL said:

For photographers (or just people who like taking photos) I think that this has been true for some time.  When I decided that I needed to upgrade my (Samsung) phone in 2020 the quality of photos that a new (Samsung) phone could take was certainly a major selection factor.  I'd had Samsungs for years, I was used to Android and didn't (and don't) want to switch to Iphones. At the time, I decided to with the Samsung Galaxy S20+. Identical to the basic Samsung S20 but with 5G connectivity. The Samsung S20 Ultra (with an extra lens) was - for me - just too expensive in relation to how I expected to use its cameras.

I've found that I've often used the camera on my mobile. As a 'backup' for my DSLR photos & videos and for photos and videos when I'm just 'about and about' without a DSLR. In fact, I began to rely more and more on my mobile phone on day trips, leaving my DSLR at home. Perhaps more importantly, my mobile phone enables me to take good quality photos of day-to-day things I want to record/remember: events, sheets of music, product I see in stores, etc.

@AlanKlein, I don't believe that image quality improves with each new version of a mobile phone. Or that photographers (like me) fall into into the trap of 'upgrading to the newest version' without first checking out whether and how 'imaging capabilities' may have improved.

This video shows the improvements in image quality between my Galaxy S20 and the current Galaxy 23. Improvements were only made (2-3 years later) in the Galaxy S22 and the current Galaxy S23. Looking at the Iphone wiki page, the story looks pretty much the same.

So yes, lens, image sensor and in-camera image-processing capabilities are steadily improving. But my impression is that 'major improvements' tend (at the moment) to happen every 3 years or so. As each new mobile phone version is announced and comes on the market, many owners of previous versions ask themselves 'is it worth my upgrading?'. For most people, the answer to upgrading from one version to the following is "probably not". For most people, there needs IMHO to be a significant advantage in upgrading from an older version to a newer version. For photographers too.

Mike

Well

Had I thought about it a little more, I could have realized that I bought the iPhone 13 Pro Max, pretty much BECUASE of its upgraded camera capabilities! I'm sure I dont use it to its full potential... mostly because I'm not deeply invested in my  phone as a camera. A phone may be able to do this or that but at the end of the day, I mostly need it because I need a PHONE. Any other functions, in my mind, are basically just window dressing. A phone with a super camera might take *better* photos... BUT I would guess the number of people using phone cameras exclusively for pro level photo work are pretty low, perhaps slightly higher for those who shoot pro  video? Especially if juxtaposed against the sheer numbers of owners of mobile phones today.   

I need a new phone like I need a hole in my head, but the 15 Pro Max is said to have gotten "significant upgrades" over & above the other new iPhones.  The details escape my memory currently but I was looking at them a couple weeks back, after a friend sent me a thing about optimizing trade-in allowances on iPhones. Seems there's a window of opportunity where one can get up to 1000.00 credit IF you take the leap and trade up during that "optimal" time period?  Again, I may be misremembering, as I'm not one to chase those particular dragons.   

[Allen Herbert]

iPhone, replaced a P/S camera.

Move on to a camera with a viewfinder, handling qualities, with a decent sized sensor not based on a software look.. Or, a slippery piece of plastic which is invisible to look at in a bit of sunshine.

Costs a bucket load of money, and being sold by marketing folk that you need to constantly upgrade it to have the latest and greatest. Yet, in reality we are talking minor upgrades.

Yes, you can take great photos with any device. Yawn.

Got to add another yawn for this cliché saying..

 

[inoneeye]

“A photographer went to a socialite party in New York.  As he entered the front door, the host said ‘I love your pictures – they’re wonderful; you must have a fantastic camera.’  
~He said nothing until dinner was finished, then:~
‘That was a wonderful dinner; you must have a terrific Stove.'”

Sam Haskins