The Future of Photo.net

[michaellinder]

+ better emojis. or maybe none so i get more finger exercise.

 

How in the world will better emogis improve PN? (Are you joking perhaps?)

[samstevens]

[inoneeye]

I was just being silly Michael.

[michaellinder]

I was just being silly Michael.

 

I shoulda picked up on it!

[mikemorrell]

@mjensen

 

Hi Matt,

IMHO most of the responses so far are great in terms of a 'wishlist' of things current members do and don't want improved/changed on PN going forward. There's also an external perspective on what needs to change to attract newer, younger members in an already crowded market. It would certainly be useful to 'benchmark' the UI/UIX against other similar sites in the market.

 

You're right that the interest, interactivity, spirit and integrity of any forum is more important to the 'health and vibrance' than simply the UI/UX. But after so many years, I can well imagine that PN is only sustainable if moved to a different platform. I'm no IT-expert but I do see (via BuiltWith) that the tech profiles of PN and the Fiverr communities are completely different. So purely from a maintainability (cost) standpoint, it might make good sense to use similar tech for PN too. I have no idea how current PN' 'content' might be transferred to a new platform.

 

I'm also a member of a saxophone forum that is similar in nature to PN (a shared interest, diverse international membership). The UI/UIX has also been 'upgraded' a couple of times over recent years mainly as new platform (Xenforo) versions became available. But also to reflect improvements that members wanted or to drop features that members weren't using. One of the successful ways these upgrades were prepared - in addition to drawing up wishlists - was to have a small group of volunteer members test and evaluate new versions before they went 'live'. A positive effect of this was that minor bugs were reported early and recommended 'tweaks' were made to the UI/UIX before going live.

 

It seems to me that there are 2 fundamentally different parts of PN:

- a forum, where members can interact, discuss, share links, media, etc. (pretty standard forum platform features)

- 'photo-sharing' part where members can set up and manage galleries, portfolios, upload and manage photos, and share links to these along with browsing/viewing/commenting functionality

 

It might be useful to look at the tech other photo-sharing sites use for the 'photo-sharing' part.

 

Mike

 

 

Thank you for sharing your feedback. So you know where my head is at:

 

1. I have found a lot of technical things to be broken. We think that's due to the limitations of the platform and we will likely have to change platforms in order to keep this going.

2. I very much want to keep the spirit and integrity of this forum. While "gamification" works for some things, it can also be detrimental to others. I don't see a need for those types of mechanics on a large scale at all.

3. Part of the conversation has been that this site HAS been around for so long and it deserves a historical landmark plaque. We want to save and preserve it, while growing it and using it as an example of how it can be successful with out being a "social media" site.

 

Not going to lie, moving forward, there will likely be some UX/UI changes that will be an adjustment. But that's why we're having this discussion now. So that I can be as transparent as possible with the process with as much feedback as possible from y'all!

[mikemorrell]

@mjensen

 

One more thing: - PN membership fees & benefits:

 

PN currently has a two-tier membership: basic (free) and paid ($30 a year). The main restriction of basic membership is that max. 100 photos can be uploaded. Though this doesn't seem to apply to photos that are attached (uploaded) to posts, notably in the popular 'no words' forum but also in other forums.

 

Most other photo-sharing sites offer free and paid membership options with some restrictions on the free membership benefits. The paid annual/monthly membership subscription is generally 30%-100% higher than that of PN. In practical terms, the benefits of paid membership at other sites are IMHO probably higher (and more reliable) than at PN for those who want to 'showcase' and possibly sell their best photos.

 

At PN, paid membership benefits include:

- Unlimited photo uploads

- Selling your photos

- Unlimited Entries to Photo.Net Contest

 

It's IHMO questionable why anyone would choose a photo-sharing site like PN (or Flickr, 500px, ...) as an unlimited online 'storage facility, given that there are much cheaper (often free) online storage solutions available for large numbers of images. So just as an amateur, I don't need to store more than 100 photos on PN

I've never tried to sell any photos via PN or via any other site but somehow, PN wouldn't be my first choice. I've been a PN member for many years and I can't remember any 'photo contests'.

 

The (not-for-profit) sax forum I mentioned in my previous post also has free and paid membership options with minimal benefits for 'paid subscribers'. But many members (like me) opt for a paid subscription just to support the forum and keep it up and running. Just because they value it. So (for current PN members) it's not only a question of 'what do I get for paid membership?' but also 'If I value PN, how can I contribute to its sustainability and future?'

 

With the 'wishlist' of forum members, I think it's it's also worth thinking about how 'basic' and 'paid' members are differentiated in terms of available features and restrictions going forward. And also polling what would entice currently 'basic' members to opt for a paid subscription.

 

I may be 'cursing in the Church', as the Dutch like to put it but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the 'maximum photo uploads' (total, per month, per week or per day) are limited for 'basic members'. The same applies to features for organizing portfolios, galleries, etc.

 

Again, I'm a fan of 'benchmarking' PN against competitors. In this case in terms of subscription fees and benefits/restrictions. IMHO, the 2 things that might encourage more paid membership of PN (though I don't know how this now stands) are:

- appeal to current members to (financially) support the future of PN by becoming subscribers; just because they value it

- increase the differentiation between 'free' and 'paid' members; in other words, make it more attractive for amateur photographers to become 'paid-up' members

- help make the 'promises' of paid membership (especially selling photos) become a reality

 

 

+

[mikemorrell]

@mjensen

 

One more new thing: Photo.net (PN) was acquired by CreativeLive some years back and CreatiiveLive has recently been acquired by Fiverr. Given the current membership, it's difficult to believe that CreativeLive has made much income on the deal. It's good to hear that PN hasn't been summarily dismissed by Fiverr as a 'dog' to get rid of. I can only conclude that PN - in some way - complements Fiverr's product- and investment- portfolio.

 

I truly hope that the functional en technical upgrades to PN keep it sustainable for years to come, Not only for the current members but for future members

[mikemorrell]

I hate the fact that I can't edit posts after more than 15 mins reflection!

[michaellinder]

@mjensen

 

One more new thing: Photo.net (PN) was acquired by CreativeLive some years back and CreatiiveLive has recently been acquired by Fiverr. Given the current membership, it's difficult to believe that CreativeLive has made much income on the deal. It's good to hear that PN hasn't been summarily dismissed by Fiverr as a 'dog' to get rid of. I can only conclude that PN - in some way - complements Fiverr's product- and investment- portfolio.

 

I truly hope that the functional en technical upgrades to PN keep it sustainable for years to come, Not only for the current members but for future members

 

Fully agreed, Mike!

[michaellinder]

Hi everyone,

 

This is a strange post to write, but I’d like to start by introducing myself. I’m Matt Jensen and I’ve been running the Fiverr forums for almost 6 years. The Fiverr community has grown from a WordPress site all the way up to (at last count) 141,413 unique contributors and over 800k accounts. As mentioned by Rodger, Creative Live was recently acquired by Fiverr so we can expand our online education offerings.

 

In that acquisition, we found ourselves asking, what is this community and how can we help it flourish. Being the “Community Guy” at Fiverr, I volunteered to start the conversation about Photo.net, the community, and how was can help each other.

 

To be honest, it seems like this community could use a little love and resources and I’d like to help change that. I love that everyone here is so passionate and I’d love to find a way to make sure we all can encourage that passion to continue to grow this amazing site.

 



From a hosting standpoint we have, unfortunately, found that the site urgently needs technical upgrades. Needless to say, some infrastructure and updates would need to happen, which may require a migration to another platform.

 

Don’t worry, before anything changes, I want to hear from you. I promise to be as transparent as I can be and include everyone in this process.

This is where you come in. I’m new to this forum, but not new to the world of photography. Not a professional by any means, but a hobbyist (Canon 60D, EF Zoom 24-105mm F/4.0 is my go-to).

 

I’ve met and talked with the amazing moderators and admins, but want to hear from everyone about what this forum is all about, what it can be, and how I can help us grow this community together.

 

-MJ

 

I have no idea what the timeline for creating PN3 may be. My feedback now is limited to a strong suggestion that, after management creates a Beta version, members then became part of the team. I follow photographers, both veterans and newbies, who relish the possibilities for PN3 and will not hesitate to contribute infinitely more than their two (2) cents worth.

[m42dave]

Another thought.

If it is decided to move Photo.Net to a new Platform , I hope that those of us who are using older computers and operating systems will still be able to access the site.

 

Hopefully the new site will be thoroughly tested with different operating systems and web browsers. I've noticed some technical problems after browser/OS updates.

 

I don't have a smartphone but some do use mobile devices to access the site, so something else to consider.

Edited March 26, 2022 by m42dave

[arthur_gottschalk]

most sites would consider referring to people who disagree with you as being "mentally ill" qualifies as an uncalled for personal attack.

 

 

No one mentioned "disagreements". I'm talking about gratuitous. and egregious personal insults that have nothing to do with anything substantive. IMHO, this can only come from an unbalanced mind.

[invisibleflash]

There is something I do hate here. They don't allow putting up other people's photos. It is more or less unique to this forum only...and I've been on hundreds of forums since 2-1998.

 

I do it all the time at other forums. NO problems at all...NEVER. The photos are for 'Fair Use' for discussion...editorial and educational.

 

Now, I got no problems taking museum quality photos myself. But, no matter how great you are, there is more to the photo world than just our own work.

 

Selection from Anatomy of an 8mm Cine' Kodachrome...by myself.

[samstevens]

They don't allow putting up other people's photos.

Just post a link and you're good to go.

[Robin Smith]

Ludmilla: if you were offended by that then you have paper thin skin.

[tommyfilmist]

No one mentioned "disagreements". I'm talking about gratuitous. and egregious personal insults that have nothing to do with anything substantive. IMHO, this can only come from an unbalanced mind.

 

An excellent thing to discuss, what are YOUR idea of personal insults? On all of the photo forums i have been on, simply disagreeing with a moderator or one of their sock puppet accounts over say the benefits of using a CPL versus photoshop to remove a reflection in a window is a "egregious personal insult with mandatory removal of a persons profile"

 

On one forum, there is a fellow whos claim to faim is 1200 instagram cellphone photos of his lunches.. anyone who disagrees with im on ANYTHING gets a profile removed. Even if you are discussing a D500 and its usefulness for macro work,, this dude buts in says "get an iphone" you disagree... you loose a profile account.

 

I have been on other photo forums where a person can loose there account for disagreeing with what a popular member says in a reply, say somedude51 asks about a DSLR rig under 800$... popular person starts demanding that somedude51 gets a 6,000$ mirrorless body, and about 5,000$ in lenses,, and YOU point out a few places somedude51 can actually meet his personal requirements,,, and YOUR profile is deleted..

 

Im on/off a video game site, the owners of the forum delete profiles of PAYING CUSTOMERS... each part of the game costs 70$ full price... and if you even mention how a certain countries aircraft are nerfed when the new release VIP aircraft fail to perform.

[samstevens]

[sarcasm]Maybe the new PN could offer a forum where members can complain about other websites and moderators on those sites. Call it the OT Rant Forum.[/sarcasm]

[PapaTango]

[sarcasm]Maybe the new PN could offer a forum where members can complain about other websites and moderators on those sites. Call it the OT Rant Forum.[/sarcasm]

 

Speaking of sock puppets and irascible souls... :rolleyes:

 

I have a rhetorical question. If a toad farts in a jar, will anyone of consequence hear or smell it?

 

See you guys when all of this finger-pointing gets sorted.

 

Oh, and a member since 1999...

[PapaTango]

I bet you would

 

I am having some confusion over the application of the noun 'you.'

 

As in "you" as an inclusive group--or you as in me?

[PapaTango]

I see.

 

At one time, I believed that the worst of things lived in the "Philosophy" board. It doesn't take very long to make a review and learn that it should be properly named "The Toad Jar." These were my thoughts of several years ago--and the spillover from that and the colossal failure of PN2.0 sent me away for likely a year now.

 

Oh, and has anyone noticed (or worse, been on the receiving end) when Toad Jar denizens are not content to sling scat about there--but follow the object of their scat slinging into other benign boards? It's a real treat!

 

At the risk of being seen as playing out a logical fallacy [argumentum ab auctoritate], I offer this bit of observation.

 

In an earlier life, I had published and administered several fora that ranged in size between several hundred, and several thousand members. I learned a great deal about handling problems--and still contribute regularly to the Admin Zone forum administrators group. Another of my expensive hobbies is amateur radio, and for many years belonged to the largest ham radio interest site in the world--QRZ.com.

 

That site averages 850K members at any given time--with an average of 600 signed-in members and 400 guests online throughout the day. I quote these metrics to throw light on how certain problems here on PN were magnified tenfold on QRZ! The forum was in trouble, membership (especially including PAID) was dropping, and the overall quality of the site slipping. I was asked by the forum owner to become the general manager and clean up the mess.

 

It took six months, 28 permabans, and 4 members reported and dealt with by their local ISP's. Membership at the end of the year had grown by 17%, and subscriptions to the forum and callsign database up by 23%. Attitude and disposition of members does matter. It makes me sad to think of the many people I used to enjoy interacting with here leave because of the nonsense. Sandy and I had several conversations about this a little over a year ago--and that's when I decided to stop supporting PN financially and just drift off. My current view is not awe-inspiring...

 

Ludmilla, I just don't get your response--whether in jest or seriousness. There seems far too much of the wrong color Koolaide being passed around these days.

[mikemorrell]

Hi, both Microsoft and Apple maintain a list of 'currently supported operating systems. Microsoft currently supports Windows 10 and 11. IMHO, it's unreasonabé to expect that PN would cater to members using outdated computers and unsupported versions of operating systems. More strongly. it would IHMO be a liability.

 

Mike

 

Message to M Jensen.

 

Hello Matt,

 

Another thought.

If it is decided to move Photo.Net to a new Platform , I hope that those of us who are using older computers and operating systems will still be able to access the site.

 

Cheers.

Message to M Jensen.

 

Hello Matt,

 

Another thought.

If it is decided to move Photo.Net to a new Platform , I hope that those of us who are using older computers and operating systems will still be able to access the site.

 

Cheers.

[mikemorrell]

A characteristic of PN threads like this one (for better or worse) is that members tend to talk amongst themselves, Often widely diverging

from the OT.

 

Just my humble opinion, For the 'in crowd' these discussions seem normal and (for a forum) 'intimate': members ' know'' each other and are comfortable sharing and discussing their responses to posts. For potential new members, the prolonged discussions on some topics may be off-putting..

 

I also suggest that the forum sub-divisions be reviewed: more emphasis on photography (and genres) and less emphasis on equipment

 

Mike

[PapaTango]

A characteristic of PN threads like this one (for better or worse) is that members tend to talk amongst themselves, Often widely diverging

from the OT.

 

Just my humble opinion, For the 'in crowd' these discussions seem normal and (for a forum) 'intimate': members ' know'' each other and are comfortable sharing and discussing their responses to posts. For potential new members, the prolonged discussions on some topics may be off-putting..

 

I also suggest that the forum sub-divisions be reviewed: more emphasis on photography (and genres) and less emphasis on equipment

 

Mike

 

Hi Mike, hope that you and yours are doing well in these trying times! We seem to have a kindred spirit in our B&W people's visions...

 

We sure are an intimate lot. Sometimes we seem in the throes of separation--or a bad family reunion.

 

I see that you jumped on board in 2007--so I know you have enjoyed many personalities here--and have been through some losses and changes.

 

I mostly want to comment on the red highlighted sentence in your post. What we are likely looking at in future "improvements" from a marketing and interest perspective is appealing to the "target audience" Fivver has identified a monied population that will likely be drawn to the thrust of your idea--the differing genres of photography. There are a whole lot of identified reasons this works within the 20-40-year-old crowd that is used to hashtags (expect them), blurbs, and linear bubbled "snacks." If you know any web developers they can inform you further!

 

My conclusion about knowledge seekers is this. There are three types of people (yeah, I know, a hasty unsupported generalization) in the world. The first make their lunch. The second expects their lunch to be made. The third simply doesn't care. We will leave the latter behind--as they only appear for a post or two and disappear. I am sure that the second category will be well provisioned with the growth of Creative Live content. But what about some of the rest of us?

 

When I restructured all of the boards on QRZ.com, much thought and community input were solicited. It is relatively impossible to reduce and conflate a variety of technical knowledge from several boards into one--unless one merges and defines purpose in a way that is accessible to the seeker. Yes, I think that a couple of our "equipment" boards could be combined--under a more broad rubric of allowable and cogent discussion for the topic.

 

This does not mean eliminating too many technical boards--but conflating, renaming, and repurposing threads is a thing to be looked at. What really remains for our consideration is whatever discussion platform that this forum is transferred to. Right now, we have a bad implementation of what appears to be Innovision. It never was a platform for showing art on the front end--and would have cost more than the CheapName owners were willing to invest to make it do so. We would have then arrived at a custom platform (ala Phil) that would have been problematic to maintain in the future.

 

Hopefully, we will still have a recognizable forum in which to make our lunch after all is said and done...

Edited March 31, 2022 by PapaTango

[za33photo]

Hi, both Microsoft and Apple maintain a list of 'currently supported operating systems. Microsoft currently supports Windows 10 and 11. IMHO, it's unreasonabé to expect that PN would cater to members using outdated computers and unsupported versions of operating systems. More strongly. it would IHMO be a liability.

 

Mike

 

Not all people have the "throw-away" mentality.

There are many "Craftspeople" , (I am not one of them) , who use old tools and equipment to produce superb work even today.

Luthiers are just one example :).

[za33photo]

A characteristic of PN threads like this one (for better or worse) is that members tend to talk amongst themselves, Often widely diverging

from the OT.

 

Just my humble opinion, For the 'in crowd' these discussions seem normal and (for a forum) 'intimate': members ' know'' each other and are comfortable sharing and discussing their responses to posts. For potential new members, the prolonged discussions on some topics may be off-putting..

 

I also suggest that the forum sub-divisions be reviewed: more emphasis on photography (and genres) and less emphasis on equipment

 

Mike

 

I also really enjoy the various discussions on the use , repair and maintenance of older Photographic equipment , together with examples of what the older equipment can do :).