Experienced Developers - Advice Sought

[ty_mickan]

<p>Hi all.</p>

<p>I have been developing film at home for some time now, however I have a few questions that I need to ask. Whilst I'm happy with my results, I wonder if can see some imrovements with slightly different technique. I use a variety of film and developers, and when visualising the final image, I always think wet print first, then scans second. I use 135 and 120 film, and print on a Durst D659. So to my questions:</p>

 

<ol>

<li>I use Ilford Hypam fixer, and usually fix for 5 minutes with two agitations (inversions) every 30 seconds. I am wondering if I need that much agitation?</li>

<li>How do people find Diafine for traditional printing? I have done a lot of scanning in 135, but nothing in 120 (my preferred format for printing).</li>

<li>Do you tap the tank (I use a Patterson system), or rap on the side of the tank with knuckles? I do the former with both developer and fixer. Is it neccessary for both?</li>

<li>For anyone who has used Rodinal with a high dilution (1:50 or above), how often do you agitate? I can get the times from Mass Dev Chart, but haven't come across agitation notes.</li>

</ol>

<p>Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me out with these niggling query's.<br>

T.</p>

[peterbcarter]

<p>4. I use Rodinal at 1:100+ and typically use for stand/semi stand developing. As far as agitation, I have left it over-night on some high ei3200 from iso400.</p>

<p>I stayed away from XTol for years, believing the rubbish of it going bad all the time. I am a bit of a convert now, getting really crisp fine developing as well as high end pushing. Nice stuff. Although I still play with Rodinal, I mostly use wd2d+ for all my wide latitude and pulling stuff and xtol for everything else.</p>

<p>An example of Rodinal. HP5+, 1:100, 2 hrs semi-stand, shake every 30 mins<br>

<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2701/4102416846_8fed887279_d.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>Here is XTol 1:2, Neopan 400 ei 3200, 20 mins on a motor base.</p>

<p><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4096/4762139330_c95ee2029a_d.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>The big thing is the results are similar but.... Rodinal in stand loves high-keyish scenes and can get no-so-good when you approach low key. The xtol is more general and results can be systematic with a lot less time. Because I invested in a $25 motor base, nether involve me much during the developing. That's how I stay consistent... ;)</p>

<p>No matter what you do, stick with something until you master it. Know what it wants, then give it to it. Before I compose the shot, I know how I will develop and print. To do that, you need to be rehearsed. Keep shooting.</p>

[murray_kelly]

<p>Dunno what the second post was all about but to your questions<br>

1. I don't give much agitation at all with the fixer.<br>

2. Diafine is fun. But all my work is less than 4x4 so can't advise there.<br>

3. I rap the tank on a hand towel. I am scared I'm going to break something one day. I only rap it during the pre-soak. After that the bubbles are gone. No more rapping! :-)<br>

4 Rodinal is not quite so easily answered. Some folk agitate for a full minute then not at all for 30-60'. Others semi-stand, giving one inversion every 5' for a total of 30'. You may like less with the film you use. You really do have to work out your own rules for that.<br>

Murray</p>

[murray_kelly]

<p>Strange thing. The second response is quite different to what loaded the first time. Apologies to Peter Carter. Nice pics, Peter. Especially like the portrait.<br>

Sorry.<br>

Murray</p>

[peterbcarter]

<p>:) No problem Murray...lol And thanks.</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>Ty, I agitate about that often. I do 5 medium speed inversions every 30 seconds (or so). Mainly, I'm looking for the film to clear. If your fixer is very strong, then you need less time than weak fixer. I then tap the tank a couple of times on a counter top with a towel on it. I use stainless tanks, but you might want to do this with the plastic ones.</p>

<p>Diafine is a nice developer. I use it with Ilford Delta 100 film when I want really sharp results.</p>

<p>1:100 with Rodinal is only starting to get into high dilutions, and I think the MDC shows times for that dilution. I use stand development with dilutions as high as 1:400 for 3-4 hours. If you're using 35mm film, you can pretty much let the film "stand" without agitation after the first 5 minutes. The first 5 min, you want to agitate normally. If you're using 120 film, you can sometimes get away with no agitation, depending on the film, but you may want to give the tank one inversion every 30-60 minutes just to ensure even development.</p>

[christer_almqvist2]

<p>If you have a Paterson tank with a stick, just twist the stick when you are fixing the film. It is more convenient than inverting the tank. I don't use the stick for developing as it may result in uneven development as per my testing. But for fixing, which is a process that is pursued until there is nothing more to fix, twisting is fine.</p>

<p>With regard to rapping the tank: if you have an old or otherwise useless film, put it on the reel and put the reel in a glass jar, fixing it to the bottom of the jar. Then add water to cover the reel, inverse the jar a few times and then rap it as you would do with a developing tank. Watch the bubbles when you rap. They don't behave like everybody thinks they will do. If you inverse 2x every 30 secs during development, then there is no need to rap the tank.</p>

<p>My experience with stand development of HP5+ and Rodinal was that 1+150 for 75 minutes was fine and that time and dilution was more important than agitation. I inverted the tank for 10-15 second at the start, then twice after about five minutes and then again twice after about 20 minutes. HP5+ was the film I liked the most for this type of development.</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>Agitate more in the fixer, you really don't want any residual halides. Within reason, you can't over-fix.<br>

I've always used a vigorous rap after pouring in the developer, but I use Nikor tanks, no fear of damaging them.</p>

 

[mark f]

<p>I agitate fix the same as film 5-10 sec per minute. I tried diafine and really hated the way the negs turned out with TriX....others love it. Lastly, I love Rodinal 1:50, agitation noted above, for 12 minutes for Acros in 120. Love it for Trix too in 35mm, but it is a grainy look. I also use xtol for TriX to get the most speed with the least grain. I am down to two films and two developers. I'm pretty happy about that!</p>

[chris_waller]

<p>1. I agitate continuously when fixing (I also use Hypam) and I use the two-bath fixing technique (for details search on Dan Scwartz, Michael Gudzinowicz).<br>

3. I take hold of the tank and slap it against the heel of my other hand a couple of times.<br>

4. I invert the tank six times in the first 30 seconds then once every 30 seconds after that. Sometimes, if the scene was very contrasty (e.g. interiors with windows) and I'm working at 1/100 dilution and the dev time is over 10 minutes, then I reduce the agitation to once per minute, or even once every 2 minutes.</p>

[ty_mickan]

<p>Thank you all so much for sharing your experiences. </p>

<p>I can't seem to get Rodinal (RO9) that readily at the moment, so I'll wait until I place another O.S. order. I'm keen to try some semi-stand development. I think the general consensus is that I might continue with my current agitation on fixer, but the swizel stick may be a better option.</p>

<p>So to clarify, if I agitate developer with 4 inversions every minute, I'll only need to rap the tank directly pouring in the chemical, and just invert thereafter?</p>

[peterbcarter]

<p>Ty, what part of the world do you live? I know in Canada, we get fussy suppliers (located in the US) that just don't want to fill out the paperwork to get it across the bored. Places like <a href="http://www.darkroomcentral.ca/cart_cart.php?cat=5">http://www.darkroomcentral.ca/cart_cart.php?cat=5</a> fill the void. Otherwise I go to http://www.freestylephoto.biz . I believe Darkroom Central will ship worldwide, if asked.</p>

<p>Agitation is an art. Generally the more you do, the more contrast you get. It also depends on the combination of film / developer how aggressive you need to be. Ex: When I use Rodinal, I gently use a swish action to help keep a gentle action over the high developed regions. But when I use Foma 100 in rodinal, I have to be brisk beceause the film is so active in that soup. My XTol likes all the vigorous abuse I give it.</p>

[chris_waller]

<p>Ty,<br>

You only need rap the tank after first pouring in the developer. After that the film surface is thoroughly wetted.<br>

Just to throw another consideration into the mix, I pre-soak the film in water at 20 C (or whatever temperature you develop at) for a couple of minutes. This wets the film. After pouring out the pre-soak water I then pour in the dev and there is no need to rap the tank again. I just give 6 inversions in 30 seconds at the beginning of the development. After that I only give <em><strong>one</strong></em> inversion every 30 seconds and I find this perfectly adequate.</p>

[christer_almqvist2]

<p>Ty,</p>

<p>truly marvellous pictures on your page!</p>

<p>Chris</p>

[mjferron]

<p>Fixer? maybe 5 inversions at the top of a minute just to get some fresh mix on the film. I always tap the tank to get rid of any bubbles.</p>

[maddog50]

<p>Ty, I use Rodinal at 1-50 and agitate for the first minute and then 4 times every minute ther after. Acros shot at 80 and developed for 10 mins. I use a condenser head enlarger, seems to work well.</p><div></div>

[ty_mickan]

<p>Peter: I live in Australia, and I can get R09 form the UK and I'll be placing an order in the next few days. I have just started shooting a bit with an old Rolleicord and I'm finding that I'm getting super low contrast. I'll get into the stand development and some harsh development for that particular camera, but some gentle agitation and shorter develop times for my Leica gear.</p>

<p>Chris: I have tried pre-soaking in the past but stopped when I started using Diafine on a regular basis, as they advise against the pre-soak with their developer. I'll have to get back into it.</p>

<p>Christer: Thank you for your kind remark. </p>

<p>Michael: I just did a roll Saturday night and used a similar technique, however I used the swizel stick. My film was perfectly clean and I'm happy with the results.</p>

<p>Mark: Beautiful image, I love Acros although I haven't printed with it. I too use the condeser head.</p>

<p> </p>

[larrydressler]

<p>presoaking with Diafine is not always a bad thing. I presoak many films the secret is to use more agitation with Solution "A" and a longer time I use 5 minutes. Same as always in Solution "B".</p>

<p> This was with Rollei 80s rated at E.I. 200 it was a contrasty shot with contrasty film.<br>

<img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4101/4785158284_3ee9a22499.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>http://www.flickr.com/photos/jokerphotography/sets/72157624349424175/</p>

[peterbcarter]

<blockquote>

<p>I live in Australia, and I can get R09 form the UK and I'll be placing an order in the next few days. I have just started shooting a bit with an old Rolleicord and I'm finding that I'm getting super low contrast. I'll get into the stand development and some harsh development for that particular camera, but some gentle agitation and shorter develop times for my Leica gear.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>If you have to get it from the UK, get two bottles. It has an amazing shelf life and it sucks to go without... ;)</p>

<p>If you find you are getting lower contrast, you need to agitate more often. But there is a trick to Rodinal. It is special in so many ways. You can agitate and still preserve those highlights. Just gently swish in a figure 8 pattern; you move around the chemical but not overly disturb the action. You can then bump up the contrast but not get too much harshness or grain.</p>

 

[larrydressler]

<p>Rodinal has many new names depending on the country it is sold in. You may want to check out the Rodinal group on Flickr as they are still discovering where to get the developer and the names it goes under.</p>

<p> Rodinal is one of my favorite developers I use it for most films under ISO 200 in 35mm and a few ISO 400 films in 120.</p>

<p> 35mm Rollei Retro 80s Rodinal 1-200 1 hour full stand.<br>

<img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4658624079_e1a574cb64.jpg" alt="" /><br>

Larger sized<br>

[kelly_bradley1]

<p>Ty I also live in Australia & I would highly recommend buying Rodinal from Les Porter in NSW. He's a lovely person to talk darkroom/film issues with & has been in the darkroom buiness for years. Just search his name & you should find his online price list.</p>

<p> I've purchased dry cabinets from him in the past & next time my chemical stock runs dry I'll get it through him.</p>

<p>BTW I'm not related to the business in anyway, I just thought it might save you postage costs from the UK.</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>I was hopeing some one in Australia would have a source as many order from the U.K or the U.S.<br>

Many in Canada have trouble getting it even in their home country as it must be shipped by ground and not air... but ground is better than nothing... There are areas in Canada that even ice road truckers don't go. :)<br>

I am in the U.S.A. and I get it sent ground also as it is like Drano it has Lye in it....<br>

I saw some person today selling it for over $60.00 U.S. I know he is nuts as I get it for less than $15.00 from Freestyle a .500 LT bottle.</p>

[glenn_mabbutt]

<p>Just to chime in on #4, I've found Rodinal 1+200, room temp, agitate for 30 sec. initially (about 5 slow "torus"-pattern inversions), then leave alone for remainder of 2 hrs. works for all films at all speeds I've tried so far in 35mm and 120 - Tri-X, Plus-X, HP5+, FP4+, Delta 3200, various Foma, and probably others I've played with (also pushed/pulled Tri-X). For me, it's become my standard, because it doesn't matter what film or speed I'm developing, because it's being developed to completion.</p>

<p>I don't doubt Peter's observation that it doesn't work well with "low key" shots for himself, but I've tried it a few times (primarily Plus-X and Tri-X) and I think they look just fine :) Your mileage may vary...</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>I am a student and teacher of Stand and semi stand development in Dilute Rodinal... and HC-110. I can say that HC-110 is much rougher as it needs to be rotated about every 10 minutes if that is rough... :) Ansel Adams loved it so why should I not... But back on track there are many great films made by Rollei/Maco and whoever Rollei puts their name on and well Many of them need the expensive Rollei developers.. so they say. I prefer to use Diafine and Rodinal on them.<br>

I used to use Diafine with sheet film and now that I have a 4x5 again I think I will use it again.</p>

<p>Not self advertisement but look at the sets I have started out with using Diafine and Rodinal for Rollei films mostly the 80s but some 200s retro and I have some of the new 100 retro on the way that is supposed to be the old APX 100 on a new base and we shall see I am shooting 120 and 35mm so there are examples on my Flickr. Yes I am the Joker to those who wondered.<br>

Ignore the Kodachrome shots... :)<br>

I started with the Rollei 80s at 1-100 too much contrast but was able to pull some things out and then I moved on from that...<br>

Notice my anti-Diafine instructions as I give it a presoak and I now do this with all films I develop in Diafine as they got rid of the Bromide drag and cleared up the shadows. That is cleared them up in a good way.<br>

You may say I am full of it but heck it works for me.. just passing along my simple outsider knowledge. I am not inbred but I have kissed a cousin.<br>

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jokerphotography/</p>

<p> Larry</p>

[murray_kelly]

<p>Larry, I see where you are coming from with the diafine and pre-wet. Don Qualls even suggests diluting A to 1:50 and using that. But I am at a loss to understand why the pre-wet needs so much agitation? It's only water you're using.<br>

Another 2-bath I've been given uses 3 very similar steps but adds sugar to the A bath to totally stop development before the B bath. Hadn't come across that before. Apparently an old Kodak trick.<br>

It's all whatever works for you and it certainly looks good in your hands (nice gallery) but the agitation of plain water bugs me.<br>

Murray</p>