Answers for the Wife

[thomas_w2]

<p>Hello, I plan on taking the plunge and buying everything I need to develop b/w film at home tomorrow. I'm in LA, so lucky to have Freestyle in town (always wondered how they stayed in business in this digital age, but i see on here that they must do a healthy mail order business). So they'll be able to help with picking the right chemicals and equipment. Been looking at the forums but still have some questions maybe you can help me with. I'm going to be developing 120 film exclusively (Yashica TLR or Mamiya RB67). And i'm only developing the film, not going to be doing wet printing. The goal is to develop film for digitizing on a good film scanner I have access to at work. I do have a little darkroom experience from 5 years ago at a local college, but all the chemicals were premixed there. Anyway, answers to these questions will make the wife feel better i think:<br>

1. Is it ok to develop at my kitchen sink or is some other area better? (I don't have a laundry or work area sink)<br>

2. How do you dispose of the chemicals? I've seen some say throw down the drain, others say no it's bad for environment (if so, where?).<br>

3. Will spills or putting chemicals down the drain stain a porcelain sink or ceramic tile?<br>

4. Are the fumes toxic or harmful? (I have a 4 year old and 2 month old at home).<br>

Thanks</p>

 

[tim gray]

<p>1 - I do it in the bathroom. That way any splash goes in the tub, which gets cleaned regularly, and only my feet come into contact with it. The kitchen should be ok, but you wouldn't want to spill any chems in a nearby cup or anything.</p>

<p>2 - Really depends on what chems you use and where you live. If you aren't on a septic tank, and are using 'normal' chems, dumping is *probably* fine, except for the fixer. Used fix should be taken to a hazardous chem dump off or a local photo lab. It has silver in it which is a heavy metal. I don't use stop so I don't worry about it. And my developer is XTOL which I've been told is ok. Long story short - look into your local regulations.</p>

<p>3 - So far, for me, no. Again I only dump XTOL and photoflo, but there hasn't been a problem yet.</p>

<p>4 - Probably not. But read the MSDS sheets for whatever you buy. And it can't hurt to work with the fan on. I will say I've not seen anything nasty on the labels of the stuff I use, UNLIKE what's on the side of Minwax varnish I bought the other day to finish a table...</p>

<p> </p>

[eric merrill]

<p>I used Xtol because while I wouldn't recommend it, I could drink it without too many ill effects. :) It was one of the least toxic developers available.</p>

<p>I loaded the tank in an interior bathroom (i.e. no windows), and then developed at the kitchen sink. Made sure all food items were far enough away they couldn't be splashed.</p>

[ken_kuzenski1]

<p>Tommy, congratulations! You'll have a great time!<br>

I do my developing in a back bathroom now. The chemicals live in a closet in the bathroom. I load my film into reels in an interior closet that can be made very light-proof very easily. I scan my negs and send them off when I want prints, as you're planning, and it works fine. (I DO miss printing, a bit, but not enough to justify the bother and time and expense, compared to sending files to Adorama for prints.)<br>

I've never had any problem with chemicals staining anything. Fixer CAN stain cloth but I've never noticed any stains on tile or sinks or anything like that. Tim's reply about fixer is probably good advice, but I've never worried about it or done anything with old fixer other than pouring it down the drain--when I learned darkroom work at a local college's craft center, the instructor said it was no problem, and I've never given it a thought since then. (Tim's answer is certainly better advice than my 'don't worry about it,' now that I think about it.)<br>

Good luck and HAVE FUN!</p>

 

[john_stockdale2]

<p>I've been doing film dev in the bathroom for 40 years. The chemicals can be put down the drain unless you have a septic system, where the silver in used fixer can interfere with the septic process (I have read this, but I have no specialist knowledge). I don't know how much silver is needed before this is a problem.</p>

<p>I have read on Ryuji Suzuki's web site that any silver in photographic solutions put into a sewer will very quickly become silver sulfide which as very inert and harmless. There is no shortage of sulfur-containing compunds available in a sewer!</p>

<p>As far as thiosulfate in fixer is concerned, sodium thiosulfate is used in water purification systems, so your fixer is unlikely to be a problem.</p>

<p>Heavily used solutions in a high volume operation would be viewed differently, of course.</p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<blockquote>

<p>1. Is it ok to develop at my kitchen sink</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Depends totally on your work habits. I've been doing it at the kitchen sink for years with no problems. I have all utensils used for processing marked <strong>Photo only</strong> if they could be remotely mistaken for any food prep item. I pour in, out, and mix carefully so as to avoid spills or splashes. Any drips get wiped up immediately and the area rinsed well also.<em> All food related items</em> get removed from the work area also.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>2. How do you dispose of the chemicals? I've seen some say throw down the drain, others say no it's bad for environment (if so, where?).</p>

</blockquote>

<p>As stated before check your local hazardous waste disposal regs. They are supplied by the trash haulers or sewer management. Most will tolerate small quantities of chemicals down the drain but a gallon or more per week will require a different approach such as taking them to a waste disposal site.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>3. Will spills or putting chemicals down the drain stain a porcelain sink or ceramic tile?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Only if you let them dry first.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>4. Are the fumes toxic or harmful?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Only if breathed for a long period of time in close proximity of said chemical. Most developers, stop baths, and rapid fixers are low odor and cause no problems.</p>

<p>I recommend using a liquid concentrate developer and fixer that you mix just before use over powders that you mix and store. Liquid concentrates last longer and require less storage space. Mixed powder can go bad before fully used.</p>

[john carter]

<p>As far as I know, there have never been any <strong>scientific</strong> studies that have shown that reasonable photographic chemical are of any health hazard. Also, I tell my wife, 'I'm at home and not out golfing or going the football games (or worse).' </p>

[walter_degroot]

<p>all advice given is good one more:<br>

do not ever use any old food or drink containers<br>

buy some bwown bottles for anthing that is stored.<br>

even put skull and crossbones labels on them.<br>

Let your wife read the MSDS before she thinks you will poison the kids<br>

and banns your developing project. I wanted to mix a cyanide / coffe lightner mix to kill roaches<br>

but my wife said no way. I had free access to all I needed or would ever want. ( my boys were young)<br>

and be sure the xtol, hc-110, or other developer is placed so the children cannot get to it,.<br>

Out of sight in a cabinet is not enough. Kids get into everything<br>

I heard of a kid that tried to eat canned shoe polish.</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>I used to have a heck of a time with some chemicals leaving chalky residue when it dried. I have no problems with Rodinal, and Ilford Stop and Fix. I also took a plastic storage container that just fit inside the sink well, heated up an area on the bottom, and pushed a wooden dowel through the slightly melted plastic, in order to make a funnel into the drain. It creates a nice liner and I don't have any problems.</p>

[andylynn]

<p>I just want to add that since you're going to Freestyle, don't make the mistake I made which was to get Paterson reels for 120,<a href="http://freestylephoto.biz/55043-Arista-Premium-Plastic-Developing-Reel"> get these instead</a> - they're much easier to load.</p>

[russ_kerlin]

<blockquote>

<p>It has silver in it which is a heavy metal.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Well, that depends on how you define a "heavy metal". Silver does not have the same same toxicity as other traditional heavy metals, like cadmium, mercury and nickel, and general consensus is that it does not fit into this category.</p>

[thomas_w2]

<p>Thanks everyone for the info and responses. Very helpful.</p>

[mark_tate]

<p>Silver is not a toxic metal , I beleive but I could be wrong in thinking it is a nobel metal with similar propertys to gold .<br>

The most common mistake peole make with home labs and processing is in the use of food containers for storing chemicals ,allways make sure that chemicals are in chemical containers<br>

For most b&w work the chemicals are not toxic but they could make you feel very ill if you was to drink them ,how ever if you are some one like my self who likes to mix up some of my own brews then some of the chemicals used are very toxic and should never be used unless in a dedicated and secure lab.<br>

Allways have the MSDS for the chemical you are using and read it befor using it but this should go for any chemical used in the home ,<br>

Most average homes have chemicals that are far more dangerous than the chemicals used for B&W film developing .<br>

There is NO SUCH THING as a safe chemical</p>

 

[bob_sunley]

<p>Silver is an excellent antibiotic, that's why its not wanted in a sewage treatment plant in large quantities, it kills the bacteria that digest the sewage.</p>

<p> </p>

[dave_s]

<p><em>Silver is not a toxic metal</em></p>

<p>Not so. Silver has well-described toxicity, although you would probably have to eat gram quantities of silver salts to kill yourself. When the dust clears, all (or at least most) metals can be toxic in their ionic forms. (Having said that, the one common darkroom chemical that would really freak me out in a kitchen would be selenium.)</p>

<p><em>I beleive but I could be wrong in thinking it is a nobel metal with similar propertys to gold</em><br /><em></em><br />Much more reactive than gold-- oxidizes easily and dissolves in acids.<br /><em><br /></em></p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>When in doubt, read the documentation on the Kodak and Ilford websites. Hard to believe, I know, but they actually have some expertise in these matters and have provided extensive information about safety, health and environmental concerns.</p>

[mjferron]

<p>One added suggestion to the good advice above. Load your film in a changing bag. Get one from Freestyle and never be in the dark again.</p>

[Alan Marcus]

<p >I have invested lots of time on the toxicity (professionally) on the photo chemical toxicity. I can tell you that photo chemicals like all chemicals must be handled wisely. For the most part, they present no severe hazard to the environment or to the household of the casual user. Developers are derivatives of coal tar. They are clear or straw colored when fresh. In time, developers oxidize and revert to coal tar. This is a staining agent, difficult to remove from porous surfaces. Photo chemicals are corrosive and in time attack all metals. Stainless is an exception but household stainless fixtures and sinks are grade 312 or 314; these are below photo grade 316. All will corrode in time but 316 is very resistant. </p>

<p >Handling photo chemicals can cause contact dermatitis. Most people never get it, but some will get a mild case. Once dermatitis is contracted, there is a good chance you will never be able to be around the stuff ever again. </p>

<p >Silver is for the most part nearly inert and therefore not toxic. However, it is a heavy metal and most heavy metals are toxic. Therefore, it gets a bad rap. The silver byproduct of the photo process contains an ion complex of silver that is toxic. The good news it has a short half life. In the sewer, it likely converts to silver sulfide after a few feet of travel. This is one of the most inert substances known and is not toxic. If per chance the ionic silver is converted on its way to the sewer treatment plant, it will convert at the plant. It settles to the bottom as silver sulfide however many municipalities consider this a contaminate and a toxin. Mainly because the sludge will likely be used in a land fill and many sites do not want the silver. </p>

<p >As I said silver gets a bum rap, drinking water filters often have a slug of silver in the center to keep the bacteria count down as the filter also captures organics and this makes for a good culture media. Silver was once used by municipalities to help with drinking water purification and it is used in swimming pools when algae becomes a problem. </p>

<p >The main problem with photo waste is oxygen demand. Photo waste takes on oxygen in the sewer system as it goes to completion to form a harmless sludge. Thus, photo waste competes with aquatic life by depleting dissolved oxygen. Big photo plants must pre-treat with aeration and pH adjustmet. Fixer on the other hand has a chlorine demand. The last thing a sewer treatment plant does is add chlorine to kill harmful germs. The chlorine remover used in tropical fish tanks is hypo (fixer). Thus the fixer down the drawn forces the municipalities to use lots more chlorine in the final treatment stage at the sewer plant. This is quite costly, so they go upstream looking for the source and tax that entity. The home photo lab is a casual user but the big photo lab was taxed and penalized. </p>

[jeff_drew4]

<p>A couple tips: DON'T use her best china or silverware to do processing! DO provide sufficient ventilation and flush the drain system with water sufficient to reduce the odors and any perception of offensive pollution. It also helps to process when she is out shopping or partying with friends! :-)</p>

[paddy_macmahon1]

<blockquote>

<p>There is NO SUCH THING as a safe chemical</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Yes - be very careful. I consumed a couple of litres of Hydrogen Oxide today and I'm really worried. Should I see a doctor?</p>

<p>Only believers in homeopathy might worry about the chemical footprint of small-scale home development - be economical with your fixer and stop bath (i.e. use it with as many films as you can) and chuck everything down the sink.</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>If all you're going to do is develop the negatives in a tank, really you could do that almost anywhere. With a little planning, you wouldn't even really need to have running water available. I usually find myself wrapping the DEV tank in a towel and walking around with it. I remember one Pnetter who described developing his films outside. There's no reason why you would have to be tied to the kitchen sink. Having a drain and running water is very convenient, but it's not absolutely required.</p>