Nikon Z8 Announced, US$3999.95

[hjoseph7]

Why do they call it a 'Hybrid' camera ?

[ShunCheung]

1 hour ago, hjoseph7 said:

Why do they call it a 'Hybrid' camera ?

I assume they mean still photo as well as video.

[robert_bouknight1]

OK, so I like the option to get much of the Z9 in a smaller form factor. 

But I am a little disappointed that stills image quality probably is not significantly better than my D850 (2017) or Z7 (2018).  Yes, a little better IQ at higher ISO's I expect and AF will be better for fast moving objects.  But I am not shooting sports any more so I don't need a Z8 or Z9.

Will be interesting to see what happens to the Z7II line.  I would for sure find a bit more money for a Z8 vs new Z7II.

Just checked the Nikon USA website, the Z7II price has dropped to $2599.95.  Makes sense.

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by robert_bouknight1

[ilkka_nissila]

3 hours ago, robert_bouknight1 said:

OK, so I like the option to get much of the Z9 in a smaller form factor. 

But I am a little disappointed that stills image quality probably is not significantly better than my D850 (2017) or Z7 (2018).  Yes, a little better IQ at higher ISO's I expect and AF will be better for fast moving objects.  But I am not shooting sports any more so I don't need a Z8 or Z9.

Will be interesting to see what happens to the Z7II line.  I would for sure find a bit more money for a Z8 vs new Z7II.

Just checked the Nikon USA website, the Z7II price has dropped to $2599.95.  Makes sense.

 

The still image dynamic range is a bit worse at low ISO than Z7 II because the sensor is read so quickly. This adds a bit of read noise. Whether this is actually noticable by human eye is debatable, but it is reported. On the other hand, with the Z8 there is no shutter shake induced vibration (so slow shutter speed images of static subjects with longer lenses can be sharper) and the AF is likely to give more keepers and be easier to use even if the subject is not moving fast. With the Z7 II one would need to use EFCS to minimize vibration but that's limited to 1/2000s and can lead to artifacts using tilt-shift lenses and at fast speeds the out of focus areas can have asymmetrical appearance. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[mike_halliwell]

@ 12:00 on the Z8 Announcement video, the presenter alludes to 9 trackable 'things'. Behind him are Human, Wild Cat, Pet Dog, Bird, Plane, Motor Bike, Car, Pedal Bike and Train.

Plane is the new one and has a nice little plane icon in the LCD tracking info box. 

My Z9 has Human, Animal or Car. All 3. or Off.

Are we going to get an Upgrade or have I missed one?

[ilkka_nissila]

8 minutes ago, mike_halliwell said:

@ 12:00 on the Z8 Announcement video, the presenter alludes to 9 trackable 'things'. Behind him are Human, Wild Cat, Pet Dog, Bird, Plane, Motor Bike, Car, Pedal Bike and Train.

Plane is the new one and has a nice little plane icon in the LCD tracking info box. 

My Z9 has Human, Animal or Car. All 3. or Off.

Are we going to get an Upgrade or have I missed one?

It's possible that they would give Z9 another firmware update with new features implemented in the Z8, but it's also possible that they now want to focus on Z8 and future Z9 II sales. One can never know until it happens.

 

In the past it has been common that cameras have slightly different sets of firmware features, without any clear justification for the differences apart from targeting certain users with specific models. This differentiation tends to annoy some users who post about it online, so for reputation it would be great if they do give updates.

 

I don't have the Z9 but I've read that there is or was some issue after a firmware update in the handoff between specific focus area modes and 3D tracking that it wasn't maintaining the focus on the subject the camera selected in the wide area or auto area mode after transfer to 3D tracking, and so the subject was lost after the transition between modes. Have you noticed this phenomena, and if you have, has it been fixed? If it hasn't been fixed in the Z9, and if the Z8 doesn't repeat this (possible) bug, then it would really be annoying if Nikon doesn't fix it also in the Z9. In fact this could affect my purchase decision. I am not sure if I would use this specific feature in such a way that would lead to the unpredictable / unwanted behavior, but since these are highly evolved cameras and there is no mechanical shutter, I would expect the camera to be usable for 10-20 years easily, and in that case a bug like that could start annoying me if future models do not repeat it. Interestingly, some Sony A1 users also complain that bird-in-flight eye focusing is worse in the latest FW than the previous ones. I guess the firmware is very complicated and bugs can be introduced.

 

It would be great if they continue updating the Z9 firmware both to get new features but also to fix possible bugs. I am leaning towards the Z9 right now as I am not happy with the idea of the Z8 with vertical grip being significantly larger than the Z9 and also almost as expensive, and I really like the way the Z9 fits my hands (having tried it but not yet purchased). However, I have requested quotations for both cameras from my local store, and we'll see what they offer. 

[Dieter Schaefer]

20 hours ago, ShunCheung said:

Ricci link. It is always good to hear directly from him. It is much easier to watch a shorter, 30-minute video.

The background music he uses for his photos sequences is unbearable😝

  

14 hours ago, hjoseph7 said:

Why do they call it a 'Hybrid' camera ?

12 hours ago, ShunCheung said:

I assume they mean still photo as well as video.

Like any other mirrorless?

Edited May 11, 2023 by Dieter Schaefer

[Dieter Schaefer]

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

Have you noticed this phenomena

I haven't. But the handoff can be tricky to accomplish and it is easy to introduce operator error. I wish there was an option to have the camera automatically make that switch as soon as a face or eye is detected instead of having to actively push a button to accomplish it myself. What I do find is that the Z9 is sometimes reluctant to change focus to something close giving the appearance that the camera is not focusing at all; nudging the focus ring usually gets things going but it is annoying. What I find very positive is that once focus is acquired on a difficult subject (like a bird among twigs), the AF tends to stick like glue.

And I do hope that Nikon will continue to provide firmware updates to the Z9 - I expect to see the same features as in the Z8 soon.

 

On the issue of Z8 vs Z9, I think I need to reverse my position. Or at the very least, if both had been available at the same time, I'd have some serious thinking to do. What annoys me on the Z8 is the two different card slots - the SD is pretty much useless to me (as it was on the D500 and D850). Also the smaller battery counts as a negative. On the positive side would be the smaller, lighter body that balances better with lighter teles like the 500PF. Adding the battery grip to the Z8 makes no sense to me at all resulting in a bulkier camera that still cannot use an EN-EL18 series battery.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Dieter Schaefer

[ilkka_nissila]

23 minutes ago, Dieter Schaefer said:

On the issue of Z8 vs Z9, I think I need to reverse my position. Or at the very least, if both had been available at the same time, I'd have some serious thinking to do. What annoys me on the Z8 is the two different card slots - the SD is pretty much useless to me (as it was on the D500 and D850). Also the smaller battery counts as a negative. On the positive side would be the smaller, lighter body that balances better with lighter teles like the 500PF. Adding the battery grip to the Z8 makes no sense to me at all resulting in a bulkier camera that still cannot use an EN-EL18 series battery.

I have also found it annoying that on cameras where I use an accessory grip, I kind of need two different L-brackets to provide ideal support for tripod work and there is some flex in the connection between the two components of the camera which can affect accurate composition when doing vertical close-up images of flowers. So if I am to get a vertical grip I would prefer it to be integrated so I only need one L-bracket for the camera and in principle it can be always mounted if I choose to do so. With the D850 one has to remove the grip to access the battery in the camera body. On the other hand some other cameras have vertical grips which don't allow the body to have a battery at the same time, but the disadvantage with those is that when they're unmounted from the camera, the grip takes more space as it has a perturbation that goes inside the camera's battery compartment.

 

However, the Z8 does present a lighter camera body with almost identical capability to the Z9 which can be a good thing especially as a second body. I would not normally want to carry two cameras with integrated grips on me when going on a shoot. Just too much weight. I guess as far as the EN-EL15c battery goes, we'll have to see how it fares in the Z8 in practical use. The EN-EL18 series batteries have been wonderful in that it removes one worry from mind when shooting; the battery just never runs out on a day's shoot if one has charged it before going out. This is on DSLRs; with the Z9 I hear two EN-EL18 series batteries can be good to have.

 

I was recently photographing some common frogs in a pond and positioned the camera (Z6 II) with FTZ and 200 Micro on a pneumatic mattress that I had to keep myself from getting all muddy on the ground. Having a small camera body can mean one can position the camera slightly closer to the ground and this can lead to cleaner separation of subject from ripples in the water. So I imagine those who photograph similar subjects or e.g. birds on water would prefer the smaller camera if they shoot from a location which allows them to get right on the ground. By the way the Z6 II was really good for those close-up shots. And I was able to get good focus using focus peaking with manual focus (the 200 Micro doesn't autofocus with Z cameras).

Edited May 11, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[Dieter Schaefer]

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

especially as a second body

Which is what I still might do eventually. The idea of having a smaller body (albeit with only one usable card and a smaller battery) for the 300PF and 500PF still appeals to me.

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

I guess as far as the EN-EL15c battery goes, we'll have to see how it fares in the Z8 in practical use.

Someone (maybe it was Ricci) stated that the EN-EL15c works quite well but that the older EN-EL15 Series batteries struggle with the power demands of the Z8. Which means that one needs to pay attention which battery one uses if one carries several different versions of the EN-EL15 (especially when charging in the camera). I have a bunch of EN-EL15 and a few EN-EL15a (that I use exclusively in the D850); I have no "b" or "c" versions at all. Apparently, the EN-EL15c last for about half as many shots as the EN-EL18d in the Z9.

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

with the Z9 I hear two EN-EL18 series batteries can be good to have.

I did purchase a second one as backup insurance; have not needed it yet. Unfortunately bought it before B&H (I believe) had a discount on them.

I recently found a different "handoff" method to use on the Z9 (and now Z8). The method I currently use is Back-button focusing with Wide-Area AF (L) that I use to find focus on the bird. Subject detection is on and as soon as it detects the face/eye, I press Fn1 to initiate 3D tracking (or Fn3 if I am holding the camera in portrait orientation). The need to press two buttons is what makes this a bit difficult to do. It also costs me two function buttons already. I have the joystick programmed to initiate focus and 3D tracking - and often avoid the handoff described above by just moving my thumb from AF-On to the joystick (risking loosing focus in the process). Sometimes, it is advantageous to turn subject detection off - which needs another function button (DISP in my case). Convoluted, complicated and prone to operator error.

Jan Wegener described another method. He uses the largest custom wide-area AF setting to find the bird via half-shutter button press and then just initiates 3D tracking with the AF-ON button as soon as te grey box appears indicating that subject detection has found a target. Haven't tried this one yet but it sounds easier and less error prone.

 

Re: L-brackets. I now carry a generic one in the bag and use when needed. Buying them for each camera body turned out to be both unnecessary and expensive.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Dieter Schaefer

[Dieter Schaefer]

3 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

but it's also possible that they now want to focus on Z8 and future Z9 II sales

Given that the Z9 is just barely 18 months on the market, it'll be premature to drop firmware support for it to focus on the future Z9II. One would at least hope so.

I think Nikon did well with the Z8 even though it now competes with itself. The camera seems to compare quite well with the Canon R5, Sony A7RIV/V and A1.

I wonder if Nikon intends to implement Sony's zebra setting that is quite useful in setting exposure. Just put the camera in manual mode and ISO on the dial in the back. Activate the zebras and turn the dial to change the ISO at a given shutter speed and aperture until you like the result in the EVF. With some experience, that works amazingly well.

[joseph_smith3]

I use my Z9 so right now I have no need for the Z8. However, if I were not a Z9 owner, I would give the Z8 some serious thought if I wanted a Nikon mirrorless body. It is smaller and lighter, but my guess is that to get through a full day's shoot, you will need to use a second battery. One advantage of the battery pack for the Z8 is that it holds two batteries (but you lose the one in the camera). And the battery pack can serve as a battery charger when not attached to the camera. But when it is added to the Z8,  you get a Z8 body bigger than a Z9. I am not a fan of two different card types, but I can live with that one. Just make sure your CFExpress card is large enough so you will not likely ever use the SD card. This assumes you have slot 2 set to overflow. 

[Dieter Schaefer]

33 minutes ago, joseph_smith3 said:

I am not a fan of two different card types, but I can live with that one. Just make sure your CFExpress card is large enough so you will not likely ever use the SD card. This assumes you have slot 2 set to overflow. 

On the cameras that I use for my general photography (especially when traveling), I may set the 2nd card to act as backup. On both  my wildlife cameras, the D500 and the D850, the 2nd card was just set to overflow and hopefully was never needed as it slowed the camera down too much. In essence, the 2nd slot was pretty much wasted. Now on the Z9 I have the option to backup to both cards simultaneously without paying a performance penalty - but so far have not found the need and find it more convenient to have a 2nd high performance card to keep on shooting when the 1st one fills. But it is good to know that I have a backup option available in case the situation warrants it.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Really not sure what to make of Nikon offering the Z8/Z9 pairing. These models are much closer together in specs and performance than the D3/D700 or the D500/D5. Attempt to increase market share by catering to those for whom the Z9 is too large, too heavy, too expensive and providing a different competing product to Canon's and Sony's offerings?

[rconey]

I don't see any advantage over a Z7 for a landscape, still shooter.

[za33photo]

No thinking or skills required......just point 'n shoot , (ooops!) 😁😁😁.

 

[ilkka_nissila]

10 hours ago, rconey said:

I don't see any advantage over a Z7 for a landscape, still shooter.

RIght, the Z7 (II) sensor is a bit better than the Z8/Z9 sensor in terms of dynamic range. However, the Z8 doesn't have a mechanical shutter and this can give it a slight sharpness advantage at certain shutter speeds with longer lenses or macro.

 

[BeBu Lamar]

2 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

RIght, the Z7 (II) sensor is a bit better than the Z8/Z9 sensor in terms of dynamic range. However, the Z8 doesn't have a mechanical shutter and this can give it a slight sharpness advantage at certain shutter speeds with longer lenses or macro.

 

To eliminate the mechanical shutter the readout must be very fast and I guess there is a trade off somewhat between dynamic range and readout speed. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by BeBu Lamar

[ShunCheung]

This is the link to the Zoom webinar with Thom Hogan and, from Paul's Photo, Mark Comon on Friday, 12 May, 2023. I believe this link is good for at least a month: https://us02web.zoom.us/rec/share/j-zTdhJ-Y9CpzNPnQadko0IOYcM0fVUQZo1gu8-fNFaO500ufQuJSq0XL1so39EL.E68FW3HXAzM0G2Uz

I also got to play around with a Nikon rep's Z8. It is about the same size as the D500. Functionally, it is very very similar with the Z9.

[c_watson1]

Whatever the resident fanboys say, Nikon is selling ever pricier cameras into a shrinking market. Given the economic realities of mid-2023, the Z8 at C$ 5400 is wide of "relatively inexpensive." Definitely not prosumer merch.

[Rob Davies]

37 minutes ago, c_watson1 said:

Whatever the resident fanboys say, Nikon is selling ever pricier cameras into a shrinking market. Given the economic realities of mid-2023, the Z8 at C$ 5400 is wide of "relatively inexpensive." Definitely not prosumer merch.

Yes, not cheap. However in line with other manufacturers in the same market segment, if a little 'better value'. 

[bgelfand]

32 minutes ago, c_watson1 said:

Whatever the resident fanboys say, Nikon is selling ever pricier cameras into a shrinking market. Given the economic realities of mid-2023, the Z8 at C$ 5400 is wide of "relatively inexpensive." Definitely not prosumer merch.

I can only compare the cost of the Z8 in U.S. dollars. When it was introduced in 2017, I believe the D850 cost about $3800 (US). Applying inflation from 2017 to the present day, it would cost $4695 today (source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI Inflation Calculator CPI Inflation Calculator (bls.gov) ) If the D850 was prosumer in 2017, the Z8 certainly is today. 

 

If I was wrong about the cost of the D850 at introduction, follow the link to the calculator and plug your onw value in, and please post back to let me know.

[c_watson1]

2017 was a world away from mid-2023. Maybe you missed all that?

[ShunCheung]

17 hours ago, bgelfand said:

I can only compare the cost of the Z8 in U.S. dollars. When it was introduced in 2017, I believe the D850 cost about $3800 (US). Applying inflation from 2017 to the present day, it would cost $4695 today (source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI Inflation Calculator CPI Inflation Calculator (bls.gov) ) If the D850 was prosumer in 2017, the Z8 certainly is today. 

When Nikon introduced the D850 in 2017, the MSRP was $3300, same as the D810 in 2014 and the D800E in 2012. Keep in mind that in February 2012, Nikon announced two flavors of the D800 and D800E. The regular version has a low-pass filter and was $3000. The E version has the low-pass filter effect cancelled out and was $3300. After that, both the D810 and D850 only have the low-pass-cancelled-out version and Nikon kept restoring to that $3300 price point.

In reality, there is mostly no inflation for camera bodies. Back in 2016, the D5 was $5500 $6500, so was the D6 in 2020. In 2021, the Z9 was $5500, $1000 cheaper. The Z8 is now a slimmed-down Z9 and priced to $4000 to compete against the likes of the Canon R5, which was introduced at $3900 three years ago. The R6 introduced on the same day three years ago already has a R6 Mark 2. I expect Canon will also introduce a Mark 2 for the R5 to restore the $3900 price point.

Essentially the low-end of the DSLR and mirrorless interchangeable lens camera market is history. Nikon, Canon, and Sony ... are all chasing the pro and pro-sumer market. Essentially having a large market share of cheap bodies in meaningless nowadays. What is important is to sell a smaller number of mid-to-high end cameras and be profitable. The challenge is that you need to keep on coming up with new features that people desire to drive new purchases.

[bgelfand]

2 hours ago, ShunCheung said:

When Nikon introduced the D850 in 2017, the MSRP was $3300, same as the D810 in 2014 and the D800E in 2012. Keep in mind that in February 2012, Nikon announced two flavors of the D800 and D800E. The regular version has a low-pass filter and was $3000. The E version has the low-pass filter effect cancelled out and was $3300. After that, both the D810 and D850 only have the low-pass-cancelled-out version and Nikon kept restoring to that $3300 price point.

Thank you for the update for the D850 introductory price, Shun. I plugged that into the BLS calculator for an August 2017 date.  The calculator reports that $3300 in 2017 has the same buying power as $4077 in April 2023 (the last date available in the calculator).  Which means that today a Z8 would cost you that same "work" or forgoing other gratifications that the D850 would have cost you in 2017, assuming the person purchasing the Z8 has the appropriate Z lenses and the 2017 D850 purchaser had the appropriate F-mount lenses. 

To me that means the Z8 is priced appropriately if Nikon considers it a D850 replacement.