Nikon Z8 Announced, US$3999.95

[ilkka_nissila]

17 hours ago, c_watson1 said:

Further evidence that Nikon is rudderless: Too-late entry into MILCs and video capability relative to Canon and Sony; retreat from prosumer merch;goofy product bombs(DFc); numb to a shrinking market for DSLRs and MILCs. Friends behind photo retail counters in Toronto don't see a winner in the Z8 since it will chill Z9 sales but not fly off shelves. Glad I jumped ship.

Don't be so negative. Nikon's Z lenses have been very well regarded by users, and so has the Z9. 

All the companies are withdrawing from consumer cameras (I mean something that is inexpensive and is purchased by all people not just those who live and breathe photography) since that market is disappearing. The Df is passionately loved by many users and wasn't a "bomb"; they sold a good number of those cameras. The Zfc is also well-liked by many people. I haven't purchased either of the two because of some details in the product designs (AF module choice in the Df and lack of full-frame sensor in the Zfc) but love the concept and would buy a camera with physical dials if implemented right. Note that Fuji has been quite successful with cameras that are similar in that there are physical dials for functions (the X100 series is so popular Fuji can't keep up with manufacturing the current model X100V even though it's been on the market for quite some time).  Nikon can also do this successfully if they iterate it a few times to get it right.

Nikon's strategy to focus on the mid and high-end of the camera market is a good choice as that part of the market is reasonably stable. Nikon was not a video camera manufacturer (unlike Panasonic, Canon and Sony who have been making video cameras for decades) and so it's understandable that it would take them a long time to become competitive in video. However, they seem to be getting there now with the Z9. And although there is this boom of doing video with what are essentially stills cameras, video and stills are completely different media and in my opinion, integration of the two is mainly motivated by money and not practicality. Newspapers decided they needed to produce video content along with stills for online users, and they didn't want to send separate videographers along with photographers and reporters. However, doing both video and stills of the same situation by the same person remains very impractical to do, so there is limited benefit from integration of the two. But the camera business seems to thrive when something is implemented incompletely, because then users will purchase those products, try them out, and then wait for updated camera that'll solve this and that problem and then purchase the next version, and the next, and so it goes, never quite reaching a complete package that will do the job right. A huge part of the features that video cameras have are still missing from hybrids. And those models which do have all the features for video don't do stills at all. The internet is buzzing with complaints about the implementation of video in stills or hybrid cameras. And this isn't specific to Nikon. Canon made a major launch of the R5 which had infamous overheating problems, then they launched the R5C which solves those with a fan but has short runtime with the internal battery. Sony users complain that they add major firmware features to improve video features to the cinema products but not the stills/hybrid line although the hardware is similar. So it's all a big mess of manufacturers giving some things and not giving others because they want to keep selling the 30000€ high-end video camera models. Nikon is pretty clean with the video features; they offer everything that they can and don't leave out stuff to protect the high-end video cameras (which they don't have). I think there is a good chance that over time Nikon will be quite popular for video because of these things. Nikon also designed the Z lineup for video from the get go, minimizing focus breathing etc. Something that Sony and Canon did not do with their E-mount and RF-mount lenses but Sony is now trying fix with a software crop (ie. when you adjust focus, the angle of view changes. When breathing compensation is turned on, the camera will automatically crop the image to maintain the field of view when focusing, but this results in resolution loss and narrower angle of view). Most Z lenses don't have this problem to begin with. Nikon came late into video because they had no history in that field, but they'll get there. 

I would expect the Z8 to outsell the Z9 by a factor of 2x or 3x (in number of units).  It does most of what the Sony A1 does but at a much lower price, and Nikon has excellent long lenses that'll appeal to photographers who shoot action and e.g. wildlife. E.g. the 400/4.5, the 800/6.3 are well-regarded, affordable, high-quality and very light-weight for lenses of their focal lengths and apertures. The Z8 is lighter weight than the Z9 but doesn't give up performance (except in heat management in high bitrate video) and this is what a lot of people want.

Edited May 17, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[BeBu Lamar]

The Z9 and Z8 are not only the only Z without mechanical shutter they are the only cameras without mechanical shutter (don't count phone and some P&S).

[mike_halliwell]

I understand the Nikon J1 had no mechanical shutter?

[mike_halliwell]

9 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

the Z6 II beats the Z9 at all ISOs in photographic dynamic range

Found this a while ago, and forgot to post it.. thanks DxO!

 

[c_watson1]

Realistic isn't necessarily negative. Fuji rolled out the X-100 and X-T series cameras ages ago. Nikon simply chose to ignore video. Same goes for MILCs. Selling pricey cameras into a shrinking market isn't exactly a long game. Neither are costly flubs like the KeyMission--remember? Maybe the future is binoculars and spotting scopes? Who knows, right?

[jose_angel]

(A bit out of topic but it's interesting to see that almost six years after the releasing of the D850 it is still on top... just a thought... )

Edited May 19, 2023 by jose_angel

[ilkka_nissila]

On 5/18/2023 at 4:08 AM, c_watson1 said:

Realistic isn't necessarily negative. Fuji rolled out the X-100 and X-T series cameras ages ago. Nikon simply chose to ignore video. Same goes for MILCs. Selling pricey cameras into a shrinking market isn't exactly a long game. Neither are costly flubs like the KeyMission--remember? Maybe the future is binoculars and spotting scopes? Who knows, right?

According to statistics from the camera manufacturers, what used to be the consumer camera market (which dominated the market both in terms of number of units sold and also in total profits) is expected to settle around 10% of new dedicated cameras sold. Given the low price of these products the manufacturers are not putting in more R&D effort into it. The other parts of the camera market i.e the enthusiast / professional market (what you call "pricey cameras") continues as before without decline. This is why Nikon's strategy is likely correct for them.

 

Nikon didn't ignore MILC; they developed the first interchangeable-lens mirrorless camera system with fast autofocus, high frame rates etc. They were the first to commercialize the technology which is now used by Fuji, Sony, Panasonic i.e. phase-detect autofocus on the image sensor itself. Before Nikon 1, everyone was using contrast-detect AF which was quite slow and couldn't keep focus on a moving subject reliably. However, Nikon's first mirrorless system was more of a technology test bed where they could develop the technology without targeting it in direct competition with DSLRs that had larger sensors. Nikon for sure didn't ignore mirrorless but they didn't want it competing against DSLRs. Canon did a similar thing with their APS-C only M system although Canon (as usual) had a bit more success with it and although their new efforts seem focused on the RF system, they haven't yet discontinued the M line. Either way those who invested in Nikon or Canon's early mirrorless cameras and lenses will eventually find themselves without a system that is actively developed. Neither company ignored mirrorless but they just didn't want it interfering with their main business. It's understandable and tends to happen with established businesses when there is a new technology that effectively requires a system rethink. Kodak invented digital cameras and a lot of technology that is today used in digital imaging but their film business was just too valuable to them to continue actively developing digital.

 

Nikon didn't ignore video either, but video and stills are distinct media and Nikon wasn't in the video camera business. They are slowly getting there with the Z system though. Nikon seem to be constantly talked about on video forums though as the Z9 and Z8 seem to be doing a bit of an earthquake. In the professional video world, the Z8 and Z9 are relatively cheap cameras. Nikon could become one of the disruptors that brings prices of professional cameras down to more earthly levels because they don't have a dedicated video camera business to protect.

Edited May 19, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[ilkka_nissila]

19 minutes ago, jose_angel said:

(A bit out of topic but it's interesting to see that almost six years after the releasing of the D850 it is still on top... just a thought... )

Right, this is because phase-detect autofocus reduces image quality slightly, and fast sensor readouts required to implement fast EVF, fast AF and high frame rates etc. also reduce dynamic range. However, these differences are relatively minor.

 

What's interesting to me is how good the Z6 II sensor is. I've found the image files remarkably easy to work with where it comes to noise etc.

Edited May 19, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[ShunCheung]

I am closing this discussion as it has evolved into the good old Nikon bashing thread. When Nikon starts shipping the Z8, we can discuss the production camera then. Production Z8 are supposed to be available on May 25, which is merely in six days.