Interesting DSLR MONO from Pentax.

[mike_halliwell]

1 hour ago, Mary Doo said:

How "pure" does one need to be?

Totally!

The normal 'process' is to use, say, 12 wavelengths of illumination light, every 50nm..

350,400,450,500,550,600,650,700,750,800,850,900nm

and record the image in monochrome.

This used to be done with band/notch filters infront of a bright white light source; now it's easier to use either a tuned light source or specific wavelength LEDs.

The absorbtion/reflection of pretty much every pixel of the image can provide a huge amount of information. If you allow the CFA, BAYER and DeMosaicing to generate such colour info, it's rubbish and completely incomparable.

[Ken Katz]

It is not a lack of courage as to why the big guys (C/N/S) have not yet marketed a monochrome only camera, it is purely a P&L rational.  They likely do not see this as a profitable area to engage, and for now, are happy to watch Leica and now Ricoh lead the charge.  If those 2 are very successful, or if the folks who convert cameras to monochrome and astrophotography are inundated with work, they may reconsider.  The last Canon astrophotography based camera was introduced about 4 years ago, but they seem to continue to make video centric versions of current mirrorless cameras, because they must believe there is a market for them.

[BeBu Lamar]

2 minutes ago, Ken Katz said:

It is not a lack of courage as to why the big guys (C/N/S) have not yet marketed a monochrome only camera, it is purely a P&L rational.  They likely do not see this as a profitable area to engage, and for now, are happy to watch Leica and now Ricoh lead the charge.  If those 2 are very successful, or if the folks who convert cameras to monochrome and astrophotography are inundated with work, they may reconsider.  The last Canon astrophotography based camera was introduced about 4 years ago, but they seem to continue to make video centric versions of current mirrorless cameras, because they must believe there is a market for them.

I doubt that Ricoh/Pentax will be sucessful (Pentax didn't make any camera I would want since the transition to AF in the late 80's) but Leica has been sucessful. As I said Nikon customers are not those who would want such cameras.

Edited April 15, 2023 by BeBu Lamar

[ben_hutcherson]

1 hour ago, Mary Doo said:

Wait a minute, can't one set a Nikon camera to shoot in B&W mode?  Some Nikon cameras may also allow adjustment of the contrast and other settings to create a custom black and white look.  

How "pure" does one need to be?  😎

, 

B&W mode on a color camera is not at all the same thing(and not something I would ever seriously use..). 
 

The Bayer array that allows a typical “color” sensor to generate a color image works by selectively blocking color information from some pixels(and stealing light in the process). The RAW processor then has to piece together actual color information from bits and pieces available, a process that works well but always introduces some artifacts. Turning this image back into B&W then just involves removing the color, although of course having the color information there allows applying contrast filters in post. 
 

Getting rid of the Bayer filter layer not only puts more light on the sensor but also cuts a lot of processing between taking the image and getting a final B&W image. That usually translates into cleaner images with smoother tones.

 

[Mary Doo]

1 hour ago, mike_halliwell said:

The absorbtion/reflection of pretty much every pixel of the image can provide a huge amount of information. If you allow the CFA, BAYER and DeMosaicing to generate such colour info, it's rubbish and completely incomparable.

Dunno.  Given your restrictive specification for a credible forensic image, maybe not even the Leica or the $2200 Pentax would fill the bill because each imaging system has its own strengths and limitations, and there may not be a single imaging system that meets the specific criteria that you need for a specific task.  Moreover, how do you know if your resultant expensive-and-inconveniently-obtained B&W image contains the full spectrum of light which is important for accurate analysis of your forensic investigation?  Just shooting the air, right?  🤣

[Mary Doo]

44 minutes ago, ben_hutcherson said:

Getting rid of the Bayer filter layer not only puts more light on the sensor but also cuts a lot of processing between taking the image and getting a final B&W image. That usually translates into cleaner images with smoother tones.

Agree.  A dedicated B&W can produce cleaner images with smoother tones but may not be suitable for accurate forensic analysis. This is because forensic analysis requires images that accurately capture all available information and details, and even a dedicated B&W camera may not be able to capture all the necessary information.

Therefore, in forensic analysis, it is probable a camera that can capture both color and black and white images may be preferred to ensure that all relevant information is available for accurate analysis.  Going 360?  The important question is what has Mike been using for such tasks? 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Mary Doo

[mike_halliwell]

10 minutes ago, Mary Doo said:

The important question is what has Mike been using for such tasks? 

I have an ancient B/W Canon 350D converted to mono. 

It's not great, but it's identified in-fill on a painting of a contemporary of Rembrandt.... and a forged cheque!

[mike_halliwell]

PS. Those are the one's i'm allowed to mention....🙂

[Mary Doo]

3 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

PS. Those are the one's i'm allowed to mention....🙂

I won't tell if you post the remaining part.  No one else knows.  🤐

[Niels - NHSN]

Pentax is already successful with this camera.

The Japanese site DC Watch reported that Pentax had to suspend Japanese preorders within only few hours after the announcement - due to an overwhelming number of orders.

DC Watch also reported that Pentax says that they will not be able to make an unlimited number of Monochrome cameras, partly because of procurement challenges of the special parts needed, but also because the manufacturing process is very slow compared to the regular color version.

It is also possible that very few monochrome cameras will be exported outside Japan given the high domestic interest in the camera.

[mike_halliwell]

1 hour ago, Niels - NHSN said:

the announcement - due to an overwhelming number of orders.

So, it's not just Nikon who get 'Unexpected Demand' for things...!

🤣

[ilkka_nissila]

15 minutes ago, mike_halliwell said:

So, it's not just Nikon who get 'Unexpected Demand' for things...!

🤣

Of course. Every manufacturer has these issues today. Nikon-complainers just like to complain that it's somehow a Nikon problem.

[mike_halliwell]

Reminds me of the old joke whose punchline was....

"You're the 5th person I've told today, "There's just no demand"!

🤣 

 

[Niels - NHSN]

31 minutes ago, mike_halliwell said:

Reminds me of the old joke whose punchline was....

"You're the 5th person I've told today, "There's just no demand"!

🤣

 

I guess this got lost in translation for those of us not living where you do.

[mike_halliwell]

2 minutes ago, Niels - NHSN said:

lost in translation

The fact that you've told many people asking for a 'thing' on the same day that 'There's no demand', is direct proof that there is indeed, high demand!

It may be the Japanese market is particularly keen on mono cameras and Pentax/Ricoh think it would be a much cheaper direct competitor to the Leica M10/M11.

[Niels - NHSN]

54 minutes ago, mike_halliwell said:

The fact that you've told many people asking for a 'thing' on the same day that 'There's no demand', is direct proof that there is indeed, high demand!

It may be the Japanese market is particularly keen on mono cameras and Pentax/Ricoh think it would be a much cheaper direct competitor to the Leica M10/M11.

Thanks Mike. 
What exactly is the old joke?

[Mary Doo]

15 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

The fact that you've told many people asking for a 'thing' on the same day that 'There's no demand', is direct proof that there is indeed, high demand!

Hmm, perhaps I am lacking in humor.  On face value it seems the joke lies in the absurdity of pushing a product that nobody seems to have any interest in.  (?)

[ilkka_nissila]

3 hours ago, Mary Doo said:

Hmm, perhaps I am lacking in humor.  On face value it seems the joke lies in the absurdity of pushing a product that nobody seems to have any interest in.  (?)

If someone has to tell many people that there is no demand, the fact that it has to be told to many people who are interested in the product shows the contradiction in the assumption (made by the few) that there is no demand.

 

Having a BW camera has potentially the advantage of much higher sensitivity than making black and white images from RGB sensors. The disadvantage is that if one wants to alter the spectral response, then one needs to do it with optical filters rather than in post-processing.

[Niels - NHSN]

Monochrome cameras have been a minor but successful product for Leica for more than 10 years.

No reason such a product shouldn't also find a customer base among people without Leica-deep pockets.

Pentax will likely be the last-man-standing in the DSLR space and it makes perfect sense to expand their niche with other value added initiatives such as this. 

It should be celebrated IMO. It expands the diversity of enjoying photography and doesn't take anything away from anybody.

[ilkka_nissila]

16 minutes ago, Niels - NHSN said:

Monochrome cameras have been a minor but successful product for Leica for more than 10 years.

No reason such a product shouldn't also find a customer base among people without Leica-deep pockets.

Pentax will likely be the last-man-standing in the DSLR space and it makes perfect sense to expand their niche with other value added initiatives such as this. 

It should be celebrated IMO. It expands the diversity of enjoying photography and doesn't take anything away from anybody.

In Japan, Pentax's market share in DSLRs is in the single digit percentages so I very much doubt they will be the last one that will continue to make DSLRs. I don't know what Pentax's worldwide market share is in DSLRs but Canon and Nikon still make them in large numbers. Also it's interesting that Canon sell more EF lenses than RF, illustrating the strength of their DSLR mount.

Edited April 17, 2023 by ilkka_nissila

[ben_hutcherson]

1 hour ago, ilkka_nissila said:

In Japan, Pentax's market share in DSLRs is in the single digit percentages so I very much doubt they will be the last one that will continue to make DSLRs. I don't know what Pentax's worldwide market share is in DSLRs but Canon and Nikon still make them in large numbers.

I don't have hard numbers, but I can say it's quite literally been over 10 years since I've seen a Pentax DSLR in the flesh. The person using it I know is a dedicated Sony user now. None of the stores I'm familiar with carry Pentax/Ricoh, so I wouldn't be able to handle one before trying, and I've not seen one pop up in a used case in a very long time. 

Granted seeing any ILC out in people's hands is not that common these days, but I still feel like I see a lot more Canon and Nikon DSLRs than I do anything else. Sony is not an insignificant presence, and I see more Sony cameras than I do R/Z cameras, but DSLRs still seem to top all. The last wedding I was at(last summer) was photographed by a locally known and respected pro, and he was using a current-ish Canon 5D and a bunch of L glass.

[Mary Doo]

5 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

If someone has to tell many people that there is no demand, the fact that it has to be told to many people who are interested in the product shows the contradiction in the assumption (made by the few) that there is no demand.

Dunno, may be it's the mystique of British/European humor?  I love one-liner comedy shows, but this one - if your interpretation is what it is - would have me laughing inappropriately.  - Not cool of me.  😎😂

[mike_halliwell]

18 hours ago, Mary Doo said:

Dunno, may be it's the mystique of British/European humor?

Maybe....!

🤣

[Niels - NHSN]

22 hours ago, ilkka_nissila said:

In Japan, Pentax's market share in DSLRs is in the single digit percentages so I very much doubt they will be the last one that will continue to make DSLRs.

Pentax announced a little while ago (a year, maybe two?) that they do not intend to go the mirrorless route, but will maintain building DSLRs.
There has been no such vocal commitment to DSLR's from Nikon/Canon, and I think it is safe to say that few expect that new DSLR's will come from these two sources - although they may continue to produce what they have for a while.
Pentax's commitment let me to think that they may well be the last standing DSLR maker in the near future.

Pentax has a loyal following in Japan. To me it seems that Pentax (and to some extend Ricoh) in recent years has become a company with increased focus on their Japanese home market.
I don't know their sale numbers, but a few percentage points may well be enough to occupy the space they aspirer to occupy - the Japanese market is large.

I have lived in Japan for several years and I think many people are unaware how prominently photography is engrained in Japanese culture. There are dozens of photography themed printed magazines on the newsstands - and even more MOOKS being published on a regular basis catering to the most obscure variations of photographic interests.

There are hundreds of brick and mortar locations in, for example, Tokyo; catering to both digital and analogue photographers, and seeing locals (not only tourists) with a real camera around their neck when going for a walk is very common.
I never see that to remotely the same extend in European and American major cities.

Well, all this babbling  just to make the point that I don't think Ricoh/Pentax is fumbling in the dark. A few percent of the Japanese market may be vastly more valuable than similar percentage points in other markets. 
We tend to think that what we personally experience is applicable to the same degree elsewhere, but it may not be entirely correct.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Niels - NHSN

[Mary Doo]

2 hours ago, mike_halliwell said:

Maybe....!

🤣

While I do understand the intended perspective of the joke, it doesn't immediately resonate with me as most one-liners do.  😀