To Z7, or not to Z7, or Sony?

[Andrew Garrard]

Maybe I have had some 'bad luck' with Nikon, but Nikon UK's attitude just stinks. It seems that they just don't take complaints seriously, and will sit on a returned item until the customer decides to put up with a minor issue, rather than be without the lens or camera for weeks on end while being 'examined' and finally declared 'within spec.'. I have never had a swift turnaround from Nikon UK, not since I first started using Nikon gear in 1975 or thereabouts. But it does seem to have got a lot worse in the last 20 years. Then again, I rarely had cause to complain about Nikon gear until I bought a D700 shortly after it was introduced. The metering on that camera was less consistent than any TTL metered camera I'd previously owned. So bad it got me into the bad habit of 'chimping' nearly every shot.

 

I've mostly had reasonable experiences with Nikon UK, except that they're not very quick - but I've mostly only asked them to do sensor cleans. They did report a sensor scratch (on a D700) that I think could only have been caused by their previous cleaning, claimed my 135mm DC was "in spec" (which it would have been if I were into disco) and needed to be told the difference between field curvature and barrel distortion when I asked whether my 14-24 was okay (and their tendency to forget that I asked to come and collect my kit rather than have it posted because that bit of the form got printed on the back)... but they've been pretty friendly. I'd give a more glowing review if I'd managed to arrange a meeting to go through the ideas list with them rather than have them pass on the email - but they do claim to have passed it on. I've not had the major list of equipment failures that RJ has suffered though - I've not had much worse than a D700's grip come loose when it was left in the sun.

 

I actually vaguely remember getting on with the D700 meter. It's every one since that I've not trusted. Mostly it's fine, but I do a lot of underexposing and relying on the dynamic range if the lighting is iffy. I'd really be a lot happier if raw histograms were a thing, or if it were possible to turn on overexposure blinkies based on the raw file rather than whatever the JPEG has decided to do.

 

On Shun's XQD point - they're certainly pricey, but I was out shooting (rarely) over the weekend and chimped through my shots, and I have to say the D850 detectably slowed down once it got to the SD card - despite only having JPEGs on the SD and 14-bit compressed raws on the XQD, and despite having the fastest UHS-II (and XQD) I could find when I bought them. That said, two slots, unlike the Zs, which is an issue for some.

[CvhKaar]

and I have to say the D850 detectably slowed down once it got to the SD card - despite only having JPEGs on the SD and 14-bit compressed raws on the XQD, and despite having the fastest UHS-II (and XQD) I could find when I bought them. That said, two slots, unlike the Zs, which is an issue for some.

 

Okay, a bit off-topic now, srry for that.. :

I might be wrong here, but this makes sence to me, since the camera then has to process 2 different formats, compressed raw and jpeg, and has to write them both, i think.

Did you try just an SD card and writing raw only?

[Andrew Garrard]

Okay, a bit off-topic now, srry for that.. :

I might be wrong here, but this makes sence to me, since the camera then has to process 2 different formats, compressed raw and jpeg, and has to write them both, i think.

Did you try just an SD card and writing raw only?

 

Sorry, to be clear the issue was with image review - scrolling through the raw files on XQD (which, okay, would have been pulling out the JPEG previews) went appreciably faster than scrolling through the JPEGs (which may or may not have had any previews embedded). It may just be the format change that did it. I was just pushing the multi-controller to the right, and looking at the rate at which images changed - which is scarily (animation) fast in any case on a D850 compared with previous bodies. Since multi-card Nikons don't group images recorded on both cards (one that was on the feature list) they weren't both being accessed concurrently.

 

I think I did an experiment back when I was trying to take long bursts of cheetahs running to try to see whether recording JPEG to SD slowed down the recording of raw to XQD. I don't entirely remember the result - I've a feeling there wasn't much in it (in terms of when the buffer filled), but I think I just recorded raw anyway, just in case. One thing that didn't make the feature list was a virtual "RAID 0" - run the two card controllers separately, and feed the next image from the buffer to whichever of them is currently free. I'm not sure how programmable the card controllers are, though, and whether the current configuration would actually gain any performance from doing this - it very much depends where the bottlenecks are in the system.

[rodeo_joe1]

I hardly ever shoot fast bursts, so storage speed shouldn't be an issue. Plus, Sony have so much faith in their XQD cards, that they don't use them in their own cameras! What does that say?

 

We all have our prejudices against certain brands. Me, I would never touch Fuji again after being ripped off and corporately lied to over the specification of the first digital camera I bought (not to mention the horrendous barrel distortion of its lens).

 

I'm not that angry with Nikon; their stuff has served me well over the years.... but, their after-sales hasn't been great in recent years, and I feel they've lost any quality or technical edge they may once have had. For example, a comment was made about the D800 being 8 years old, in a 'what do you expect' sort of way. Sorry, but my F2s are both working fine after 6 times as long - that's what I expect.

 

A maintenance service shouldn't mean replacing broken switches or an extensive and expensive strip-down to put back parts that shouldn't have fallen off in the first place! And nowhere have I seen a fix for Nikon's sloppy AF system that IMO just doesn't work properly by design.

 

As the man about to be stoned in 'The Life of Brian' said: How could it be worse?

[Andrew Garrard]

I think that might be a little unfair to the rate of progress, Joe. A D800 is still a very capable camera (admittedly, if it works) - as is a D700. My F5 (admittedly 25 years old, but certainly newer than an F2) works, but is basically an antique, and feels like comparing a mangle to a washing machine. I've picked up my (2004) Eos 300D not that long ago and, well, it does feel a lot more refined than my Eos 620, but it's also a mile behind even where my D700 was. Picking up a D90 (IR converted) recently was quite a shock in how far things have come. The D800 did have autofocus alignment issues due to a quality control problem (mine was fine, actually) - but autofocus systems are struggling more with higher resolutions, and you can see an AF miss with a modern lens and a high MP sensor where it might have been hidden in the mush before. My D810 was more reliable - although possibly also not quite as good in low light; the D850 is better except for the 3D tracking snafu. There have been a few user interface mis-steps, but Nikon are hardly alone in that. The D850 feels like a "the best we could do" camera with relatively little penny pinching or desire to incite future upgrades; this may bite Nikon in the next generation, and it certainly affects Z-series sales a bit.

 

I suspect every camera manufacturer (probably every company) has done something evil at some point. While trying to find out about LCD backlights on the FA (another thread) I saw that Nikon US had asked Leofoo to take down manuals for copyright, and I certainly don't support Nikon shutting down local repair shops. On the other hand, it felt like Canon deliberately crippled the 300D compared with the 10D (I have hacked firmware that restores some features). There were rumours of a 5D2 for a very long time before they actually launched one, and that seemed to be only because Nikon forced their hands with the D700 - as a Canon customer at the time, I'd have dearly loved to see one of the intermediate iterations that were apparently in testing. That annoyed me at the time, enough that I didn't feel disloyal switching when the D700 came out, but I don't hold a grudge now.

[andylynn]

As much as I hate to say this... have you looked at Canon? If you don't want Nikon, and you do want a well designed mirrorless, and it has to be 24x36, Canon would be at the top of my list. If APSC will do, Fuji should be on the short list too.

[BeBu Lamar]

I think that might be a little unfair to the rate of progress, Joe. A D800 is still a very capable camera (admittedly, if it works) - as is a D700. My F5 (admittedly 25 years old, but certainly newer than an F2) works, but is basically an antique, and feels like comparing a mangle to a washing machine. I've picked up my (2004) Eos 300D not that long ago and, well, it does feel a lot more refined than my Eos 620, but it's also a mile behind even where my D700 was. Picking up a D90 (IR converted) recently was quite a shock in how far things have come. The D800 did have autofocus alignment issues due to a quality control problem (mine was fine, actually) - but autofocus systems are struggling more with higher resolutions, and you can see an AF miss with a modern lens and a high MP sensor where it might have been hidden in the mush before. My D810 was more reliable - although possibly also not quite as good in low light; the D850 is better except for the 3D tracking snafu. There have been a few user interface mis-steps, but Nikon are hardly alone in that. The D850 feels like a "the best we could do" camera with relatively little penny pinching or desire to incite future upgrades; this may bite Nikon in the next generation, and it certainly affects Z-series sales a bit.

 

I suspect every camera manufacturer (probably every company) has done something evil at some point. While trying to find out about LCD backlights on the FA (another thread) I saw that Nikon US had asked Leofoo to take down manuals for copyright, and I certainly don't support Nikon shutting down local repair shops. On the other hand, it felt like Canon deliberately crippled the 300D compared with the 10D (I have hacked firmware that restores some features). There were rumours of a 5D2 for a very long time before they actually launched one, and that seemed to be only because Nikon forced their hands with the D700 - as a Canon customer at the time, I'd have dearly loved to see one of the intermediate iterations that were apparently in testing. That annoyed me at the time, enough that I didn't feel disloyal switching when the D700 came out, but I don't hold a grudge now.

 

How about software? Nikon doesn't sell the Nikon Photosecretary software for the F5 any more but do they allow us to make copies and give to others? I guess they don't but that is something I am against.

[jose_angel]

As much as I hate to say this... have you looked at Canon? If you don't want Nikon, and you do want a well designed mirrorless, and it has to be 24x36, Canon would be at the top of my list. If APSC will do, Fuji should be on the short list too.

Few years ago I switched to Fuji X RF for its smaller size/weight and classic shape... I like its VF hybrid system very much, very good construction, the image quality and functionality is right, so I'm reasonably satisfied but... what I really miss is the Nikon user interface. Fuji controls and menus are ok but not as friendly to me as Nikon; too much buttons and in the wrong place, "flat" non friendly menus, etc.

 

Anyway, although I use the Fuji way more than my Nikons, I still keep a full cabinet loaded with good DSLR Nikkors. I keep them just in case... but I think the Z system ask for Z lenses. Maybe (in order to save some money) it makes sense to have at least a quality compact standard range Z zoom (if such thing exists, I'm not up to date), and to use that "old" (shorter/longer/prime) lenses when needed. Thanks God I don`t have NAS, but still think that I can switch back any day...

Edited April 21, 2020 by jose_angel

[jose_angel]

Double post, my excuses.

[Gary Naka]

Tough choice.

 

Sony is on "I think" their 4th generation of cameras.

That gave them a lot of time and several generations of products, to iron out the bugs and advance the product.

I have a couple friends with Sonys, and they said same as what was mentioned here, the camera is great, but the UI stinks.

I have not handled a Sony, so I cannot comment first hand.

Nikon and Cannon are on their 1st generation of FX/FF mirrorless cameras.

Granted they had decades of SLR and dSLR experience to build on, plus smaller mirrorless, so their 1st gen FX mirrorless is pretty good.

But as was mentioned, why Nikon only put ONE card slot in the Z6/Z7 is a puzzle. My D7200 has TWO card slots.

As much as many complained, I am glad that Nikon ditched the F mount for the Z mount. The F mount had gotten really difficult, with the various lens to body coupling methods, and which mount worked with which camera and lens, compared to the one Canon EF mount.

While I moved from DX to m4/3 (for weight reduction), a Z6 at a good price would be VERY tempting.

[ShunCheung]

Plus, Sony have so much faith in their XQD cards, that they don't use them in their own cameras! What does that say?

First of all, Sony does use XQD cards on some of their camcorders, at the higher-end, pro-sumer level.

 

Why Sony doesn't use XQD and CFx on their high-end cameras is beyond me. Perhaps keeping the size small is their priority. Even Canon has now switched to CFx, in fact dual CFx on the 1Dx Mark III. The earlier Sony A9 has one SD UHS-1 and one SD-UHS-II card was just a joke for an action camera. What that tells me is that Sony still don't quite know how to make pro-level cameras yet. At least the A9 II has dual SD UHS-II now.

[Mary Doo]

why Nikon only put ONE card slot in the Z6/Z7 is a puzzle.[/quote

 

Guess: (1) space/design consideration. (2) Saving on one fast card only avoids multitasking at critical moments and thus improves shooting-saving speed?

[robert_bouknight1]

I bought an A7 a few years to use with some legacy MF lenses. My experience with mirrorless technology and the smaller body form factor was good, experience with A7 itself not so good. The camera was "balky", often found a reason not to take a pic, then it failed beyond economic repair (and the service experience was not good).

 

Replaced the A7 with an A7RII which was better than the A7, but I did not love it. Happily replaced it with a Z6 that I have really enjoyed other than I have not figured out how to use it as a sports/action camera (yet).

 

As posted on PN, a bucket list trip to Europe last year that would involve much walking with gear was the excuse to get the Z6. That camera, with 14-30, more than met my expectations. In fact, I sold the D810 I had after returning. I think my "happy with results" percentage is higher with Z6 than with a D810, so I was not using the D810 much. I still have a D3s & x for action that I don't shoot much now.

 

The 14-30 is enough of a reason by itself to have a Z camera. Maybe the more recent Sony cameras are better than the two earlier ones I had, but the Z6 interface and system works better for me. I purchased a Z7 a few months ago after selling the D810. Am trying to convince myself that I don't need both, but will add that I am not sure which of the Zs I would sell.

 

One other thought. The only Sony item I miss is the 28/2. C'mon Nikon, hurry up and release a semi wide semi fast pancake lens.

[rodeo_joe1]

So basically, it comes down to the user interface being the only stumbling block with a Sony MILC.

 

WRT Canon, Fuji etc, I don't want to further muddy the waters by throwing those into the mix. Leaving aside my long-held grudge against Fuji, they do too much pointless tinkering with sensor geometries, without actually coming up with a sensible tri-colour array, or healing up the gaps between the currently over-sharp RGB filtering.

 

Canon? Been there and done that with a 5D - now there was an abysmal UI! I'm sure they've vastly improved things, but nothing Canon's come up with grabs my attention. Apart from a couple of nice T/S lenses.

 

Back to Sony's much despised UI. I hear many complaints, but Sony are still shifting lots of Alpha series cameras, so how bad can the UI be? Or how good is the image quality to overcome a kludgy UI?

 

I must admit that Sony's A7riv user manual seems a bit dumbed down compared to Nikon's Z7 manual, but I haven't waded through both of them to the bitter end yet.

 

However, I'm definitely leaning towards the more mature Sony offering. Impenetrable UI notwithstanding. I quite like a challenge!

[andylynn]

Well if you’re not going to take our input there’s nothing we can do to save you from Sony menus.

[robert_bouknight1]

Hmmm, well in addition to "menu" user interface, there is camera body in hand (prefer Nikon), button feel and layout, ease (not perfect) to switch between MILC and DSLR for the best tool for assignment, other intangibles.

 

Maybe I am just used to Nikon for many years even though I was late adopting AF and digital, but I feel confident that a Z6 or 7 is likely to get the shot I want at least for anything but sports. I never had that trust when using the A7RII or especially the A7.

 

Re sports, I have not tried very hard to optimize the Z for action. Maybe it is time for me to work on that a little.

[Andrew Garrard]

I believe the RX100 has a subset of the same menus as the A7 series; I found there was certainly a lot of hopping around looking for things, but frankly I can't say I've not had the same problem from Nikon sometimes (I've never really understood what constitutes whether something is classified into the "photo shooting menu", the "custom settings" or the "camera setup" - and I certainly don't consider memory card formatting to be part of setup). I'd gladly try to rationalise it, but even my optimism about getting Nikon to incorporate changes doesn't make me believe they'd accept a completely new menu structure from an outsider.

 

There have been complaints about the feel of Sony's buttons (especially before the latest ones), including whether you can use them with gloves on. Which I imagine is critically important for some people, and irrelevant to me. I do like Nikon's grip, but it doesn't stop me from wishing that the front dial wasn't on the underside of the middle finger grip so you didn't have to loosen your grip in order to turn it, for example. Nothing's perfect, and Sony and Nikon seem to have the same philosophy (as opposed to Canon's, which doesn't seem designed to keep a finger on the shutter release).

 

I'm sure the choice of a single XQD slot or SD cards was a size thing (and possibly cost, for SD). I can vouch for a real difference in buffer write performance between a fast CF card in a D810 and a fast XQD in a D850, and it really matters if you're bursting images at high MP (which the D850 is better at anyway). I've once used a slow SD (class 10!) card for raw from a D810 because I ran out of space on my alternatives, and clearing the buffer took nearly a minute sometimes. It does seem to make a big difference to image review as well, although I'm sure some of it is the newer Expeed. So... I'm reluctantly with Nikon on using XQD - reluctantly mostly because I quite like being able to slot an SD card straight into a laptop without a card reader when I'm in a hurry. Single slot, less so - a lot of complaints about these bodies were about them being too small and needing a grip extender, and I think Nikon found the need to differentiate where they may not really have needed to.

[Albins images]

In short: S*NY will never get my money again.

Bought an RX100 to accompany my Nikon DSLR's.

Loved it: small, great image quality - exactly what I wanted it for!

 

* Then after 2,5 years it stopped working. *

'The Internet' came up with a common problem: a broken wire leading from the lens group,

S*NY said: ""Too bad! total loss!" and even a long correspondence with the repair unit and the company couldn't persuade them to come forward with an acceptable proposal.

Mind you: Half-a-year over the warranty period! With a camera that was loved and surely not abused.

 

So.. THERE is my recommendation against the S-company.

Hoping this bad service will cost them more than helping me would have..

[conrad_hoffman]

You probably shouldn't get the Nikon. I'd rather you were here complaining about the Sony because that will help Nikon sales and their long term viability. ;)

[rodeo_joe1]

I sometimes check on the Sony/Minolta forum, and it appears to be quite dead.

 

No requests for help with camera or lens issues. No moans about the UI. In fact almost nothing.

 

You'd think that if Sony cameras were as bad as some people are alleging, then there'd at least be a few moans and whines on there.

 

If people come here to whinge about light leaks in 40 year old 'blad film-magazines, you'd think that the supposed increasing pile of broken Sonys would elicit a few posts. Wouldn't you?

[Mary Doo]

Looks like it's better to go ahead with the Sony, or you will be forever wondering. Surely not every aspect is 100% but neither is Nikon. I am glad I have tried the Olympus M43 and I have a good idea of the situation. Both are good cameras if one does not pick something to get upset over. I bet it's gonna be that way for you too.

[bgelfand]

Back to Sony's much despised UI. I hear many complaints, but Sony are still shifting lots of Alpha series cameras, so how bad can the UI be? Or how good is the image quality to overcome a kludgy UI?

 

Only you can say how good or bad the UI is for you. This is a big, and over time will be, an expensive move. In your position, I would download the manual, read it, and then rent (or better still borrow) the Sony and try it for at least a week. A week should be long enough to uncover any "show stoppers".

[BeBu Lamar]

I sometimes check on the Sony/Minolta forum, and it appears to be quite dead.

 

No requests for help with camera or lens issues. No moans about the UI. In fact almost nothing.

 

You'd think that if Sony cameras were as bad as some people are alleging, then there'd at least be a few moans and whines on there.

 

If people come here to whinge about light leaks in 40 year old 'blad film-magazines, you'd think that the supposed increasing pile of broken Sonys would elicit a few posts. Wouldn't you?

 

I have no interest in the A7 so I don't know but I was considering the A6000 and after I down load the manual I found that I can't comprehend it.

[Ed_Ingold]

The Sony menu system is indeed daunting. However at some point in time they added column headings with guide you quickly to the desired 2-4 pages. There is also a Function menu with 10 boxes to which can be assigned nearly any function, including some which are not found in the menu proper, and accessed instantly by pressing the Fn button. There is also a custom folder in the menu list which can be assigned any menu item in any order for things you use the most, but not button-worthy. Finally there are half a dozen or more buttons to which can be assigned the most used shooting options.

 

The buttons, Function and custom menus can be tailored to your mode of operation - normal or video.

 

I find any camera (or complex software) is easy to use if you know what you want to accomplish. Later on, you can try things you hadn't thought of doing.

[ben_hutcherson]

How about software? Nikon doesn't sell the Nikon Photosecretary software for the F5 any more but do they allow us to make copies and give to others? I guess they don't but that is something I am against.

 

SIdetracking I know, but I would really love to find a copy of AC-1ME. I have the cable, but the software is elusive. Nikon won't sell it, and I've yet to see it for sale on Ebay.

 

Sites like Macintosh Garden and their Windows equivalent thrive on a gray area called "Abandonware". It's technically illegal, but they operate on the principle that if software is no longer available from the publisher and/or the publisher is no longer around, there's no legitimate way to get it other than find increasingly scarce original disks. A handful of companies encourage it, on the principle that interest in their old products drives interest in current ones.

 

To make my point again, though, I just really want a copy of AC-1ME. If I could get it legitimately, I would, but I can't find it that way or otherwise. I have a saved search on Ebay that alerts me if it gets listed, and it hasn't popped up in 2 years.