G.A.S rangefinder or mediumformat?

[Ricochetrider]

Hi Gary and Conrad, same rationale as to what i said to movingfinger. Looking for something with an interchangeable lens system.

Gary, i know it sounds silly considering that for most people they would choose a Hasselblad over a Mamiya or a Pentax easily but the option of a rangefinder/slr style viewfinder is very appealing to me. Although the Hasselblad does have a prism style viewfinder, it does seem some what silly to use a Hasselblad with a prism.

Hi!

As has been mentioned:

If you want a rangefinder AND medium format camera, why not simply combine them and get a Fuji “Texas Leica”- one of their MF rangefinders! 6x7, 6x9, your choice!

 

Dante Stella

 

there are also Bronica and the Mamiya 7 & 7 II cameras. Far as I know the later Fujis and the Mamiya “II” models have upgraded lenses and components.

 

BTW I have a Voigtlander R3m and love it. The aforementioned rangefinder Mag cameras are large- the R3m is tiny but makes nice photos- and Voigtlander’s lenses are superb!

 

I wanted a 6x9 and had a vision of an older camera- so I ended up with a folding Voigtlander Bessa from the 1930s! Just shot 2 rolls so far, initially I fired a roll of T Max thru but then decided I’d shoot some expired film to see how old film in an old camera feels. I don’t shoot a lot of expired film tho typically but what the heck.

 

Oh and my *other* (film) camera is a Hasselblad 500cm.

 

So I’m at 2 rectangles and a square.

Full throttle, baybay, hit the G.A.S.!

 

edit: one thing about the RF is you need to be able to SEE to focus! I tried a couple antique rangefinders and it didn’t go well- the R3m has what is supposedly one of the if not the brightest rangefinders at a 1:1 ratio so it’s pretty easy, even on my (no longer 20/20) eyeballs.

[Ed_Ingold]

Are you looking for a shooter, or something to put on display in a glass cabinet?

 

IMO, the Mamiya 7ii is one of the best landscape cameras ever made, in terms of a compromise between size and image quality. The lenses are sine qua non, and the camera is small enough to fit in a backpack (or ordinary camera bag). I have never owned one, but gave it serious consideration. I never cared much for the Pentax 67, because of its size, weight and disjointed clatter when fired. You must close an auxiliary shutter on the Mamiya when changing lenses, and the rangefinder must be tuned at regular intervals. Lens choices are limited, and often hard to find.

 

For classic looks and solid performance, the Leica M6 would be a good choice. It is a camera you would most likely take with you, especially in an urban environment. You trade the accuracy of an SLR for speed and an innocuous appearance. You have a wide choice of lenses, most with good availability, limited only by the depth of your pocketbook. Then there is a high degree of "pride of ownership" to consider.

 

My personal deviation from practicality was Hasselblad, for both appearance and flexibility. Having shorted many rolls of film in 35mm, the ability to change backs mid-stream was a desirable feature. Ultimately I bought a digital back, which added 10 years to its life on the road, and was my first choice for landscapes. The black and chrome would look good on display, but it's still in a case, ready to go, with 7 or 8 lenses.

 

As to what works best for display only, I couldn't say. I don't go for that, personally, but whatever goes with the Wedgewood would work just fine.

[orsetto]

If you can afford it, I'd agree with Ed_Ingold that the best compromise system among those you've listed is the Mamiya 7II. You get a large, easy-to-compose 6x7 format, very compact and lightweight body with eyelevel unreversed rangefinder viewing/focusing, modern AE exposure metering, very quiet, vibration-free and accurate leaf shutter in each lens, and the lenses are inarguably the most high-contrast glass ever offered for any medium format camera system. People put up with several annoying quirks of the Mamiya 7 bodies just to use the incredible lenses, tho there is a faction that finds the high contrast and resolution somewhat "clinical" compared to other medium format choices. I'm guessing that your interest in high-contrast images would be well suited to Mamiya 7 lens rendering. (The Mamiya 6 is the same type of camera but square 6x6 format instead of 6x7, with fewer lens options).

 

Drawbacks of the Mamiya 7II are mostly limited to the camera bodies, which have disappointing build quality given the price point. This was the result of Mamiya tripping on a sidewalk crack and banging their corporate head into a brick wall when they first designed and marketed the 6 and 7 rangefinder systems. These were initially intended as Japan-only offerings at relatively affordable prices: all the R&D money was put into creating the finest possible lenses, while the bodies were more hastily thrown together and built down to a certain retail price that was considered palatable to the target Japanese customer.

 

This all got upended when Mamiya pulled a 180 and decided to market the 6 and 7 as premium luxury systems outside Japan: all they did was double the price, while the build quality remained decidedly lower than the new nosebleed price implied. So the wonderful 7I lenses are chained to a plastic camera body prone to nagging issues with film advance, rangefinder stability, rangefinder accuracy across lenses, and electronic issues. These issues can be addressed with a proper overhaul by a Mamiya 6/7 repair specialist, and indeed some 6 and 7 bodies have already been upgraded with improved replacement parts. If you plan on using the 150mm lens a lot, the rangefinder calibration should be adjusted to favor accuracy with it vs the shorter lenses (you can get good focus with the shorter lenses if the RF is calibrated for 150mm, but not vice-versa).

 

The Fuji "Texas Leicas" are clunkier and less appealing than the Mamiya 6/7. Shutters are louder and more likely to need service. The lenses are fixed: for each format (645, 6x7, 6x9) you can choose either a normal lens or a moderate wide angle version of the body. The 645s have built-in coupled meter, the 6x7 and 6x9 do not. A few versions of 6x9 Fuji had interchangeable lenses, but these tend to be old and the lenses aren't easy to find.

 

If you feel yourself leaning more toward a reflex than RF system, look at the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S or Pro-SD and final, most recent lens lineup marked "K/L". These are very sharp, contrasty lenses (in some cases approaching Mamiya 7 performance). Drawbacks: size, weight, separate film advance/shutter cocking, fully mechanical with no coupled meter option, and if you attach an eyelevel prism the thing is about as portable and maneuverable as a sack of potatoes. The electronic RZ67 variant has optional coupled AE meter prisms, but some RZs develop electronic bugs that turn them into battery eaters.

 

Pentax 6x7 has great lenses but a nightmare focal plane shutter that can be a difficult to work around for sharp results. Final "67II" model is a known horror show of bad engineering choices.

 

If the square seems a more appealing reflex option, consider a Bronica SQ instead of the legendary Hasselblad. The Japanese Bronica offers reliable electronic leaf shutters in each inexpensive lens, vs the appalling expensive-to-service mechanical shutters that plague the otherwise-lovely Hasselblad lenses. Bronica shutters never break, and if one did you just replace the entire lens for half what it costs to service a Hasselblad lens. The Zeiss glass for Hassy is very nice, but the Bronica Zenzanon glass nearly matches it, and prices can be vastly lower (compare a 40mm Zenzanon to a 40mm Zeiss CF-FLE). Bronica also offers a nice integrated side grip with advance lever and shutter button, plus fully modern AE meter prism if you want that. Hasselblad only offers clumsy uncoupled meter prisms, unless you sell your car to buy one of the rare, buggy, unrepairable electronic 200-series 'blad.

 

The Hasselbald is a legendary classic, beautifully made and inspiring to use, but its quirky and fussy beyond the pale and upkeep costs for the lens shutters can bankrupt you. I love mine, but if you choose a 'blad (or Rolleiflex or Leica), go into it with your eyes open and wallet prepared for the heavy-duty overhauls many of them need to work correctly. European cameras with mechanical shutters and/or rangefinders tend to be money pits compared to their less romantic Japanese counterparts.

 

Leica M is what it is: you either love it to the point you'll sell a kidney to own it, or you settle for the less expensive Ikon or Bessa alternatives. All can share the same lenses.

Edited January 28, 2020 by orsetto

[Moving On]

I keep coming back to the Nikon on the rangefinder choice.

New camera in the box that covers all the bases for sturdy, dependable, well outfitted fully mechanical rangefinder in this price range.

Excuse me but I’m loving this camera for its classic beauty, function, quality, and compact simplicity.

Around $1900.00 on EBay....

[Jochen_S]

i did look into TLRS however i prefer a camera with an interchangeable lens system

Mamiya C330? - Takes pictures*. Weighs more than Rollei. Used to be most affordable (late 80s).

*=ISO 400 BW film, hand held, slightly stopped down based statement. I bought mine, shot it that way and was never interested if it would be outperformed by something else compared on PanF.

• If you aren't very rich, you'll be unable to really enjoy MF, without a own darkroom. OP mentioned one, I had one. Frown into your crystal ball; if you see a darkroomless future, buy 35mm (if it has to be film). & Shoot color (in 35mm!) if you want others to process your stuff.
  

Leica M is what it is: you either love it to the point you'll sell a kidney to own it, or you settle for the less expensive Ikon or Bessa alternatives

Well put!

I suggest changing your attitude about handheld meters. reading mine to know what challenges I'll face if I'll bring or pull out my camera makes me happier. I am no fan of the trafic light read out in the Leica finders (as provided by M8 etc.) I happily don't own a M6 and recommend a bright findered M2 or would buy another M4-P beater.

• I own more than one quite decent camera that is unlikely to take great pictures because I am too lazy to carry it around just in case... Sit down fill an Excell sheet with googled weight of various dream kits' components. & Think (twice?)!
  

Let me toss baby press camera kits into the system choices at hand. Linhof maybe? Make sure you'll get an entire kit with cammed lenses you might like. Worry a bit about the bellows (they like to rot). Offered movements will be limited with wide lenses but might be fun for tabletops and such. Shooting portraits with rangemeter and VF is an option.

 

I love shooting T-/SLRs with chimney finder. Prism findered blown up 35mm SLRs like Pentax 67 or my Pentacon Six demand too much lifting, for my taste. I also wasn't happy with the Pentax' lack of close focusing options (compared to a 35mm SLR). I am talking regular lenses tight headshot in mind here.

 

Look for (kind of) locally offered stuff, read up about it and make your purchase decission hands on. Life is full of compromises. Why should your camera bag be different?

 

I don't know if Brassai shot coated lenses. I suppose those old masters were or had darkroom staff better & more skilled with dodging & burning than at least me. In doubt we lack darkroom skills more than an extremely fancy camera.

 

I appreciate & respect @orsetto 's overview & insights about the entire market. I doubt us now to depend on picking the entirely right and bestest camera as much as professional ancestors, back in the film age. Attempting to clarify: If *insert band* are going to play on quite dim stage later; what are we going to do in 2020? While I'd hope to be more likely to nail a 35 or 50mm @f2 shot with my Leicas than with my various k-mount SLRs, I am no longer willing to crank 4 or more rolls through them, as I might have done in the 80s & 90s. To shoot like crazy &/ spray & pray, I'd bring digital. Film became just an option / a hobby and limited to most promising occasions.

 

Evaluate your needs and what might make you happy. Stumble into something promising and stick to it.

 

I was quite impressed, younger than 25 and kind of broke, when I handled a Mamiya 6 in a store. The knob wound squinty little Agfa Super Isolette* that I inherited as my first real camera is lighter than the Mamiya and has a fixed 75/3.5 competing with my TLR glass. Carrying it and one TLR + 55 & 135mm lenses didn't break my spine. - Why buy something else? (I added 2nd cheap older body, 80mm & 250mm later). (*=1st: I didn't pay the prices asked for it now. 2nd: I don't want to sound recommending it enthusiuastically. At least the Soviet copy is known to be unreliable. - Film counter issues; mechanics not made for eternity & really heavy use...)

 

Leica killer argument: Once you have something bigger, to deploy instead, you 'll start fuzzing less about the ultimate imaginabel quality of smaller format stuff.

 

Be somewhat realistic, what whatever you'll buy will do, with your film funds and darkroom hours' capacity in mind. From hindsight I recommend going kind of cheap and modest plus keeping your purse shut quite tightly, to maybe someday buy something really fancy and capable digital, that is light enough to accompany you most frequently. (Leica M doesn't really check the "capable" box in my previous sentence, when I think about latest eye detection AF development or IBIS.)

 

Since FSU RFs got suggested and at least some FEDs come with built in Selenium meter: Their RF patches seem dimmer than my M3's that would benefit from resilvering i.e. is no longer "great". How much fun are interchangeable lenses with all (non-50mm) of them demanding auxiliary view finders? Who sells kits that will really work? - The RF couplings of the 85mms I got seem far off. - Rather go Canon.

I never handled a Nikon RF. My film Leicas were a tad cheaper, older, more abused but at least gave me the lenses for the digitals later.

[Moving On]

Good point about ‘the lenses on cameras like the Nikon RF.

I wouldn’t spend that kind of money on a RF if I wanted anything but the lens that comes with it.

Not a fan of all the hoops involved adding things to accommodate the other lenses.

 

I have a tiny, light Pentax ME super that is 40 years old if I want a small camera with multiple lens capability.

 

The darkroom point about MF is a good one and the main reason I resist pulling the trigger on going to a larger format.

I can do the 35mm BW in the bathroom with minimal equipment/storage space and still get prints from someone if I choose.

 

There comes a point where you have enough stuff and the ability to use it well has to play catch up. That’s where I will be for some time now.....

Edited January 28, 2020 by Moving On

[ruslan]

[ATTACH=full]1327368[/ATTACH] I keep coming back to the Nikon on the rangefinder choice.

New camera in the box that covers all the bases for sturdy, dependable, well outfitted fully mechanical rangefinder in this price range.

Excuse me but I’m loving this camera for its classic beauty, function, quality, and compact simplicity.

Around $1900.00 on EBay....

Is it yours?

[Moving On]

That one is on eBay.

I bought mine off eBay about a year and a half ago. It came exactly as you see in in the picture and they appear to have gone up about $400 but they are still a great value for my money.

Here is a photo of mine....

Edited January 29, 2020 by Moving On

[WJT]

My vote is for the Pentax 67II or even the older 6x7; I have used both for many years. The lens selection is very good and they perform very well. The cameras are just like a big SLR and are easy to hand-hold, especially if you attach the optional wooden handle. On the down-side the X-sync is really at an awkward shutter speed for fill flash however there is a leaf shutter lens option available. With the 67II you can have the option of TTL aperture priority auto metering and it is very accurate.

[nikkolee]

Update: I tried out a couple TLR’s and the Hasselblad 500.... but the pull of the Pentax was too strong.

Snagged a handsome minty late 67 MLU along with the SMC 55mm f4 lens for $650

Thanks for the advice and comments everyone :) Cheers

[conrad_hoffman]

Cool!

[Brad_]

iPhone 11 Max. Or what for the 12.

[orsetto]

Snagged a handsome minty late 67 MLU along with the SMC 55mm f4 lens for $650

 

Congrats on finding a camera you like! :)

 

But be sure to shoot the heck out of it over then next week or ten days to be certain all is well while you still have a return window. All medium format cameras have Achilles Heels to look out for: in the case of Pentax 67, its the film advance. Test this by shooting two or three rolls, it doesn't matter of what, you just want to make sure frame spacing is good.

 

Also fire off a roll using whatever setup you expect to be your most common (portrait, landscape, flash, no flash, tripod, handheld, etc): again, don't worry if the weather or subjects are blah. What you want to determine quickly is whether the gigantic focal plane shutter of the Pentax will or will not be a problem for you. For some people with some lenses in some scenarios, P67 shutter shock makes it impossible to get sharp results. For others, its perfectly fine. Similar issues arise with Hasselblad: it looks like a great handheld camera, but a lot of people find it very difficult to get sharp results at shutter speeds below 1/250.

Edited January 30, 2020 by orsetto