Nikon New Camera Teaser, FX Mirrorless to be Announced on 23 August, 2018

[BeBu Lamar]

Anyone know what the rough cost of an FX sensor is these days? I'm just curious what the premium is to Nikon. In a dSLR, there's the larger mirror and prism to allow for, but in mirrorless it's just the sensor and shutter.

 

And perhaps if they really do it right no shutter. Sony got close to that with their A9, Nikon would really beat them if the camera has no shutter.

[Andrew Garrard]

Some Sigma and Tamron lenses - my previous generation 24-70 Tamron isn't compatible with the dock, for example. And I doubt my 8mm Sigma is, although it's screwdriver anyway. I still maintain that the dock is useful functionality provided a really stupid way, compared with just putting a USB port on the lens that you could update in situ. Nikon would presumably update some lens firmware for you if you asked nicely. And there's always the "tape over the contacts" approach to making a lens look manual.

 

The D7200 is, I believe (Thom Hogan did a recent list), officially discontinued, as is the D810, which has the same problem (although it's only on the DX AF-P lenses - the FX ones have VR switches I believe). But you don't get VR control if you decide (for some reason) to put a DX 70-300 on a D750, Df or D5, all of which are current.

[Andrew Garrard]

I am just teasing you about super rich. When I said super rich I really meant to the level of at least Bill Gates and in that case I may spend a few millions to have Nikon make me a camera my way.

 

Ah. Yes, that would help me fix a lot of Nikon's UI problems! (I don't need them to spend engineering effort, I need them to let me sign an NDA and hack away at the firmware for them.)

 

But anyway, no, not super rich, just in a lot of debt. My cameras are effectively jointly owned by my bank and credit card company, and I'm hoping they continue renting them to me.

[Dieter Schaefer]

"My D7200 will work with the AF-P lenses, but it CANNOT turn the VR off."

 

- Are you sure about that?

It's unfortunately true - for the simple fact that Nikon so far has not (and thus likely will not) provided a firmware upgrade like they did for other models. AF-P VR lenses that don't have a VR switch on the lens have no means to turn VR off on a D7200 (the FX version of the AF-P 70-300 has a switch on the lens).

 

bear in mind some of the Sony 7-series are CDAF only

AFAIK, the A7R is the only one - ancient history now. Sony is still running the A-mount "DSLR" line parallel to the newer E-mount system but hasn't given it much love since the FE line has taken hold and off (not even the APS-C sensored E-mount line-up has received much attention).

 

Nikon was already taxed providing full support for FX and DX (as the utter lack of lenses for the latter shows); adding the third leg of FX mirrorless will not make things easier on them. Just look again at Sony - how long it took them to provide a reasonably competent lens line-up for the FE-mount (short for FX E-mount) camera bodies. Whatever Nikon's initial lenses for the mirrorless are going to be - there will be a lot of photographers who won't be happy with whatever that initial selection. I assume we'll see a "lower" MP (like 24MP) FX body first (direct competitor to the A7III), maybe with some f/4 zooms just like Sony did. I'd be more surprised if the initial offering was a "higher" MP (like 45MP) FX body in direct competition with the D850 though I hope that Nikon will come out with one each initially (the use of the singular "camera" in the press release doesn't leave much hope for that though).

 

For me personally having one leg in Sony mirrorless there's mainly one advantage in that system: size and weight of the lenses I do own. The FE 12-24/4 is unparalleled in the DSLR world for weighing a scant 1 1/4 lbs and the Sony 28/2 and Samyang 35/2.8 are smaller and lighter than anything on offer for DSLRs. By contrast, Sony's 70-200/4 is neither smaller nor lighter than its Nikon DSLR counterpart (and the same is true for many other Sony/Zeiss lens offerings). For others, the mirrorless advantage is in silent shooting and/or video and to some extent the EVF. In some aspects, AF on a newer Sony FE body performs better than anything currently available in a DSLR but the plethora of mode choices makes it even more of a challenge to pick the right one for the job. In most cases a lot more control is relinquished to the camera than many DSLR users are familiar or comfortable with.

[Andrew Garrard]

It's unfortunately true - for the simple fact that Nikon so far has not (and thus likely will not) provided a firmware upgrade like they did for other models. AF-P VR lenses that don't have a VR switch on the lens have no means to turn VR off on a D7200 (the FX version of the AF-P 70-300 has a switch on the lens).

 

I believe that's true even of models like the D5, D750 and Df which have had firmware updates. Why it's difficult to add an on/off switch in a menu I don't know (although I suppose there could be something about the mount controller). Only the D850, D500, D3400, D5600 and D7500 get it right.

 

(CDAF Sonys)

 

AFAIK, the A7R is the only one - ancient history now.

 

And the A7S 1 and 2.

 

Sony is still running the A-mount "DSLR" line parallel to the newer E-mount system but hasn't given it much love since the FE line has taken hold and off (not even the APS-C sensored E-mount line-up has received much attention).

 

I thought I remembered them officially discontinuing it some time after the relatively recent A99mk2. I could completely have imagined that.

 

I assume we'll see a "lower" MP (like 24MP) FX body first (direct competitor to the A7III), maybe with some f/4 zooms just like Sony did. I'd be more surprised if the initial offering was a "higher" MP (like 45MP) FX body in direct competition with the D850 though I hope that Nikon will come out with one each initially (the use of the singular "camera" in the press release doesn't leave much hope for that though).

 

I was assuming that as well, but rumours indicate otherwise. I'll be interested to know how accurate they are. The D610 and D750 are more in need of replacement, since the D850 is still out of stock in some places in the US I believe. If mirrorless is supposed to be cheaper to make, positioning it lower would make sense to me - but reality may be different.

[BeBu Lamar]

 

But selling Nikon for less than Sony is actually not result in more sales. It's difficult for Nikon mirrorless to be significantly better than the Sony offerings so selling them for less wouldn't result in more sales. Selling them for somewhat more would make people think that Nikon long history of camera is worth something.

[Dieter Schaefer]

I thought I remembered them officially discontinuing it some time after the relatively recent A99mk2. I could completely have imagined that.

The A99II was announced in Fall of 2016 and the last about A-mount I remember is from a year later where Sony stated that they will continue to develop A-mount cameras and lenses.

 

A7S 1 and 2

I keep forgetting that those even exist :( Anyone using these for anything but video anyway?

 

I have to say that I am disappointed in how Nikon is handling this - we have a rather useless teaser video and the announcement of an announcement at a later date. The only real information so far is: ONE mirrorless camera, more than one lens, a new mount, an adapter for some F-mount lenses, and the continuance of their DSLR development. One would be hard pressed to put less information into a press release. From the video it appears that at least one lens will be a prime, not a zoom. Too little, too late to keep people from moving over to Sony?

 

According to Thom Hogan, Nikon was playing with all options regarding the mirrorless: DX vs FX, old mount vs new mount - now at least we know which way the cookie crumbles. Can we now PLEASE get some more information as to what IS coming? What exactly is Nikon's DSLR vs mirrorless strategy? Can we get a timeline/roadmap?

[Andrew Garrard]

But selling Nikon for less than Sony is actually not result in more sales. It's difficult for Nikon mirrorless to be significantly better than the Sony offerings so selling them for less wouldn't result in more sales. Selling them for somewhat more would make people think that Nikon long history of camera is worth something.

 

Hmm. Leica try that. Charging for the M series is one thing. Are Leica selling lots of CL mount cameras? The Nikon brand may get people interested, but the camera will have to stand on its own. Like the 1 series, which - for all its merits - wasn't what the market needed.

[mike_halliwell]

"And there's always the "tape over the contacts" approach to making a lens look manual."

 

.....and there's a whole new meaning to 'full compatabilty' I hadn't even considered.....:)

 

Are most chips in Nikon lenses 're-programmable' regarding firmware?

[Andrew Garrard]

Are most chips in Nikon lenses 're-programmable' regarding firmware?

 

I'm sure they are in modern ones - there have been several that needed updates (notably the 200-500). AI-P, I doubt. AF but not AF-D I could believe are also trivial, and only talk focal length and aperture - but I could be wrong. AF-S lenses I'd have more confidence in.

[Andrew Garrard]

The A99II was announced in Fall of 2016 and the last about A-mount I remember is from a year later where Sony stated that they will continue to develop A-mount cameras and lenses.

 

I'll put it down to my vivid imagination. Though I'm not expecting a load more to hit market.

 

(A7S)

 

I keep forgetting that those even exist :( Anyone using these for anything but video anyway?

 

Video is obviously the main benefit - they're good low-light stills cameras (if you can focus), but using the whole sensor for video capture is, or was, unusual. I was almost tempted by one (a few years back) for very low light shooting, since they're a lot cheaper than a D5 (or even a D4s, or Df). But then I remembered how much Sony charge for lenses.

 

I have to say that I am disappointed in how Nikon is handling this - we have a rather useless teaser video and the announcement of an announcement at a later date. The only real information so far is: ONE mirrorless camera, more than one lens, a new mount, an adapter for some F-mount lenses, and the continuance of their DSLR development. One would be hard pressed to put less information into a press release. From the video it appears that at least one lens will be a prime, not a zoom. Too little, too late to keep people from moving over to Sony?

 

If the lens is very fast (e.g. f/1) that shows off the mount, there may be a reason for it. It's hardly a portable lens, though. It could be an internal zoom, possibly. Nikon could certainly fend off some concerns by saying more, but they'd probably put people off more with things they don't say. "Senator, did you sleep with intern A? No. Did you sleep with intern B? No. Did you sleep with intern C? No comment."

 

According to Thom Hogan, Nikon was playing with all options regarding the mirrorless: DX vs FX, old mount vs new mount - now at least we know which way the cookie crumbles. Can we now PLEASE get some more information as to what IS coming? What exactly is Nikon's DSLR vs mirrorless strategy? Can we get a timeline/roadmap?

 

Oh, you're assuming that Nikon is actually going to be sensible and explain what's coming, like Fuji. We're Nikon shooters - we should be honoured with whatever they give us! There is a fixation in some regions of some companies I've met on assuming that the brand is wonderful and everyone should just be grateful to work there. I was recently reading a letter in an old - but not that old - Amateur Photographer from a Kodak employee, saying he'd never shoot digital and he didn't see what the fuss was about. Especially with the older companies, there's a tendency to have over-confidence in your own solution, just because it's been popular. Time moves on. Nikon are adapting, but not necessarily in all ways. They can reduce my cynicism, but they'll have to earn it by more than being Nikon.

[Ed_Ingold]

Teasers like this are a common ploy to keep people on the edge from jumping to a new system. Apple uses it, Microsoft uses it, and so does Sony. What we don't know is what will appear once the smoke clears and the mirrors are withdrawn.

 

Will the new Nikon go head to head with their existing DSLR lineup, with professional features, or merely appeal to general consumers. all sizzle, no steak. That's a tough call for Nikon executives, because every sale of a professional mirrorless camera is one less DSLR out the door. Sony represents a huge force in the mirrorless market, and they're not standing still either. Their top of the line cameras are being sold at a $200 discount, which usually precedes the introduction of a new camera or two. The Nikon label may be enough for current DSLR users, but not nearly enough to draw Sony customers back to orthodoxy, nor entice new customers who look for features and system depth.

 

The next two months are going to be interesting.

[ilkka_nissila]

It is not a choice between Nikon DSLR and mirrorless but for many people it is a choice between Nikon mirrorless and Sony/Fuji/Olympus/Hasselblad etc. mirrorless, and Canon vs. Nikon DSLR. By being present in the full frame mirrorless market, Nikon can get new customers, not just preventing their old customers from moving to other systems.

 

There is nothing unorthodox about using Sony cameras; they were present from the very beginning of the digital compact camera market, and are very established in TV and video production. Mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras are a bit of all-in-one, stills + video + compact camera, so it is a natural extension of Sony's established markets.

 

My preference is with optical viewfinders but I am glad to see Nikon take this new market seriously for their own financial well-being and of course for those photographers who prefer this type of a camera.

Edited July 25, 2018 by ilkka_nissila

[Sandy Vongries]

hot off the "press"

Nikon Announces the Development of a Full-Frame Mirrorless Camera!

[BeBu Lamar]

I would think that if Nikon manage to make the camera without the shutter then they are ahead but then Nikon were great at making things mechanical and in doing so it would take out the last thing that Nikon is good at in a body.

While typing I am thinking once again perhaps the mechanical skills from the Nikon engineers can produce the great IBIS and also sensor shift imaging.

[mike_halliwell]

A D850 size and quality chip with sensor shift tech in a mirrorless body would be a truly awesome studio cam.

 

I wonder if they'll ever make any more 'niche' cams such as the D810A..... Monochrome maybe?

 

Not sure if mirrorless makes any difference to ease of manufacture of odd-balls?

[ilkka_nissila]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Nikon's electrical engineering skills; their cameras generally produce the cleanest files in the intended applications of the cameras and the files are written quickly to storage, whereas other cameras produce banding, striping, posterization, struggle to write the files quickly on the cards, and have annoying operational delays in the user interface, zooming in etc. Nikon cameras are fluid to use, you almost never have to wait for them (in the mid to high end models), the image quality is excellent, and batteries last a long time in use so they are very power efficient. I can't remember any of my Nikon DSLRs crashing, hanging, rebooting, or stopping to function due to overheating. There was an overheating problem in one of their flashes though (SB-900), in hot sunny daylight conditions or in heavy use, but the newest SB-5000 does not. They know their optical, electrical and mechanical engineering, but struggle with software for mobile devices and general purpose computers. Edited July 25, 2018 by ilkka_nissila

[Dieter Schaefer]

I can't remember any of my Nikon DSLRs crashing, hanging, rebooting, or stopping to function due to overheating.

Overheating happened to me once - was either a D7100 or D7200 while shooting in hot conditions in Anza Borrego Desert State Park. The camera stopped functioning but things returned to normal once I got the camera back to a cooler place. I've recently used a D500 under even more adverse hot conditions (the camera got quite hot to the touch while shooting at an airshow) but kept going nonetheless.

 

The time any of my Sony mirrorless cameras takes to boot up is truly disappointing and sometimes infuriating.

 

Their top of the line cameras are being sold at a $200 discount, which usually precedes the introduction of a new camera or two.

There appears to be always some kind of discount on the cameras (if not the lenses that are often priced above those of Sony's competitors). Also, Sony tends to give large monetary incentives to those upgrading from existing Sony cameras or switching from other brands. I got a new A7 at a discount because I purchased at a store event and traded in my NEX-6. I upgraded from the A7 to the A7II because of the $400 incentive on top of the trade-in value for a lens - a good thing because so far it appears that Sony cameras can barely make 1/4 of their new price on trade-in and also rather quickly go to 1/2 price when purchased or sold used.

 

If the lens is very fast (e.g. f/1) that shows off the mount, there may be a reason for it.

I don't understand where this desire for fast (f/1 or even f/0.7) lenses comes from. Or more precisely, I know the often cited reasons: shooting at lower ISO and shallow DOF. Especially for the latter, I have my doubts because most Nikon lenses (other manufacturers too) I have tried are quite burdened with longitudinal chromatic aberrations (bokeh fringing) when shot wide open (indicating that even the use of ED glass doesn't result in a truly apochromatic lens) - one reason I just traded the Nikon 85/1.8G for a Tamron 90/2.8 macro.

 

My preference is with optical viewfinders

It appears mine is too - though I hope that Nikon could manage to include the two-axis level indicator from the Sony A7 series camera somehow as on overlay on the optical viewfinder of a DSLR (instead of the two indicators at the sides). I tend to prefer the clearer image in an optical viewfinder even though it does not give me the "correct exposure" information the allegedly WYSIWYG EVF does. Unless someone implements going back in time (possible with storing the image displayed in the EVF) I can't capture the precise moment of what I see in any viewfinder anyway.

[Andrew Garrard]

Ilkka: Don't forget the D800 locking up in live view until the image was written to storage. Or the pixel doubled live view mode. Nikon haven't always got it right. What they have managed is a fair degree of refinement in the running of the firmware - I give them credit for that, and I certainly don't doubt their image processing. It's more the top-level decisions (menu structure, control positions), a slightly blinkered approach to how the camera works, and that I've heard nothing good about either their PC software or (mostly) snapbridge.

[ilkka_nissila]

True, but in normal operation it wasn't slow compared to other high resolution cameras available at the time. What else was there in 2012 that could do 36MP? Medium format digital, which is another whole league of slow.

[Andrew Garrard]

I don't understand where this desire for fast (f/1 or even f/0.7) lenses comes from. Or more precisely, I know the often cited reasons: shooting at lower ISO and shallow DOF. Especially for the latter, I have my doubts because most Nikon lenses (other manufacturers too) I have tried are quite burdened with longitudinal chromatic aberrations (bokeh fringing) when shot wide open (indicating that even the use of ED glass doesn't result in a truly apochromatic lens) - one reason I just traded the Nikon 85/1.8G for a Tamron 90/2.8 macro.

 

Oh, absolutely. I'm not after an f/1 lens. But the typical complaint, in as much as people complain, about the Nikon mount (other than not being able to adapt anything to it) is that it's apparently f/1.4 limited for AF lenses. If Nikon are "in pursuit of light", they may be going after the faster Canon glass.

 

though I hope that Nikon could manage to include the two-axis level indicator from the Sony A7 series camera somehow as on overlay on the optical viewfinder of a DSLR (instead of the two indicators at the sides).

 

Your problem there is having a single-digit camera. On the D8x0 bodies the level is overlaid on the finder (and the meter is at the bottom). On the other hand, since I've not checked, can the D5 show grid lines and the two-axis indicator at the same time? (The D8x0 bodies can't.)

 

Unless someone implements going back in time (possible with storing the image displayed in the EVF) I can't capture the precise moment of what I see in any viewfinder anyway.

 

That's on my feature list - burst capture continuously to the internal buffer, but allow retrospective selection rather than writing them all to storage. Better still when the frame rate at 8K ramps up and you can do an electronic shutter (ideally global shutter). Something used to have a mode where it would do this, then pick the "best" image algorithmically - I wouldn't turn that down, but I'd like a manual version too.

 

And yes, I had relatively few complaints about the D800e. The D810 just knocked off a lot of rough edges, and the D850 has done the same to the D810.

[BeBu Lamar]

Perhaps Nikon will introduce an f/0.95 (I hate that when they make 0.95 and not 1) with great bokeh to go with a body which has native ISO of 25? Making a sensor with low native ISO can result in a high resolution and very low noise image.That would make the no DOF people happy.

[Dieter Schaefer]

Your problem there is having a single-digit camera.

Unless you mean the A7, I don't. And even that one I don't own anymore (A7II and A7RII aren't single digit in my book):)

On the D8x0 bodies the level is overlaid on the finder

Not the kind I want - I want the Sony style (here is the link to an image, albeit from an A55, the one in the A7 series looks the same though: http://www.stayfocusedpress.com/blog/images/equip/a55/IMG_0171.jpg) not two bars (one at the bottom and one on the right side). I can't see both of them at the same time and leveling becomes a hit or miss proposition while handholding. With the Sony, it's a breeze since the indicators is dead smack in the middle while sufficiently unobstrusive. What also bugs me with Nikon's implementation is that I can't make it permanent, wasting yet another function button to call it up.

 

I am almost glad I never sat down and create a list of my grievances with Nikon equipment - otherwise I may have switched already:mad:

Though I am quite certain my Sony list would be at least twice as long:rolleyes:

Edited July 25, 2018 by Dieter Schaefer

[Andrew Garrard]

Ah, sorry Dieter. I may have conflated you with Ilkka for the second time today. (I really should meet some of you people...)

 

I've not really had a problem levelling with the D8x0 series, but YMMV. I will get that list done at some point, maybe even soon. (I have the list, it's explaining everything that'll take time, and I have two weeks to write two conference presentations...)

[Gary Naka]

The leveling indicator in my D7200 is black, which means I have to LOOK at it to determine if/when I am level. The indicator is not usable when the background/image where the indicator is is dark, as I cannot see the level indicator.

 

The bright green indicator in my Olympus EM1 tells me that I'm level without me looking at it. It turns green when level. So even if it is on the bottom and side like the Nikon, when it turns green or stays green tells me I am level. I already have so much stuff in the screen that I would rather the level not be in the center.