Best (Least Grainy) B&W Film

[brian_hirschfeld]

<p>what is the Best (Least Grainy) B&W Film?<br>

thanks, </p>

[SCL]

<p>Panatomic X if you can find somebody who has stored it and willing to sell it to you. I've also enjoyed Efke 25 and Ilford Pan F.</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>You have a can of worms here as B&W is not cut and dry like that. Much depends on the exposure and developer you use the way you use it and what you are willing to sacrifice for less grain.<br>

I would not even venture to go here. But and I say BUT. A micro film or other film designed for High Contrast that is used in a compensating developer.<br>

Old Kodak Technical Pan is one as are some other films on the market. BUT you had to expose them at a slow speed then use a soft developer with them.<br>

CAN OF WORMS........ :)</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>My experience with vintage Panatomic-X shows TMAX 100 to have obviously finer grain.<br>

Of course, Technical Pan, microfilms, and the like (Rollei ATP1.1) win on fine grain.<br>

Grain is not the only figure of merit. While Verichrome Pan had fine grain, it didn't have high acutance -- not that sharp.<br>

Also, the HD curve, which controls the tonality, is important. So is spectral sensitivity.<br>

There's no one "figure of merit".</p>

[leicaglow]

<p>Fine grain and acutance are different issues. One of the sharpest films you can get is Delta 100. If you're worried that much about grain, you should consider buying a medium or large format camera.</p>

[brian_hirschfeld]

<p>ok, say I'm using 120 in a H3d w/ film back, what would be the least grainy (smoothest) film/developer combo I could get?</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>That is easy TMX and Xtol but it won't be sharp. :) Then again you could use EFKE 25 in Rodinal and it will be sharp but have a little more grain.... Then again you can use Rollei 80S in Diafine at ISO 125 and have the best of both world.. Then again You can ....................... Still a can of worms.</p>

[david_littleboy__tokyo__ja]

<p>I'd start out with TMX100 in an undiluted developer (D76, a Microdol-X equivalent, or maybe XTOL). It scans (Nikon 8000/9000) amazingly well. You'll probably find it so good that you'll feel like trying it in a diluted or other high-accutance developer. (Truth in advertising: I've only used it with local lab development. When asked what developer they used, they got all defensive (misunderstanding my intent (it wasn't my Japanese, people misunderstand me in English all the time, too)), stuck their noses up in the air and said "We only use Kodak chemicals". Sheesh. I was being happy with what you were doing, guys.)</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Well being 20 a wondering person for 50+ years I understand that as My accent is all over the map and my vernacular is not of any area I live in. Though I am getting pretty good at redneck these days. :)</p>

[teneson]

<p>Adox CMS 20 (35mm) is very fine-grain; kind of resembles the extinct Kodak Tech Pan 25.<br>

Ilford Pan F in D-76 is nice. </p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Mark it is a Microfilm just as the Rollei TP1.1 is. How do you process it in D-76?<br>

I have used modified Diafine development and Rodinal 1-300 with it.</p>

[patrick_mont]

<p>I love Kodak's Plus-X for a traditional fairly low grain film. I highly recommend it! It must be developed longer than the published time on th D-76 wrapper for best results.</p>

[a._t._burke]

<p>Mr. Hirschfeld... <br>

<br />You may want to consider adding Bluefire Police film developed with its own HR developer to the list. The frugal Photographer has a kit with several rolls and developer if you want to try it out. Only comes in 35mm. I'd like to try some more but in my Mamiya 7 II as it is my only medium format camera with lenses good enough to show a difference. One source is:<br>

<br /><a href="http://www.frugalphotographer.com/catBluefire.htm">http://www.frugalphotographer.com/catBluefire.htm</a> <br>

<br />A. T. Burke</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>Bluefire is now sold by Rollei under another name..... Guess what one it is and it is pretty close to this film... OOPS that is another hint I can't tell. And they do make it in 120. Still have trouble?</p>

[mark f]

<p>If you get a chance, pick a copy of Barry Thornton's old book. He talks about the tradeoff of fine grain and apparent sharpness. I tend to agree with him and I find that the best tradeoff for me on 6x6 is Acros in Rodinal. I suspect I'd like it in Xtol also....probably finer grain and a bit less sharp. Pan F, Delta 100, TMX and Acros will all give very fine grain developed properly, but they all look different. The difference in developing is probably the biggest difference between them in terms of grain. If you underexpose and under develop, the grain will be smaller yet!</p>

[larrydressler]

<p>B&W is Human Color is a machine.</p>

[justin_stott]

<blockquote>

<p>I'd start out with TMX100 in an undiluted developer (D76</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Grade school stuff, and amazing, that's why so many of us (well at least me) started out (,and I for one, return) there!</p>

[StuartMoxham]

<p>I like TMX100 in D76 1:1. Still nice fine grain but nice and sharp too.</p>

[Aoresteen]

<p>Well, I am a big fan of Agfa Pan 25 in (drum roll.....) HC-110 B. When Agfa announced that they had discontinued Agfa Pan 25 I bought every roll I could find in 120 and 35mm. I'm down to a couple of cans of 35mm bulk. Once it is gone I guess I will switch to EFKE 25.</p>

[mauro_franic]

<p>Tmax and Xtol 1:1. No visible grain on 20x30 prints from 35mm. As Larry said, if you shoot 120, grain is not worth discussing.</p>

[dandreisbach]

<p>I'm partial to Acros souped in either HC-110 Dilution D or Pyrocat-HD semi-stand. T-Max is also good but just doesn't look quite right to me. There are so many developer combinations what will yield different results. Find what film/developer combo works best for you and stick with it. </p>

[bgelfand]

<p>One of the best fine grain fillm, Kodak Technical Pan, is no longer available.</p>

<p>Of the readily available films, I find Ilford Pan F+ is a good fine grain film and develops nicely in both Rodinal (Examples: <a href="../photo/3712100">http://www.photo.net/photo/3712100</a><br>

<a href="../photo/3712092">http://www.photo.net/photo/3712092</a></p>

<p> and DD-X (an Example: <a href="../photo/1421752">http://www.photo.net/photo/1421752</a> )</p>

<p>All the examples are highly cropped 8x10 prints. If you scroll down the critique section of the DD-X example, you will see the full negative.</p>

<p> </p>

[leicaglow]

<p>Let's consider why we ask about fine grain (particularly when we are new at photography--I'm not implying Brian is new). I know this because it was my own quest when I started out photographing in grade, middle, and high school.</p>

<p>Our quest starts because we see others work that exhibit a nice sharpness and beautiful tonal range, and think "If only I could get find out what the finest grained film is."</p>

<p>Years later, you will inevitably discover (if you stick with photography long enough, and are lucky to find friends and colleagues who shoot with good lenses) the issue wasn't fine grained film. It was the cheap (often kit) lenses you've been using were not up to the task of producing the kind of image you wanted.</p>

<p>Even if you use Panatomic-X in Microdol, you'll still get images that are not to your liking. Yes, you will have fine grained images, but they won't have the look you want. If you get great lenses (the best Nikon, the best Canon, Leica, Hasselblad, Zeiss, etc.), then you will find that, alas, grain was not your problem. Instead of spending $1000 for a great lens when you started, you instead spent thousands of dollars in film and developer combinations, and wasted years producing mediocre images. Meanwhile, the guy/gal who happened upon their grandfather's Leica or Hasselblad, produced magnificent images in the first few weeks, and were totally oblivious to the issue of film grain.</p>

<p>All this is not to dissuade you from your quest, but rather cut to the chase and suggest that you may not be concerned about film grain after all.</p>

<p> </p>

[david_littleboy__tokyo__ja]

<p>Real helpful response to some shooting a 'blad...</p>

[User_502260]

<p>Based on what I have on hand I would use Kodak Imagelink HQ which was spooled into 120 size. I would develop it in Ilford Microphen diluted 1:5. The EI would be 25 and the developing time at 68F would be about 14 minutes. My next choice would be Fuji ACROS at 100 in undiluted Fuji Microfine. The third choice would be Ilford Pan F+ at 50 developed in Ilford Perceptol or Kodak Microdol-X diluted 1:3. If it were available new and not just frozen in my film freezer I would prefer Kodak Panatomic-X or Agfa APX 25. The Roeeli ATP film is available in 120 so if you really need grain that fine, try that first. </p>