The ongoing mystery: how long will 35mm film be available?

Discussion in 'Film and Processing' started by s._usary, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. I realize this question has been asked repeatedly over the last several years, but opinions seem to change by the month and I haven't checked this out in a good while. What are current, informed opinions or facts as to how long 35mm reversal/slide film will be available? I have a mint Nikon F100 as well as a Nikon P7000 as my digital, so I would like for obvious reasons to think that E-6 emulsions will be available for the F100 for years to come. Thanks for any responses, Shane Usary.
     
  2. You need to stop worrying about it. Anyone who says that they know is either delusional, lying, or has an overly inflated self of self worth. We can all guess, but that's all it is...a guess. The major companies will deny that they will discontinue a product until the day they announce it, so I just use my film until I can't get it anymore. Once I can't get it anymore, I will adapt.
     
  3. The date was actually noted many centuries ago, and it is: December 21, 2012.
     
  4. Well since Kodak's venture in China failed, and the chinese bypassed large-scale use of film technology.....
    And since Hollywood and Bollywood and Hollyweird as well is moving whole-scale to digital media at this very moment (even full featured movies now shot with Canon Digital SLR's as I understand), the movie undustry demand for kilometres of film have vanished.
    This has been a backbone for amateur film for many years and was the sole source for 35mm film at the very beginning.
    Now as this market vanishes, we better prepare for film to go the way the dinosaurs went, or pay premium prices for the privilege!
    Unbelieveable? Not really I have several friends that worked as radio officers in our merchant navy, and made a good living. Today there are nearly no "sparks" anymore, and everyone and his grandmother expect to use their cellular phone in the middle of the ocean, a phone btw that also doubles as a radio, TV-set, walkman AND a camera!
     
  5. On a small scale, B&W film has been, and can again be a cottage industry. As long as there is some demand, I think it will be made somewhere in the world. Color film is something else entirely.
     
  6. I used to worry about this but now I just dont for the following reasons, If the many manufacturers of film keep packing in, there will one day be only one or two left. Those one or two companies will have so much work on keeping up with demand making the entire film needs for the whole planet I am fairly sure they would be making nore money than ever they are now.
    I understand one can still buy oil paints, parchment, fountain pens and vinyl records. Even now, with the advent of photography, paper, ball point pens and cds.
    My mate uses 4 star petrol (very leaded) in one of his bikes, I use monograde non synthetic oil in mine. No problem getting either.
    Of course, as we all know, the best way to keep film in production is buy some of it.
     
  7. Kodak made glass plates until at least 1999 (B&H listed Tmax 100 4x5 plates), and you can still get them through some European manufacturers. Kodak or Fuji might stop making film (or sell off their film divisions), but I feel comfortable saying that film will be available for the rest of your lifetime at least, through Ilford, Ferrania, Agfa, Maco, etc.
     
  8. This is a non thread. Just shoot film and enjoy.
     
  9. There are no facts, just opinions.
    And since Hollywood and Bollywood and Hollyweird as well is moving whole-scale to digital media at this very moment (even full featured movies now shot with Canon Digital SLR's as I understand), the movie undustry demand for kilometres of film have vanished.​
    I don't think so. A few big name directors have stated that they will not use digital capture and in any case, it's not the initial shooting that uses lots of film, it's the copies made for distribution.
    The Red camera is the digital movie camera of choice for some, not a Canon DSLR.
     
  10. On a small scale, B&W film has been, and can again be a cottage industry. As long as there is some demand, I think it will be made somewhere in the world.​
    Luis G has it.
    Just as already today, former Second World producers, especially, will continue to make film so long as there is even a niche market for it. They can survive without the economies of scale necessary for the larger, still-going producers.
     
  11. Ilford is not dependent on the movie industry for scale. Kodak very definitely is. Fuji is to some degree as well.
    Every 3-D movie is another movie with no release prints. That's pummeling Kodak's volume. The ECN negative film for a movie is maybe one master roll. The ECP release prints for one film are many master rolls, many times more than the camera film. Master rolls only make about 50 4000 foot reels of film, a print is several of those reels.
    I suspect the next "major event" will be the end of E-6 film from Kodak. They'll probably punt before Fuji, since Fuji has the market share lead there. But the continuing demise of E-6 labs will eventually force Fuji's hand.
    I have no idea if Ilford could start making color film if Kodak and Fuji pack it in. (They are providing emulsions for Impossible Project.)
     
  12. Sounds as if the consensus is that I had better sell my F100 before it becomes virtually valueless. Hell of it is, I bought it new a year ago.
     
  13. I will shoot film until it is all gone then quit.
     
  14. I use transparency film almost exclusively, and I say don't sell off the F100.
    There will be E-6 for at least a while yet, Shane. You will not recover the value of your F100 now; you have already suffered the greatest depreciation. The F100 will not lose much more value in years to come, as B+W will be available for many years, probably color negative as well, and an F100 in good condition will continue to be desirable.
    E-6 is consolidating, as is C-41, and for Kodak, B+W. I don't expect E100G to disappear anytime soon (so long as Kodak survives), and expect Fuji to be making E-6 longer yet.
    All you can do is use it while ya got it and whatever happens in the future, happens.
     
  15. My F100 was $70.00 U.S. a year ago.
     
  16. My crystal ball says that you will be able to buy new 35mm film long after they've quit making "SD" cards. Granted, I've got a pretty cheap crystal ball, but it could be right!
     
  17. My crystal ball shows a photographer in the future shooting film.
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Gratz on your aquisition. The F100 is a great camera. You better go and buy another before it runs out, so you can use with 2 different kind of film. And just go out and shoot! Stop worring about nonsense things. I'm sure the world will run out of Oil before film! Fuji produced more film last year then in the last decades.
     
  19. Les I agree with you as I have found that like the picture above... Shot on old Neopan SS and in Acufine you just can't get "The Look" of film unless you shoot film.
    When was Technical pan discontinued? I still have a few 100 rolls. :)
     
  20. Alas no but I have played with the new Rollei 120 TP 1.1 and I have to say it is worth a try. Oh also when did they Discontinue APX25? I have some of that too. I love my film freezer. :)
     
  21. Jim Gardner - If the many manufacturers of film keep packing in, there will one day be only one or two left.​
    Since the OP was talking E6 transparency film, you pretty much described the situation today.
    Those one or two companies will have so much work on keeping up with demand making the entire film needs for the whole planet I am fairly sure they would be making nore money than ever they are now.​
    And yet, they aren't.
    I understand one can still buy oil paints, parchment, fountain pens and vinyl records​
    None of those are E6 film and chemistry. I have made oil paints before. It's a cottage industry. I know someone who has a record press in his basement. I've coated alternative process papers in my own shop. Cottage industries. How much machinery do you think ti takes to make a pen nib? There's people on the APUG forum making their own B&W emulsions and coating clear plastic film. More cottage industries.
    Color reversal film is a lot different. Get a B&W print film 10% too sensitive, and the odds are, no one will notice. If they do notice, mark the film speed different, or tweak the development times. (Kodak has changed the development times of TMAX at least 4 times). But get the cyan layer of a color slide film 10% too sensitive, and you've got a film that makes all your people bright red. Picture the Foma or Efke color slide film with a different recommended filter pack each time you order. "Gel this roll 30M", "Gel this roll 20Y". Eeeep!
     
  22. 3 manufactures of E6 film one in North America one in Europe and one in Asia. And no the one in Europe is not just re cutting old master rolls left over from someone else.
     
  23. I will shoot film until it is all gone then quit.​
    That's about how I look at it too, Larry. I've no inclination whatsoever to jump through the digital photo hoops.
    Sometimes, I think that all of this paying attention to "consensus", as Mr. Usary refers to it, is a meaningful part of the potential problem; potentially a self-fulfilling prophecy; monkey-see-monkey do, follow the crowd... But I suppose it is a legitimate concern, and one that we all may worry about to a certain degree. However, in my travels, though admittedly limited, I was under the impression that in the last two years or so, film photography seemed, if anything, becoming more popular, not less. I do know that many people expressed a positive interest in it when they realized I was shooting film (exclusively) on newspaper assignments for our local weekly. I remember a recent individual expressing nostalgia for the days when she didn't have to fuss with computer software just to get some good pictures. And I know that the quality was high, as evidenced by my editor's opinion, comments from other photographers, as well as recent and present exhibitions of prints made from music oriented assignments.
    I cannot help but think that many people would be so much better served if they had kept their film cameras, along with their good lenses, concentrated on craft, and had their film developed and burned to cd. They could then have selective prints made from a roll, if desired, and the cd would give them images plenty good enough for emailing and web usage. I was quite happily surprised a few months ago when I didn't have time for scanning a specific job on my Coolscan IV, went to our local drug store (national chain) and requested this product. Cost: around seven dollars for a 36-exp roll, and it included an index print. Images were way more than adequate for newspaper publication, and the service is available same-day, 7 days a week. Wouldn't that suit many amateurs and serious amateurs better than what so many have invested so much money, time, and effort in, often to produce the same result? And if one's interest goes beyond this, a quality personal film scanner could really open up the options. And I know someone will point out the time needed for scanning, but my answer is that it's simply not that bad unless you need to do volumes. And for most people, how many images are really worth a high resolution scan? I think if we're honest and the goal is a nice print, perhaps a handful at most, per roll? And if one is lucky enough to have a Coolscan 9000, or maybe the 8000, up to 12 images at a time can be scanned, and the time involved becomes even less of an issue. But of course the sellers of digital cameras stopped selling scanners so they can sell more digital cameras to the "informed" consumer.
    I am thrilled with current Kodak films, E100g, definitely included. Tried substituting negative films this fall for color nature work, and they're simply not in the same class, qualitatively. For people, and anything inside though, the modern negative films are very amazing.
     
  24. Usary-san, as others pointed out, all we can do is "guess". But since my guessing includes technology forecasting experience, and since I did a report on this not too long ago, 6 more years. The last E6 should be about 2017. However, the big problem is going to be finding processing, unless you want to run it at home. In about 4 years, we're going to hit a point where you have pretty much one lab, per continent, running it.
    Steve Smith - in any case, it's not the initial shooting that uses lots of film, it's the copies made for distribution.​
    True.
    Screen Digest says that, worldwide, we hit 36,242 screens in 2010. They project 100% of the world's screens will be digital by 2016, but the highest volume screens have already been converted, and that accounts for almost half the distribution media.
    Can't happen soon enough for me. I saw "An Education" last year, on film. It was a smaller run "art film", the AMC 20 still has a couple of film capable projectors for that kind of stuff. I've been dealing with film jitter at movies for most of my life, as well as dirt and scratches, but the last couple of years of digital has spoiled me. Having the movie on film basically ruined it for me, I'd forgotten how really bad it looked.
    Larry Dressler - When was Technical pan discontinued?​
    I thought it was 2004.

    I still have a few 100 rolls. :)
    Whacha' gonna' develop it in, Larry?
     
  25. Slide film will last 6 more years, C41 will last 27more years and B/W film will last forever. I asked my cat and she told me. I have a smart cat. She also said that buying a new F100 a year ago and selling it now would result in the loss of most of your funds.
     
  26. "The date was actually noted many centuries ago, and it is: December 21, 2012."​
    Well, some of the film I've bought has an expiration date beyond Dec. 2012.
    Seriously, Kodak will probably leave the film market first. They've already shown their lack of commitment. Maybe Fuji next. I think Ilford will be the major film manufacturer that stays with film the longest. I believe the smaller manufacturers will continue of offer film as long as there's a demand. But, the only way Kodak would make a comeback is if enough serious (and wealthy) photographers bought them out and started making whatever kind of film they want. Hey, if I ever become a billionaire, Kodak will be my first purchase.
     
  27. Oh that is easy I have a case of acufine and replenisher I can make Coffee developer and I have even developed film in my own urine so that is no problem. I have 1/2 a case of DK50 in cans and I have Diafine in cans. I am 52 I figure They and my Rodinol will all out live me. As for color I am learning to use Hair dye to develop in. Fixer I have a pool supply store and I have used Kosher sea salt.
     
  28. I love photography myself. Film or digital is less important. The picture is the thing (although I do really like nifty old mechanical cameras too)
    I don't know about Larry, but personally I prefer Kona coffee developer (much smoother) and the urine of a young virgin.
     
  29. LOL Harsh Mexican instant coffee and that of a drunk works best. same as for making gun powder. Look it up JDM.
     
  30. :=) Chimp smile.
     
  31. "35mm film" (including the mystery meat in disposables that the consumer has absolutely no idea what size it is) will disappear from general consumer applications before larger roll and sheet films for the devout specialists. Mostly because the consumer that supports the manufacturing volume neither knows nor cares about film size nor do they seem to believe or need to believe the faintly echoing cries from those who still carry the flickering torch that film is better than digital. They just need something that will take a picture when they want it to.
    What should, it seems to me, to be scary is that the (consumer/affordable) scanners which many of us might need to finally scan all of those boxes of Kodachrome may disappear before before the new film does.
     
  32. Be hard core or die. Those one shot cameras are the cameras keeping many films alive. How do I know that I get the empties to reload bulk film. I get them from the minilabs around town and 70% of the cassettes are from one shot cameras.
     
  33. So if you have a mint F100 then just use it till there is no more film. Why worry, unless your really trying to find out if you could sell it.
     
  34. Less and Larry, Agreed!:)
     
  35. Copies made for distribution.....
    Exactly! Last week celebrated the transfer to non-analog moviehalls for the entire country over here.
    The last showroom dismounted its old equipment last week, now moveis are ditributed digitally ALL across the country. make sure all will follow suit, and pretty soon all movies will be distributed across the net, universally.
    You make tha same mistake tha Kodak did with China, the transfer will be far quicker than anyone thought. Just look at here, at the time James Bond and Dr. No came out, the movie wasn't distributed over here until 1,5 years after the fact.
    Nowadays they are no longer talking about premiere showing in the capatal, like thye used to, movies will be distributed all across the country at the same night, at the same time in all showrooms.
    And not even ONE copi made.
    I'm not looking forward to this of course, but its coming FAST.
     
  36. Copies made for distribution.....
    Exactly! Last week celebrated the transfer to non-analog moviehalls for the entire country over here.
    The last showroom dismounted its old equipment last week, now moveis are ditributed digitally ALL across the country. make sure all will follow suit, and pretty soon all movies will be distributed across the net, universally.
    You make tha same mistake tha Kodak did with China, the transfer will be far quicker than anyone thought. Just look at here, at the time James Bond and Dr. No came out, the movie wasn't distributed over here until 1,5 years after the fact.
    Nowadays they are no longer talking about premiere showing in the capatal, like thye used to, movies will be distributed all across the country at the same night, at the same time in all showrooms.
    And not even ONE copy made.
    I'm not looking forward to this of course, but its coming FAST.
     
  37. Well I say agree or change. I for one only change my developers my cameras and film. LOL
    The thing is I love film and I may go overboard to use and keep it alive. I do have a digital camera it cost me $50 at a 2nd hand store and uses a USB cable. I would rather screw up a roll of film in a old Rolleicord I payed $70.00 than shoot anything I care about on a digital camera. :)
    I develop my own B&W and I have done Color back to E3. and C22. I remember holding it up to the light and then redeveloping. I truly think my being a Mule in this is because I do my own film.
     
  38. This question comes up all the time. Anyone who says they know when film will be discontinued are basing their answer on rumor or speculation. Those who would know are under a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) and couldn't tell you even if they did. Nothing can be gained by speculation or rumor so I'm closing this thread now................... oh wait,...different thread. Carry on.
     
  39. Bill I am a Mod in another place and I love to watch them die out and show up again. I think though after this one I have stated all I can other than that I did use Urine and coffee together to get finer grain. :)
     
  40. I have no idea if Ilford could start making color film if Kodak and Fuji pack it in.​
    That would be resuming production of colour film as they used to make it many years ago.
     
  41. Or just taking over the machines at the Kodak Park. Why up and move them just use them and rent the building if buying it is not good for the laws and taxes.
     
  42. Do you guys have an idea of how many film producers there are on the market, producing different types of film?
    • Adox
    • EFKE
    • Foma
    • Forte
    • Fuji
    • Ilford
    • Kodak
    • Maco
    • Rollei
    • ...
    The offer of different types is still very broad, even if there is some consolidation: Kodak issued new Portra, discontinuing Portra NC and VC, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
    There are at least 20 different types of different film in different ISO 50, 100, 125, 200, 400, 800, 3200, in different formats: 120, 135, sheet.
    Not enough?
    Some years ago Kodak's CEO officially said that film was going to be available for many decades.
    Why worry?
    There are enough on-line shops to get it and some real shops, too.
    Just go on using it!
     
  43. OK, somebody tell me if this sounds like it's correct. Last year, at a reception, I met a woman who is an experienced but obscure independent film maker. (I won't quote her by name, but nobody would have heard of her anyway. I hadn't prior to this meeting.) We got to talking about media, and if I remember right, she said that her work had indeed gone digital, and she'd done her last couple of films with a Red camera.
    She went on to say that despite that, she believed film would be around for a long time. Her reasoning was that film is the gold standard as an archival material, so it will stay in production. I was surprised at that, but she seemed to know what she was talking about. I didn't get a chance to pump her for details.
    Can anyone here who works in cinematography corroborate this? Or was she all wet?
     
  44. I sure don't know how any of this is going to turn out but by the time I got to the last comment I had pulled up my pants cuffs about as high as they can go.
     
  45. I believe that the film will be available for some time to come. Although many will be shooting digital there will be a niche of people that will still use film.
     
  46. Here is my prediction:
    - Consumer digital P&S digital cameras will shrink or disappear before film. This market is driven by convenience with no regard to quality (or they would be using a compact 35mm film) so they will soon prefer phones to a digital P&S.
    - Memory cards: SmartMedia, XD, Memory Stick, MMC, you name it... have died over the last decade very quickly. SD is only natural to follow.
    - Memory card readers: die soon after the cards.
    So here is the punch line:
    - You are better off stocking up on card readers than on film so your children and gran children can retrieve them.
    - Unless, you transfer the files to your computer; in which case you don't have to worry since they will certainly be lost by the time your grand children pick an interest.
     
  47. Your F100.
    Email me directly and I will offer to buy it from you with memory cards for you digital camera.
     
  48. I like Michael Alex the statement the most;
    "The date was actually noted many centuries ago, and it is: December 21, 2012."
    Using Velvia and Sensia, I'm not wary about it.
     
  49. Agree with Mauro to a point but have to say I am "the" only person I have seen in the last year using a film camera. That alone tells me there will be (already is) a limited nitch market for film where one or two companies manufacturing film survive. Camera phones are already replacing the point and shoots and cool little cameras like the new Olympus XZ-1 are aimed at small market above the average user.
    One thing bothers me though. In a few years when Nikon no longer supports repair on cameras like the F5 and F100 who is going to fix it? Sure it's still easy to get mechanical cameras repaired. But these electronic cameras could become bookends I'm afraid..
     
  50. Personally, I think we will run out of 35mm cameras in working order, before we run out of film. Or, on a more immediate worry, film scanners, as Craig mentioned. In five years time, when my current Canoscan 8800F is either dead, or without drivers available for whatever OS I will be using at that time, will there be affordable film scanners available?
     
  51. This is a fascinating thread. What puzzles me is why so few people point out what I consider to be the only remaining glaring weakness of digital--highlight gradation. Once they have that figured out and can truly imitate the curve and latitude of 35 mm color print film, why do I want to use film? For the tactile experience? OK, I get that. If you just plain love it--especially souping it and tweaking chemicals, making "real" prints in silver--I definitely get that. But to say that digital cannot and will not ever equal film in the final print quality, I think that's hogwash. Digital is phenomenal and post processing makes so many looks possible at the click of a mouse it's a boon to creativity. Add to that the incomparable ability to shoot high ISO, different ISO in an instant, color or b & w in an instant...come on--I love film but digital simply offers too many advantages. That said, I don't see any reason why film can't remain a cottage industry because lots of people DO love it. But in terms of actual visual quality, it's hard to justify 35 mm film. Large format is something else entirely. I have no doubt there will be large format films till the end of time.
     
  52. It's funny that such a post based on a absurd rumor keeps going and going... Just wanted to add some interesting (think so) facts to this. I'm quite sure that behind these rumors are big digital cameras manufactures, trying to grab the remaining market (like the "undecided" voters, who haven't choose Nikon or Canon yet! :) Anyway, dont believe at all that Fuji, or even Kodak will stop production. Fuji invested in the film department last year, and it's going to send to market next month a new film MF camera - the GF670W Professional -wich mean also good news for MF film; and Kodak, Kodak has announced last week that Kodak Professional Portra 160 will be released starting in March 2011 in: 35mm, 120/ 220, 4×5 and 8×10. About scanners, Reflecta is going to send to market in June, a new dedicated film scanner, the MF 5000. So, has you can see, the film market is still moving... despite the digital barks :)
     
  53. James G. Dainis

    James G. Dainis Moderator

    From the quatrains (I forget which one) of Nostradamus -

    "In the second decade of the second millennium the yellow father of the west will abandon all. Help beguiled through conversion."

    You saw it here first.
     
  54. "35mm film" (including the mystery meat in disposables that the consumer has absolutely no idea what size it is) will disappear from general consumer applications before larger roll and sheet films for the devout specialists. Mostly because the consumer that supports the manufacturing volume neither knows nor cares about film size nor do they seem to believe or need to believe the faintly echoing cries from those who still carry the flickering torch that film is better than digital. They just need something that will take a picture when they want it to.​
    However, the "general consumer" of 35mm film stock isn't photographers, it motion pictures. One feature length film uses more 35mm film stock than I have in my entire lifetime, easily. Unless the film uses 70mm or some other film stock.
    Yes, many film makers are going digital (and sometimes, especially for commercials or very independent films, they do use DSLRs because they are so cheap), but many are staying with film because they feel digital sucks in comparison. If every theatre goes digital, however, that will suck.
    - Consumer digital P&S digital cameras will shrink or disappear before film. This market is driven by convenience with no regard to quality (or they would be using a compact 35mm film) so they will soon prefer phones to a digital P&S.​
    Too late. The digital P&S market is already drying up because everyone prefers their phones. Why use a P&S when your new phone has a 8MP camera in it! Never mind that the lens is smaller than half a dime and the sensor can basically fit on a pin head, it's full of marketing-goodness-8MP!
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/04/technology/04camera.html
    P&S are down 24% since 08 (DSLRs are up 29% since 09). The "most used" camera on Flickr is an iphone...
     
  55. It's funny that such a post based on a absurd rumor keeps going and going.​
    It's even funnier that no one mentioned any rumor, at all.
     
  56. Sure, film might be available, but what about chemicals and labs? If there's a small market for film, there's probably an even smaller market for chemicals to develop it at home.
     
  57. Personally, I think we will run out of 35mm cameras in working order, before we run out of film.​
    You might. I have enough for several lifetimes!
     
  58. ...But in terms of actual visual quality, it's hard to justify 35 mm film...​
    Harry, your opinion. Many of us who use it competently may disagree, and I think 35mm is often unfairly maligned in general on these forums. In the real world, in most situations I am interested in and encounter, I beg to differ that it cannot produce "visual quality". I am working on framing a print right now made from current Kodak negative film, that at 12" by 18" is very sharp where it should be, and has excellent tonalities. Of course it was made with a good lens and with good technique. It certainly does not seem to be lacking technical quality at that size, at least none that any discerning, experienced, normal individual would see.
    Sure, in extreme low light, digital's high iso abilities (and flexibility) can make a meaningful difference, but depending on how often one photographs in that light, this can be a minor advantage. I would like to see Kodak come out with a 1000 or higher iso color negative film; having that would negate any real world disadvantage that film may now have for me, as compared with digital. All else, for me, argues for film.
    Fuji invested in the film department last year, and it's going to send to market next month a new film MF camera - the GF670W Professional -wich mean also good news for MF film; and Kodak, Kodak has announced last week that Kodak Professional Portra 160 will be released starting in March 2011 in: 35mm, 120/ 220, 4×5 and 8×10. About scanners, Reflecta is going to send to market in June, a new dedicated film scanner, the MF 5000. So, has you can see, the film market is still moving... despite the digital barks :)
    Right on, Nuno:)!
     
  59. ... One thing bothers me though. In a few years when Nikon no longer supports repair on cameras like the F5 and F100 who is going to fix it? Sure it's still easy to get mechanical cameras repaired. But these electronic cameras could become bookends I'm afraid..​
    Michael, No offense, but that sounds like a red herring. I suppose this could be a problem, but I know a repairman that is only in his forties, very experienced, and can fix them. Sure, I suppose parts could be an issue if Nikon's determined not to supply them. But how often do they really break? I have a much "cheaper" early 90's Nikon "amateur" body that is used regularly, and has never had a problem. They are so inexpensive, that I have two more, one I bought about two years ago, new, and in its original box for $50.
     
  60. Hi Jeff, glad for your insight. I am still curious, though, other than the annoying tendency of digital to blow out the highlights with the slightest overexposure, how is a final image from a top-notch full-frame DSLR inferior to one from a 35 mm negative? Don't get me wrong, I hope for the sake of film users that film is around for a long time. I miss souping my b & w film. I just doubt the image quality advantage of 35 mm over full-frame DSLR's. Even as far as pleasing grain, there's enough sophisticated software out now that, at normal viewing distances at least, a skillfully processed digital image can emulate film quite nicely. I guess I'm just looking for an education on this because I honestly can't see it in the final images. There's no doubt that on a microscopic level, they're just not the same, but how does that translate to the paper/screen at normal viewing distance? Thanks for any additional insight.
     
  61. Nice to see Herr Weinberg appear here again; are you the retired professor from the Plains? I think we have exchanged barbs here before, when I travelled here under a different moniker (an immoderate moderator kicked me off here for making snide remarks about another moderator who was an extreme photographic cyberhead). Anyway, I love your comment. As for the remainder, I'm going to keep my aged but still Ex+++ N90 and slap the old 50 on it for times when I want to use film (mostly Ilford HP-5, I imagine), sell the F100, and purchase a new digital body w/some DX/FX lenses. I feel that I am just bowing to the inevitable. Ah, the vicissitudes of fate in the marketplace. Well, at least no more buying film and paying rising costs for processing E6 (I send it currently to some lab that will provide plastic mounts). I have three slide projectors, of which one is a classic Leitz Pradolux RT-300 (the one that used the Kodak Carousel trays, built by Singer, I think). I suspect I'll market it. Any of you film enthusiasts still project slides? If so, I'll make you a nice deal on the Pradolux. LN- condition with the original Leitz luggage-style case and its metal clasp locks. Thanks for the many informative responses. Yours, Shane Usary.
     
  62. Hi Jeff, thanks, nice to see you again. I've been thinking today about that celllphone cameras, and I think it's an interesting subject for discussion, even for a Wedsday Pic, or Friday or whatever. Acctually I use more often my mobile camera then any other (digital or film). Anyone knows how to start a new Forum?
     
  63. ... I am still curious, though, other than the annoying tendency of digital to blow out the highlights with the slightest overexposure, how is a final image from a top-notch full-frame DSLR inferior to one from a 35 mm negative? Don't get me wrong, I hope for the sake of film users that film is around for a long time. I miss souping my b & w film. I just doubt the image quality advantage of 35 mm over full-frame DSLR's. Even as far as pleasing grain, there's enough sophisticated software out now that, at normal viewing distances at least, a skillfully processed digital image can emulate film quite nicely. I guess I'm just looking for an education on this because I honestly can't see it in the final images...​
    Harry, I wouldn't say that the "final image from a top-notch full-frame DSLR" would be "inferior". That would be a subjective opinion, unless we're talking about those very low light situations without flash, perhaps. For me though, digital capture seems to often look "clinical" under that sort of lighting, but again, perhaps that's subjective.
    ...There's no doubt that on a microscopic level, they're just not the same, but how does that translate to the paper/screen at normal viewing distance? Thanks for any additional insight.​
    Film translates quite beautifully to the paper at normal viewing distances. If you choose not to believe this, visit any major museum containing prints by the greats of the 20th century.
    I think what you're so concerned about touches upon the underlying issue of so many. That is, a preoccupation with owning the latest, greatest technology, and the belief that doing so will positively, absolutely confer advantage onto the owner. I believe that we need only a certain level of photographic equipment, and that progress is achieved by dedication, passion, and experience. I'm very suspect of those who stress technology and equipment so much... I don't want to see film go away because of this keep-up-with-the-Jones mentality, although I'm sure that much of the industry profits by seeking to marginalize film photography. I have a quality scanner, and I think that this gives me the best of both worlds. Without going into all of the myriad reasons that I prefer film photography, as so many of us have stated them over and over previously, a very succinct answer is, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". And of course, film technology continues to improve, as evidenced by Kodak's new refinements. Hope that helps.
     
  64. ... I feel that I am just bowing to the inevitable...​
    That's a sad, man. Hope you re-think it! I'm scared of those DX/FX things. 'Specially in a dark concert!
    Hi Nuno, Sounds like you should talk to Josh Root about that new cell forum:)!
     
  65. You are da man, Les!!
     
  66. Just what I used Yesterday. :)
    [​IMG]
     
  67. Ilford HP5 & Ektar 100 should keep my F5 fed for decades to come!
     
  68. I don't think so. A few big name directors have stated that they will not use digital capture and in any case, it's not the initial shooting that uses lots of film, it's the copies made for distribution.
    A "few" big name directors cannot support the film industry. And every local theater I can think of has moved to digital projection. I don't know what the stats are for the industry as a whole, but I can't imagine film projection lasting much longer due to the distribution costs and the push for 3D.
    I'm not sure how the film industry will shake out after movie production completes its transition to digital, but it certainly won't be the same as it is today.
     
  69. The digital P&S market is already drying up​
    Maybe so, but the local drug store is now offering disposable digital P&S cameras. Just bring it back to the store for a CD and prints.
    Edit: I said offering, please note. I have no idea if they are selling or not.
     
  70. I think film manufactures like Kodak & Fuji will stop making 35mm rolls. Because this segment is mostly amateur users. Now they (amateur) start using DSLR or Good P&S cameras and are happy with that. Kodak & Fuji will keep producing 120 & 4x5 format films. So, get one 120 SLR film camera now !
     
  71. I worry about the film thing all the time. I do worry about the camera's getting older also. Every day some of them hit the trash can someplace.
     
  72. I don't worry about it much.
    [​IMG]
     
  73. In the USA the largest cinema company is Regal with 6775 screens. They will be all digital by 2014.
    The second largest is AMC with 5000 screens. They will be all digital by 2012.
    The third largest is Cinemark with 4900 screens. They do not give a date but say there are making a continued transition to digital.
    Personally I am not worried. I figure there will always be B&W. At any rate I am more interested in photography as a whole and not so enamored with media types.
     
  74. If they had perhaps developed means for photo processing machines at one hour labs in useing films for making high resolution positive or negative copies of digital images on film strips, as a means of additional backup of treasured images, I think films would have sustained a better market. While the technology is available today to have digitally images copied into Ektachrome slides, to my knowledge it's fairly expensive and not broadly available. I'm not sure if one can have their digital images copied onto print films in the form of negatives, but I imagine it is done. Inkjet prints alone, while today more archival and lightfast, likely could not be used for making a high resolution copy of the images printed on them, should somehow the original digtal file of the image had become lost or unreadable.

    If Kodak were to offer such services through their Easy Share Gallery alone that was more affordable and easily available, I for one would have nearly a decades worth of digital images that I would want to duplicate into negatives or slides. I imagine many magazines and government agencies would also seek to have a decades worth of digital images stored on disk duplicated on film for archival backup. With what so many spend in money and effort in capturing their images, I imagine most digital photographers would want to have some of their best and most prized digital images duplicated on film rather than to soley rely on a disk or flash card for which their stored images are not tangible to be viewed with the eye alone.

    Some might be surprised to know that the Library of Congress today still uses analog reel-to-reel tape for making archival copies of audio works which are being entered and cataloged into the library. By their standards, digital means of recording and by which means it can be played, is ever changing and not a reliable means over the long term. Not without routinely transferring the data onto the newer and adapted means within a decades time.
     
  75. The last Super-8 movie camera rolled off it's assembly line 25 years ago. As of 5:00 AM today B&H carries 4 types of Super-8 films.
     
  76. Overall there are more analog / film cameras in the world than digital. Analog had more than 100 years to develop, and billions of cameras have been manufactured and sold. They all need to be fed with - you've guessed it - film.
    Just today I've read the tech specs of Kodak Professional Elite Chrome 100 and stumbled across the information, that this film is also available for 4x5" and 8x10" format. Wow.
    Before 35mm will die, they'll discontinue 8x10. On the other hand I notice that more and more serious photographers step up to larger formats, particularly 8x10 in the Americas.
    I am a photographer. I don't own a digital camera. I still use film for many reasons. I don't worry about the future of film. Not now, not for the years to come. I've read in the LF forum that Kodak just made a statement that 8x10 slide film will be available for at least another 3 years. Guaranteed.
    Then there is the green giant - Fuji. They manufactured the 667 and the 667W. While the first one is sold out, the second one will hit the market soon. Does anybody really think they are so stupid to develop a film camera if they plan do quit the film business?
    In Europe still more than 15% of all prints are made from film. Does anybody think Kodak or Fuji would ignore this market? 15% is a market share of several millions in Euro or US$.
    You can bet your butt that someone would purchase the machines from Kodak if they would quit the biz now.
    BTW, making film is independent from the format: the machines produce very large sheets or strips, which then will be cut into the final format. That means they would either totally stop the machine or let it run - and supply any format as they've used to do over the last 2 decades.
     
  77. Library of Congress today still uses analog reel-to-reel​
    What is good for the Library of Congress is not necessary good or relevant for most of us. I can see why if you have a huge audio library their's would be a useful rationale. But the Library of Congress is certainly digitally archiving its images. Don't forget that preserving film archives of any kind for time immemorial is hardly straightforward.
     
  78. In the last issue of Black & White Photography (UK magazine), it is announced that AgfaPhoto has relauched the production of the Agfa APX 100 in 135 format. 120 format will be made avalaible in 2011. The 135 format is avalaible online through Silverprint.com –> http://www.silverprint.co.uk/ProductByGroup.asp?PrGrp=2271
    Now, I don't know if the film will be avalaible in North America. This is my beloved film.
    Pierre Boucher, Montréal, Canada
     
  79. "Don't forget that preserving film archives of any kind for time immemorial is hardly straightforward."
    I think this is a much bigger issue for digital than for film. The archival properties of film are one reason why it is still so valuable. Will we be able to see the digital 'files' we made 100 years from now, like we can routinely see in film-based exhibits (often work from 100 years ago or more) in museums around the world?
    So far, the only progress made in the digital sphere on any practical basis is the DNG format, but even this will face extinction as more possibilities are developed.
    While film is "outdated" compared to digital in most user convenience measures, it remains to be seen how well digital files will survive even the next twenty years. Which brings us back to the only real archival method for digital files, which is, quite ironically, the creation of actual prints.
    And while anyone can use the exact same camera used by a photographer 100 years ago and produce similar results using the exact same methods, will anyone be able to use a 5DMkii or D700 in even 20 years -- it's doubtful these will even exist except on collector's shelves and in pop culture museums.
     
  80. After bottoming out it seems to me that film is enjoying a small renaissance in the UK, I have a few anedotal sources to support this:
    I was chatting to the owner of Silverpint (a great shop for all things related to film photography) who said that film sales have increased recently from their all time low.
    The Camera Club in Kennington (the oldest photographic club in the world) where I am a member, has seen an increase in teh use of it's dark rooms.
    Lomography (although a fad) seems to be doing well, judging by the number of shops in London, and is introducing a new generation to film.
    Flickr groups, such as 'I shoot film' are very well populated and used.
    I think it will always survive, not in the mainstream, but as a specialised, but important part of photography.
     
  81. The Ongoing "Mystery" is why these threads keep popping up. Yesterday British Journal of Photography announced that Ilford Harman is making the first NEW black and white photo paper in 13 years. They also announced Kodak is bringing out a new Portra 160 film to replace the previous VC/NC emulsions. The Kodak CEO said the company plans to keep manufacturing film as long as photographers use it, and noted a New YOUNG generation of film photographers coming up.
    But the ignorant can't be bothered with silly things like "Facts". In a couple of days some bonehead will start another thread like this about the death of film and analog photography. And like lemmings, we'll all jump in. I encourage you to go over to the Classic Camera forum & talk to people who actually shoot pictures on film.
     
  82. Russ Tell me about it and Ultrafine just introduced a new line of rebadged B&W films too.
     
  83. In response to the missive above, I note that the majority of those who predict the continued viability of film proclaim that it is still being made in larger formats, so why worry? That doesn't relieve those of us who use 35mm E6 exclusively. I've no interest in carrying a Hasselblad around, since most of my photography these days is done during travel abroad, and I'd prefer to keep my neck unbroken. There are, I believe, digital alternatives in medium format. So, you see, my initial inquiry that launched this thread-become-rope was not "boneheaded." Reliable labs for E6 processing/mounting can be counted on the digits of one hand. Nobody does K64 now. Like The Prophet Daniel, I believe I can discern the meaning of the various symbols on the wall.
     
  84. "...my initial inquiry that launched this thread-become-rope was not "boneheaded." Reliable labs for E6 processing/mounting can be counted on the digits of one hand. "
    Well Shane, why didn't you SPECIFY "35mm E6" in the post then? You would have gotten more pertinent answers and made it easier for future querents to find info. Unfortunately E6 & Transparencies were in trouble LONG before digital made inroads. That market began declining rapidly in the late 80's. I share your concern since I shoot a lot of Super 8 Reversal stock and love to project it directly. So far Kodak seems to be hanging in there with a few E6 emulsions. Fuji has theirs as well.
     
  85. I believe, Mr. Sarile, that I have on at least two occasions thanked the respondents, thinking this thread had played itself out. But in the interest of good manners, I again thank all who responded for the wealth of useful information.
    Mr. Rosener, I believe if you consult my initial posting I specifically mentioned E-6 film. I said nothing of print or larger formats. I realize that the old "slide show" on the trusty Ektagraphic started going out of vogue some years ago. I, however, still project my slides. A bit quaint, perhaps, but that does not bother me in the least. I thank ALL again for the responses. The number quite exceeded my expectations.
     
  86. In further response to Mr. Rosener, I specifically noted in the original posting that I was concerned about continued availablity of "E-6 emulsions" for use in my Nikon F100. I assumed that most persons who would bother to respond would know that the F100 is a rather celebrated 35mm SLR that has been around for some years. In short, I think your criticism on this score is groundless. Yours, Shane Usary, soon to become "Cybershane."
     
  87. I realize that the old "slide show" on the trusty Ektagraphic started going out of vogue some years ago.​
    I spoke to my sister today about having a slide show of our late father's slides. This will be done properly with projector and screen, not some second rate imitation with scans and a television.
     
  88. I dunno if this answers the question but, every time I go into my local Ralph's market, I see Fuji film 4-roll packs on Clearance sale. In fact, I just bought a few rolls last night. The expiration date is 12/2012 so it is not old stock. It was $5 for the 4-roll pack. Every time I go in, there is a few more boxes of film, all marked "Clearance Sale! 50% off" and all still fresh film. I keep wondering what this means.
     
  89. I'm sure there's been plenty of comments on this. E6 looks to be in a shakier position than B&W or C41, ignoring other factors such as stability of the companies that make the film. Processing is a bit harder to find. Kodak has only a couple of E6 products left - E100VS and E100G and the two consumer counterparts.
    Fuji has a lot more, but the company's overall stance appears to me to be a lot more difficult to discern. They are also shedding products. I know a lot of people say that it looks like Kodak is sticking to C41 and Fuji is sticking with E6, but Fuji's offerings really are getting decimated all across the board - C41, B&W, and several E6 films. I don't know what this means. To be fair, their E6 lineup was pretty large.
     
  90. ... Yours, Shane Usary, soon to become "Cybershane."​
    Doesn't surprise me. I think he's been "Cybershane" from the get-go, along with some of his choice relatives...
    The Ongoing "Mystery" is why these threads keep popping up. Yesterday British Journal of Photography announced that Ilford Harman is making the first NEW black and white photo paper in 13 years. They also announced Kodak is bringing out a new Portra 160 film to replace the previous VC/NC emulsions. The Kodak CEO said the company plans to keep manufacturing film as long as photographers use it, and noted a New YOUNG generation of film photographers coming up.
    But the ignorant can't be bothered with silly things like "Facts". In a couple of days some bonehead will start another thread like this about the death of film and analog photography. And like lemmings, we'll all jump in. I encourage you to go over to the Classic Camera forum & talk to people who actually shoot pictures on film.​
    Well said, Russ. I suspect a lot of them are perhaps not completely ignorant, but have ulterior motives; i.e. "Oh, I'm so worried about my hundred-fifty dollar camera depreciating..." Makes a whole bunch of sense. Brings to mind a certain local camera store owner telling people three years ago that he was told film was about to be "discontinued" while he sold them new digital cameras.
    I think it speaks extremely well of film photography that so many of us are passionate enough to spend our time on these b.s. artists.
     
  91. I was so worried Jeff, that I just purchased a second Nikon F5 a few weeks back. ;-)
     
  92. Just shoot film enjoy and adjust as you have too. Just because you shoot film does not mean you can't evolve. I shoot film because I enjoy processing and scanning my own B&W as for color I shoot E6 and send it off. I just got another new film camera today because well because $23.00 for a Minolta XG1 with a lens was too hard to pass up. I ordered 100 feet of film and funny thing is it was $22.99. :)
     
  93. I received a telepathic transmission from the Pythia of Delphi earlier in the evening. I consider her more credible than that dreary early Renaissance fraud Michel de Notre Dame, aka Nostradamus. It was then rephrased by the Sybil of Cumae as follows: "Leviathans of West and East/One hue of Mars' face and Sol Invictus and other of hue verdant/Destroy punctured strips of transparent parchment/During second reign of a Moab black and white."
     
  94. When you're having that real slide show, don't forget to have the temperature turned up to about 80ºF, the room dark, Uncle Fred snoring in the corner, and the bulb burning out half-way through.
    Nothing in the world so sleep-inducing as the subtle click, click, of the projector and a voice intoning
    "If this weren't overexposed, you would see Uncle Fred in the water....."
    Ah, memories of childhood and a thousand slide-illustrated lectures. Heaven.
     
  95. Oh, one last thing (or two). First, I have been a fierce partisan of film for years, as my old and sometimes bellicose battles with "cyberheads" on this very site will attest. So I have NOT been a "cyberhead" from the beginning. Second, if I had my way, cybernetics and photography would never have become even casual acquaintances. The advent of digital "photography" was the result of a crisis in the camera industry during the 90's, when 35mm camera sales went sharply downward because consumers, satisfied with the excellent and durable 35mm instruments they had, stopped sucuumbing to the temptation to "move up to the latest thing." Alas, something had to be done. So, said the great viziers of Nikon, Canon, and ultimately Sony, we shall simply stop making 35mm cameras and replace them with junky, overpriced digital product. We've done enough R&D to do that. Idiots will pay $800 for our 3MP toys (after they are taught what "MP" means); we shall meanwhile continue digital R&D and eventually create a new, vast market that will rise from the ashes of the "old hat, you don't want that" 35mm stuff we peddled for so long. After all, we have a generation of kids coming along who will snap up anything that even remotely connotes cybernetics. The older folks will eventually join the bandwagon, and happiness will once again reign in The Land of the Rising Sun.
     
  96. S.Usary that is the most important thing I have heard all day. I like Humor and histological mashed History is great Look for more Harry Turtledove books. :)
     
  97. Who or what the hell is "Harry Turtledove"? Moreover, the relevance of "histological" here is rather obscure to me.
     
  98. Look him up on the internet. Famous Author.
     
  99. Sounds like a nom de plume for a scrivener of childrens' tomes. I still would like an explanation of the relevance of histology here.
     
  100. Sorry you did not get the joke.
     
  101. If there's a joke there, it's about as obscure as some of W. S. Burroughs' prose scribbled when he was under the influence of hallucinogens. Or perhaps I'm just becoming too literal-minded. But then, I fail to see how body tissues and electron microscopes even begin to "fit" here. If joke it was, it must stem from your own, purely private sense of humor. Perhaps you're an aspiring coroner--they get to study body tissues and use cameras, too.
     
  102. Um that rant had nothing to do with what I was talking about. It had to do with the biblical prophesies and past references in this thread all 10+ pages of it about Nostradamus, 2012 and I think even Job.
    Sorry I was in on this thread from the beginning and I seem to remember much of it.
     
  103. First post by Shane Usary on Feb 22, 2011; 01:55 p.m.
    Last post by Larry Dressler on Feb 24, 2011; 10:34 p.m.
    And slide film and E6 labs still exist!
    2002 someone predicted that film will definitely be dead in one or two years. Today, 2011, I use more film than ever before with better emulsions than ever before.
    1993, with the rise of IT and mailboxes (and the beginning of the Internet) someone predicted that news papers will disappear in a few years. Today, 2011, I just picked up my current issue from the door step.
    1994 someone predicted that we will have paperless offices very soon. I said: no way, we won't see any paperless offices until we will see paperless toilets. Today, 2011, most of the paper is printed in offices around the world - not in newspapers or magazines!
    Film is and always will be an economic factor. It is an established, reliable medium.
    I don't know why so many people want to scare others with these weird predictions. I'm not scared, I just continue to work as usual, enjoying the fantastic new emulsions we could only dream of several years ago. And I know I am not alone!
    I'll pack my stuff for another shooting today. Kodak EliteChrome, Fuji Provia 100F. Arca Swiss. Tripod. Several Rodenstock lenses. Plus one of my Contax G2 systems for some quick shots. And I already know it will be a wonderful day.
     
  104. LOL I went out in a thunderstorm today and shot some Tri-X in a new to me Minolta Mg1 that I got for 23 bucks I rated it at 1000 and will develop it in Acufine. believe me I have more photography and humor in my little finger than most have in their whole life.
     
  105. "The ongoing mystery: how long will 35mm film be available?"
    That's the title of this post. I don't see anything mentioned about E6. I like E6, as stated mostly for Super 8 movie film which I direct project.
     
  106. I gather you never read beyond the title of the posting, old boy. The specific references to E-6 and my 35mm Nikon F100 in the body of the posting established the parameters of the question. You don't acquire much information from just scanning the headlines.
     
  107. A final riposte to Mr. Dressler. I maintain that it's quite a stretch to draw some humorous parallel between the mundane subject of this thread and either the microscopic study of tissues or the occasional jocular references to fraudulent prognosticators. I couldn't resist looking at your profile here. I assume you are the subject of the displayed portrait. Come on, now. Admit it. You're really Leon Redbone travelling under a pseudonym here, aren't you? Inquiring minds want to know. If so, I'm a longtime enthusiast for your work. I also never believed you were really Frank Zappa.
     
  108. Oh, one more question for Dressler. If I'm wrong about the Redbone theory, then are you any relation to Marie, the celebrated thespian?
     
  109. Larry, I couldn't help noticing in your photo that
    there seems to be quite a pile of film laying on your bed.
    Hhmmnn...Forgive me...but just how
    much further do you really go with your films beyond
    the "lick"??? :p
     
  110. Just plain distasteful. Give it up.
     
  111. ... but opinions seem to change by the month and I haven't checked this out in a good while. What are current, informed opinions or facts as to how long 35mm reversal/slide film will be available?...​
    And the inherent near-absurdity of this didn't occur to you...
     
  112. I see no "inherent absurdity" in the query. I hoped I might receive a response from someone who follows the photographic press (which I seldom do) and had run across some authoritative pronouncement. That has not occurred; as usual, people just guess based on their own preferences or fervent hopes. Thanks and farewell to all.
     
  113. Right you are JDM, and it reads more with
    overstepping in humor to me now than when I had
    first wrote it. I would love to blame it on the ice
    that was in my glass last night, but I usually know
    better regardless. It was all meant to be in good
    humor with Larry, and thank you for calling me on
    it with good candor. I may also be just a tad jealouse, as I've only been with a few films in my lifetime while so many others have tried them all. And with such ease!
     
  114. S. Usary, you sound young and I would advise that
    you not taking things too seriously. You obviously
    have a lot of smarts about you, but I would suggest
    you relax and roll with the punches. Don't give up
    with comming on here and you will find that some
    questions will draw a lot better response. I would
    know as I've asked a many which deserved being
    doused with vinegar.
     
  115. The Red camera is the digital movie camera of choice for some, not a Canon DSLR.
    Except that several FULL LENGTH movies have used Canon EOS DSLRs going back 3+ years now. So why does anyone say something they know [little] about? That italics quote was written to imply that Reds are used "over EOS DSLRs" which is not true. "For some" can mean anything, here perhaps it means 10%? 25%?
     
  116. Digitally originated movies will be shot with Sony, Red, Panavision, Dalsa and Arriflex cameras. True, some movies have used the Canon EOS but it would not be the camera of choice for a serious cinematographer.
     
  117. With the movie industry and hospitals moving rapidly to digital I would guess less than 10 years film will be gone.
    Jim
     
  118. In response to Mr. Watkins, I am not so young, and I received my first 35mm, a little all-manual Ricoh, at age 12. Within a year a relative taught me the craft of the darkroom. I admit to being a bit flippant in some of my responses, but it's all intended to be in good humor, I assure you. I had a little fun with Mr. Dressler (I still say he's Leon Redbone), but my natural smart-assedness was limited to that, I believe. As for my original query, it was neither unreasonable nor lacking in serious intent. I was merely in a quandary as to whether to invest in a DSLR. My intention was to seek out any factual or authoritative information as to the longevity of 35mm positive film to aid me in that decision. This was implicit in the original posting. After much thought and further net research, I sadly and reluctantly concluded that the future of 35mm E-6 emulsions is bleak indeed. Look at my Delphic/Pythian "oracle" missive earlier and you'll understand, perhaps, what I concluded based upon the weight of at least halfway informed opinion. Finally, methinks people take this whole site and its subject matter a bit too seriously. After all, we're only talking about taking photographs here, not the future of Western civilization as we know it. Adieu to all, and once again, merci beaucoups for the responses. Yours, Shane Usary.
     
  119. One last note en passant. Mr. Papai's name sounds familiar. Are you by any chance a resident of Marin County in The Bear Republic?
     
  120. Several SERIOUS cinematographers have used Canon DSLRs in multi-million dollar feature length films--directors include Christopher Nolan and Tim Burton.
    S.U.: c'est moi!
     
  121. ... I had a little fun with Mr. Dressler...​
    No, more like we had a little fun with you. Larry's more knowledgeable than you could be in ten lives. And way funnier.
    Yada, yada, yada... and more!:
    "...Finally, methinks people take this whole site and its subject matter a bit too seriously..."​
    The lady protests too much, methinks. Now, get back to your alternate universe!
     
  122. Long Thread. I guess I don't have any idea how long anything will last. I just bought a F100 a couple months ago from KEH.com. It's a LN- and I really like it. I am so glad to have that camera. I have a D200 also for back up. It's pretty good. I like it more then the newer digital camera's becasue I do not want to much gadgetry associated with the camera. This one has ISO 100 which is good, poor dynamic range which is bad. It does not have vidio or a sensor wiggler which makes me happy. It takes expensive batteries which is real bad. I have not used it for a while but if my F100 breaks or the world runs out of film I will crack it out and do the digi snapper thing. I shoot mostly B/W film so the F100 is a good camera for my use. I am thinking about a Zeiss Ikon but they are kind of expensive. Still I might spring for it. Just waiting to see which way my wife's head moves. Up and down is yes and side to side is no. So far her beautiful head has not made the commitment but she said it will before next June.
    As far as slide film goes, I do like Elitechrome 100. Delightful film however I have settled in for the long run with B/W. I shoot B/W film and everybody else I know in the world has a digi snapper camera.
     
  123. Well, Mr. Z., you know absolutely nothing about the extent of my knowledge, my intellect, or the breadth and depth of my humor on the basis of one silly thread on an insignificant blog. Thus, you have no real basis for comparison, and thus I shall ignore your rude presumptuousness for the dreck that it is. Besides, I was not on here to display knowledge or to assume the role of comic. I can't divine why you seem to bear me ill will. I know nothing of you, nor do I care to learn anything of you. Jeez, the creeps that turn up in the streets (and on blogs) these days. You and others of like mien and mind merely furnish additional data in support of the "dumbing down of America" hypothesis. Cordially, SU.
     
  124. Several SERIOUS cinematographers have used Canon DSLRs -- Aranofsky's BLACK SWAN as well.
    Don't take "Jeff Z" seriously either. Were he serious, he would stand behind his words with an image portfolio, website, account, bio, etc. He revels in the anonymity. Like a trifle.
     
  125. Black Swan was mostly shot on Super 16 with Fuji Eterna film. The DSLRs were for the subway bits, they wanted the smallest equipment they could work with.
     
  126. I was reasonably certain that I remembered Mr. Papai from a battle royal hereon from two years or so ago. Ironically, I was in the role of championing film while Papai was certain that digital had already rendered film obsolete. You then followed me to another forum in an effort to keep the fracas going. I recall denominating you "the Marin County hot tubber," borrowing a phrase from George H. W. Bush, who was referring to that benighted kid named Lindh who thought it would be fun to be a Taliban jihadist for a while. As I recall, Mr. Bush pronounced your county "MARE-uhn." Oh, well, the Bush clan probably isn't very popular there. Keep on sending Lynn Woolsey to the House. Marvellous lady. SU
     
  127. Marin County is a wonderful and beautiful place. I have a nephew that lives a little further north in Sonoma County which is another beautiful place. Being a liberal myself I could care less if somebody shoots a digital camera or a film camera. You can shoot an ipad 2 if you want. Just hold the big calculator looking thingy up and snap away and It's fine with me. I have a cat that is pretty smart. I am sure she knows when E-6 will die all the way. There are quite a few E-6 labs around and they want to know as soon as she give a nod from her head. Up and down means yes it will die soon, and side to side means it will be around for a long while. So far she won't nod. I think she will by next June however. My beautiful wife and my one eyed cat are working as a team on the June thing.
     
  128. Well, Mr. Z., you know absolutely nothing about the extent of my knowledge, my intellect, or the breadth and depth of my humor on the basis of one silly thread on an insignificant blog.​
    And I've heard more than enough of your endless b.s. to care.
    Don't take "Jeff Z" seriously either. Were he serious, he would stand behind his words with an image portfolio, website, account, bio, etc. He revels in the anonymity. Like a trifle.​
    Too funny, I've taken you for a pompous putz ever since reading only a few posts quite some time ago.
    Why don't you two go some place besides the film forum?? (Rhetorical question)
     
  129. Like I said, Jeff is not and cannot be serious. Just another Jeff..... Another Z. Reveling in name calling from his anonymous castle upon high.
     
  130. Actually, Charles Watkins, my comment about the trend the thread was taking being distasteful was written before I saw your post -- writing it took a long time, since I was trying not to heat the pot still further, and I discarded many prior versions. I took your comments as being humorous in intention. I don't think the earlier comments were, unfortunately.
    Of course, the actual target of the comment will probably not realize who they were, even now. I believe the term is "clueless."
     
  131. The best way to answer this question is not to worry about it. If you love shooting film like I do, then just keep shooting it. We are not in control of tomorrow so just work with what you have today.
     
  132. Perhaps the "Z" does indeed signify zero. A nonentity with a craving for attention. Castle on high? I suspect basement efficiency is a more likely venue.
     
  133. Ken, by any chance, did you mean another .[.Z ? I miss the bombastic rascal.
     
  134. I think you are all funny. And no need to snipe here. Yes I have been told I look like Leon Redbone and also like Frank Zappa. I was away for a little over a day and I see where this went. Again just shoot all the film you want and enjoy it. This is the internet and I learned years ago that if you take everything too serious you will lose the great wheat that is in the chaff.
    Larry
     
  135. I was very much surprised on my last trip to Dubai to find 120 kodak films, not many but 45 of them which I bought, other wise these size films are totally un available in my part of the world, another 50 120 films I bought from kodak dealer in Colombo Sri Lanka while the Slide Fuji 120 films from b&h.
    It was interesting to fine also in Dubai 35mm films made by Mistoboshi but I scared to buy any of them.
    Films like 120, slides and b/w are getting too rare here and thats indicates they might also run out of the world markets in 2 or 3 years time, I believe even if some remained behind the chemical to process those films will be too rare to find, other wise all the labs will stop processing films in 3 years times.
     
  136. Rashed
    If this is the film you are talking about I got some and in my opinion it is Foma.
    [​IMG]
     
  137. No my friend Larry, it is MitshMitsubisi, this film made in Japan, I been give 6 of them, did not use them yet, the sale man told me that they import and re exports these films to some countries in Africa and they are relatively much cheaper than kodak or fuji films, the box in dark blue.
     
  138. Yes it is the same film different box I am pretty sure. It looks real good in Rodinol I used full stand 1-100 for a hour. It said made in Japan on the box but the development times were the exact same as Foma 100. I will take a look as I may have some examples of it.
     
  139. Thank you my friend Larry, I will go ahead and use the 6 films I have, I actually been offered to get these films for very cheap price in case I been interested, if so I will be some more of them
    Thank you my friend.
     
  140. No problem. I found the pictures. Here is one I used HC-110 Dilution H for 10 minutes.
    [​IMG]
    And another
    [​IMG]
     
  141. Thirty years ago people were engaging in similar speculations regarding the status of small format movie films like Super 8.

    Last time I checked, Kodak is still producing Super 8 movie film in several different varieties, reversal and color. Ebay sales of Super 8 movie cameras and projectors have also remained vigorous over the past ten years.

    Frankly, I think I have a greater chance of dying from a heart attack or stroke than of one day ending up with a closet full of Nikon and Canon 35mm film bodies and no film to put in them.

    Those who like to clamor endlessly about film's imminent demise are, in my view, simply trying to reinforce and rationalize their own yielding to the current widespread preference for the digital photographic medium.

    As for me, I much prefer traditional photo-chemical methods to full-frame digital for anything but casual snap shots. B&W film appears to exhibit superior tonal characteristics and color transparency film can be projected in such a way as to produce an aesthetic experience which does not compare with that rendered by even the highest quality computer monitor.

    This discussion calls to mind a passage from Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil, where he remarks that "One must renounce the bad taste of wishing to agree with many people."

    I agree.
     
  142. Unfortunately Michael Axel was right at Feb 22, 2011; 02:04 p.m.

    "The date was actually noted many centuries ago, and it is: December 21, 2012."
    Kodak diead 1.3.2012 and my friedn from Japan told me that Fuji will stop production sometime this year though. Truly sad....
     
  143. "my friedn from Japan told me that Fuji will stop production sometime this year"


    This sounds very much like a hoax. Don't be so quick to believe everything you hear.
     
  144. My friend in Japan said "Nuclear power plants are safe." :) Folks there will always be 35mm film of some type for us to use if that is what we want to do. The proof is how many people I have gotten to try and keep using the new ORWO films.
    Will we always have always have E6 film. I am not going to make that call. Will we always have some type of B&W film? I say yes we will. Will we always have some type of Color negative film. Always is a long time but I say we will for many years to come.
    My last 2 cents worth on this. Have fun go shoot a roll of film today and feel better about yourself.
    Larry
     
  145. Have fun go shoot a roll of film today and feel better about yourself.​
    I just do that and , yes I feel better and really can't imagine a day when there will not be a film.
    Well , about Fuji I don't now , i didn't say it will be for sure , but "where there's smoke there's fire". I really would like to be optimist , and I did believe in film future until I saw Kodak's DISCONTINUATION NOTICE.
    "Will we always have some type of Color negative film"
    I want always the best films, because shooting with low quality films doesn't make sense to day
     
  146. I too was dismayed to see Kodak throw the last of its remaining 35mm reversal emulsions under the bus, however, it is interesting to note that while Kodak has for now pulled the plug on slide film, it continues to offer color reversal movie film for the super 8 format. This tells me that as long as there is a demand for a film, Kodak will produce it. There just doesn't seem to be enough demand right now to support 35mm reversal under Kodak's present circumstances. That doesn't mean that its gone forever. If Super 8 color reversal (an obsolete format if their ever was one) managed to bounce back after the scuttling of its iconic Kodachrome mainstay, there really is no reason to think that 35mm reversal won't eventually follow suit.
    Manufacturers obviously need to pare down their line of traditional emulsion based products as 35mm gives way almost completely to the new consumer digital format, but it hardly follows from this that 35mm cannot survive indefinitely as a niche product in exactly the same way that Super 8 has. Granted, the choices aren't as diverse as they once were, though in many ways this is a refreshing development, as the lack of this formerly luxurious array allows one to forego the tendency to indiscriminately vacillate between films rather than concentrate on the art itself. I frankly do not care if there is only one or two types of slide film available, as long as they are of good quality and reasonably priced processing is available.
    Besides, Kodak's E-6 line was never that appealing anyway. Apart from the now defunct Kodachrome, which I consider to have been Kodak's only truly unique and irreplaceable offering in this department, many have expressed the opinion, with which I completely concur, that Kodak never did anything with E-6 slide films that Fuji didn't do better.
    Last time I checked, Fuji is still producing Velvia and Provia with great aplomb, so I must assume that sales continue to be brisk. The number of people using these films is obviously not as great as it was ten years ago, but I believe there are enough hard core 35mm enthusiasts to justify continuing production of at least these two brands almost indefinitely, and certainly a greater remnant than that which comprises the dwindling community of contemporary Super 8 enthusiasts!
    As the saying goes, KEEP HOPE ALIVE!
     
  147. I just loaded a roll of Elitechrome 400 from the freezer. It won't be gone until I say so. :) I also loaded a roll of Tri-X. Buy Film.Buy Fresh.Buy often.
     
  148. Buy it and enjoy it while you can.
     
  149. Use it develop it and abuse it...
     
  150. I presume all of those who wrote a comment or two in this thread have already bought digital replacements to their beloved film camera. Therefore, they are not afraid of anything. It sounds more like: "I will stick to that girl till she is fed up with me and quits, and in the meantime I will be laying ground for "replacement" relationship. Stupid Asses. Film manufacturers are already fed up with you. It is a question of months now when you come home and read a parting note.
     
  151. Well Oleg, you are wrong on my account. I made comments yet still use film.
    Nonetheless, I am not afraid of anything so in that regard you are correct.
    In the meantime, there is more to worry about in this life than the availability of photographic film.
    At least Hamburgers and Pizza still exist.
     
  152. I may have spoke too harsh, sorry. That's because I only recently realized that nobody is actually want film to stay now. Or, more precisely put, manufacturers can not be that flexible and run production lines for several thousands people around the globe who want to live in both camps.
    Well, from one hand there is a fast approaching possibility to Buy an F5 or RTS-III for $100 or even less, but what's it for if no one can tell how much a box of ANY film will cost then and what's the point to shoot ANY film with Zeiss lenses I can't figure out.
     
  153. david_henderson

    david_henderson www.photography001.com

    What are current, informed opinions or facts​
    And there lies your problem. There aren't any. Just speculation. If you think that manufacturers know the answer to this question and simply don't tell people you are likely much mistaken. Neither will they have a series of immutable trigger points that when activated will cause the decision to be made. Its much more subjective and random than that . You have a choice that no-one can help you with. Either keep using slide film till you can't get it (or processing) affordably and conveniently any more. Or hedge your bets and prepare for a digital future. Some people choose one and some the other.
     
  154. I presume all of those who wrote a comment or two in this thread have already bought digital replacements to their beloved film camera.​


    Then your presumption would be incorrect.
     
  155. Actually, we do not chose anything. Even Fuji can't chose now, whether to produce film or to stop producing it. They are subject to market situation and are flowing with the current, apparently, this is what Mr. David Henderson's comment implies. I see only one workaround, though I wouldn't stake anything on it. If the prices for used film equipment dropped dramatically today, this might (theoretically) result in an artificially stimulated increase in the film consumption for a year or two. There are people who run the greatest risk nowadays. I mean professional film camera dealers and Ebay power sellers. You know what I mean. If the worst scenario happens, they will lose everything which is not a collectible item.
     
  156. "Prediction is hard, in particular about the future." So I'll just avoid arguing and follow Larry's advice going out and shooting with my films and enjoy them.
    By the way, I don't have digital cameras. I sold mine a few months ago. I go back to all films now. What a liberation :)
     
  157. The ongoing mystery: How long before we give up discussing this?
     
  158. At the moment we are seeing the market for film stabilizing, if not firming again. This is because film lives in a niche now. Fuji reports their sales globally have showed a slight improvement this year and its profitable. The real issue is the availability of development.
    I have a foot in both film and digital. If I could get a decent scanner at a good price or find someone who will develop and scan for a decent fee I'll persevere.
     
  159. Oleg Andriyenko, Dec 09, 2012; 04:42 a.m.
    I presume all of those who wrote a comment or two in this thread have already bought digital replacements to their beloved film camera. Therefore, they are not afraid of anything. It sounds more like: "I will stick to that girl till she is fed up with me and quits, and in the meantime I will be laying ground for "replacement" relationship. Stupid Asses. Film manufacturers are already fed up with you. It is a question of months now when you come home and read a parting note.​
    Wow, that's got to be one of the most rude and condescending posts I've seen in a while. Months? Really? I'll only have Ilford B&W film for a few months before they close? Care to put money on that?
     
  160. Lex paging Lex.
     
  161. It doesn't matter. The world as we know it will end 21 December 2012.
     
  162. I apologize for rudeness. I am as guilty as anyone else. I am one of those "undeserving poor" living in a third-world country, who were hit by the film prices coming up to the point to almost stop photographing at all after 20 years of it. I never tried to keep a foot in both camps. I think it will be months.
    I also have a question.
    Who ever cared about the B&W? What can (or ever could) B&W change in the big game? When Fuji folds, Ilford and Fotokemika and the rest of the gang can continue to produce B&W film and paper to fill the demand of Fine Art Gallery Goers forever. But it is really not the same thing the F5 and, say, 600mm f/4 were made for. (Luckily, the 600mm is a sure value, whatever happens). You see, some people still have MANY MODERN film cameras for sale. And these are not so obsolete to be called collectibles. And all these will become deadweight the next morning Fuji phases out the last professional film.
     
  163. Well if anyone has been tracking used film equipment sales over the past 6 or 7 years they know the prices have steadily crept up.
    Some items have gone crazy in their pricing. Of course, this is mostly lenses that can be double purposed to work on digital cameras.
    But even darkroom equipment has gone up. And so have high quality film scanners.
    Also to consider is there has been a major economic recession that hit at the same time as the digital flood and drove people away from film. As economies improve, they are finding their way back.
    Throughout the world, and even rural areas in high-cost countries, film and supplies have become difficult and more expensive to source. But using the internet, people most anywhere should be able to supply all their needs and desires for better prices than we have enjoyed for years. One only needs to plan ahead and make a volume purchase to offset the shipping costs.
    Certainly film is now in the niche market for hobbyists and fine art enthusiasts but there are dozens of millions of people that prefer the film experience in photography.
     
  164. Of all the threads on this issue, this is the one that affirms my confidence that film will be around for a long time.
     
  165. Yes, it may be AROUND, dozens of millions of people using it may also be an existential experience. I feel myself like a player in the casino among other players, who want to continue playing all night. But there is some guy in a suit, who comes and says: "The game is over for today, gentlemen".
    Now you see, who makes decisions.
     
  166. I know it's late in the game but for anyone who might not have seen this post in another category, there's a link to a recent Washington Post article on Kodak's fate, possible plans and how they can learn from the Polaroid experience.
    http://www.photo.net/casual-conversations-forum/00b7S9
    Cheers, Allan
     
  167. My crystal ball shows a photographer in the future shooting film.
    [​IMG]
    Damn, Larry... all I have to say is damn. Nice shot.
     
  168. Thanks Jeff.
     
  169. Don't forget that a lot of people shoot film not because they prefer film over digital but because they like their film cameras. The weak link is not film anyway. It is the local labs. For me, it is the end if I can't get film processed(very) locally.
     
  170. I love not like my cameras and the media that is in strips in it.... :) I love a day at times with my Mir 26 without a hood on my Arax 60,
     
  171. OLEG, The guy in the suit making the decisions is very real - he in known as the "Tech Giants". He wants a world completely digital and will work his crafty corporate ways to make sure film-based imaging is thwarted. Another name for the guy in the suit is "Big Oil". He makes sure electric-powered cars never happen. Very simple Business 101.
     
  172. Film base is made from oil.
     
  173. ...and I allways thought it was gelatin
     
  174. Only the coating that holds the silver...
     
  175. It will be available a long time, but it will come from Asia. China and Japan have thriving companies: Fuji, Lucky, Shanghai.
    I also think people are coming back to film somewhat, which should increase demans.
     
  176. "It will be available a long time, but it will come from Asia. China and Japan have thriving companies: Fuji, Lucky, Shanghai.
    I also think people are coming back to film somewhat, which should increase demans."

    B*LLSH*T.
    Do you have a thousand or two film cameras in stock, like many of them Hong-Kong camera store owners do, to advocate such nonsense?
    I will tell you what will happen, though I can't tell you the exact date. (How I wish, I knew it!).
    One day (it will be a grey day, dull weather, nothing special) Fuji announces that they stop producing film from the next month or two. The next day you will rush to the nearest store to buy yourself a lifetime supply of Superia. No way. The seller will inform you that all his stock was bought yesterday, as a matter of fact during one or two hours Fuji made the official statement.
    The remainder of film stock will then be sold mostly to hardcore mechanical Leica users for $20 to $50 per a box of film, depending on its expiration date. Film cameras will become a dead-weight. Millions of them in perfect form, just as good as dead-weight.
    This is what would happen to regular cars, if tomorrow you suddenly woke up in the world of electric cars.
    With only one small difference: you already ARE in the world of digital cameras.
     
  177. When the man in the suit shows up I will take my game to the back alley. :)
    --
    Oh, by the way, all of our cars can be changed to run on electric motors if we so desire. My friend and I converted an old Volkswagen to electric back in 1979. Pretty easy to do.
    --
    Larry Dressler has a recipe to make film from Egg Whites!
     
  178. I have wise and strange friends Bill. :)
     
  179. The "back alley", i.e. B&W photography. The true and the only "photography" there is. It's like classical music, the eternal verities. But I love colour (and the 70-ies). As a matter of fact, I can't live without colour. And without all these particularities of rendering colours inherent to film.
    Sadly, I can't make colour film from egg whites. If anyone has a recipe, it's the best time to start selling it out.
     
  180. Oleg why do you seem so full of hate? Relax learn how we are dealing with the changes and join in... My father hated my music I now love much of his....
    Larry
     
  181. Not hate. Despair. I don't generally HATE, because HATE requires too much TIME. "Raise above HATE, (where you can)" is my motto. I am in despair, though. I planned going out on photographing journeys with my kid in 10 year's time. Looks like it will be just sight-seeing. You can't be bitten with digital, if you know what I mean. There is actually nothing YOU do. The CAMERA does everything.
     
  182. Sigh... I take it you don't know me if you think the Digital is affecting me or my life. I still have trouble understanding what you are talking about. I shoot film in film cameras... What else is there to do?
     
  183. Relax please.Film will be around for a long time because there is still plenty of worldwide demand to support it and the film producers are still making a decent profit.I loved Kodak but they are a pretty poor example of good managment decision makers over the years.It would be hard to base the longevity of film on the 'Kodak Model'.They are currently down to 13,000 employees who mainly support industrial printing methods.Most major cities will have someone who will process it as long as there is money to be made.It won't go away in the near future especially if the world economy finds a little more solid footing.I shoot digital at work because they demand it and I shoot film at home because I enjoy it,plain and simple.I assume with 7 billion people on this planet there must be at least 10% or more who are in the same situation as I.If the crowd turns left we turn right.Maybe we will need to go underground someday because of our beliefs?
     
  184. I guess the homogenization of things in our lives has been obvious to many of us, affecting us in varying degrees, emoting different responses. It's so obvious that in social media, nothing stirs more emotion, and gets more hits than the notion of film for Photographers, that in itself says something, and there's plenty of optimism available there if one chooses to see it. We have lost some great films in the last 10 years, but whats left is great, beautiful, awesome, the evidence is in the film, we are looking right at it, its there, Look! No, film is not going away. If film gets killed its because someone wanted to do it, who is going to be that person? Step forward.
     
  185. The Press Secretary of Fujifilm steps forward: "I have to put a stress on it once again: you will be officially informed about the discontinuation of film in due time and by the Press Secretary of Fujifilm. Just in the same manner as you were informed before. Thank you."
    P.S. You can always perform your own investigation as to who will have killed the film. You will have killed it. I will have killed it. Your kid with iPhone will have killed it. Ebay power-sellers will have killed it. Hollywood will have killed it. We all will have killed it. Tell your colleague at work the truth: "Joe Doe, I will never forget you and myself for having allowed you to commit that crime."
    This truly becomes ridiculous and I see it. Will not be posting in that thread anymore. Switching the notification off.
     
  186. I have done the dirty deed, left 35mm behind.
    I always thought kodachrome would be a hard aact to follow, in 35mm. but idigital capture can pretty much match it now, I hink. even some of the smaller sensor formats can impress when used for large prints.
    the advantage to professionals, of immediately being able to review their images, must be immense.
    most 35mm cameras with pedigree will end up in glass cases,imo. sad. Isay use your F100, as someone will cntinue tomake movie film. how good it will be,is anther matter.
    more important than digital v.analogue film is the quality of images - compositioetc. looking at 1950/60s' leica photografie magazines, standards have not been maintained.
    I also like agfacolor ct18 film
    I windered bout the ld eastg erman ORWO brand of film. I looked at that mine of misinformtion,wikipedia. in its latest incarnation, its still producing film, whether putting it into 35mm cannisters, 70m onto 120 rolls, not menioned.ORWO -OriginalWolfen, had access to agfacolor clour film technology, the transition to digital might be slower
    for secialist use, like aerial photography the transition to digital might be slower
    I also like Agfacolor ct18 reversl film.
    the issue ofarchival qualities of film v. digital. the former will require the hardware of the future to be cmpatible. I think it is wrong to rely solely on one process
    as for
     
  187. The ability to immediately review and reshoot images ... Barf.
    I have done the clean deed, left electronic behind.
     
  188. All I know is I have 2 rolls in the fixer now and 5 more B&W to go then I hit the pile of C-41.
     

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