Turns out I bought a dinosaur :)

[mikemorrellNL]

That the digital camera market has been rapidly moving away from DSLRs to Mirrorless over past years is well known. This topic is very 'tongue in cheek' and is not meant as 'news'. But the video below does include a functionality/price comparison between Canon DSLR and mirrorless bodies.

Background

Not so long ago, I upgraded my older - and still very usable! -  2nd-hand Canon 6D (2012) to a slightly less old 2nd-hand Canon 5D mk iv (2016). I bought the 2nd-hand 5D via a reputable online camera store. I was delighted by the condition and by the completeness of the delivery (new strap, manuals, etc.). So far, it's been a joy to use. Though it's been a learning curve to use the additional and more sophisticated functionality than my trusty 6D has.

Up until now, I've used the 5D for taking photos. On the few occasions in which I wanted to take videos too, I used my mobile phone for the video's. But I also want to learn how to take videos with the 5D. I have the manual but Youtube was my go-to 'how to' source. That's how I came across the video (18 min.) below by Lewis Carlyle of/for Premium Light Academy. I've watched multiple Canon 5D mk iv videos but this one is definitely my favourite! Simply because of Lewis's humor, love, appreciation and continued use of this 'dinosaur' camera. Even if you have no interest in DSLR's or the Canon series, even the intro may be worth watching.

Key points

At the start, Lewis highlights that the 5D mk iv still retails (new) at about $2750 - in Europe-and upwards. A high price for a DSLR body launched in 2016! He also points out that Canon mirrorless bodies (R7, R8) with much newer and better functionality than the 5D mk iv, retail - in Europe - new for about half this price. His states that the 5D mk iv continues to be one of his 'workhorses' and praises its quality - especially for video - but that he wouldn't recommend buying the 5D mk iv (new) in 2023, In his opinion, there are far better and cheaper Canon (mirrorless) alternatives at roughly half the price. He also clearly supports the idea that 'the photographer, and not the technology,  makes the photo.

A personal note

I've used Canon DSLRs for years. So with every 'body upgrade' all my lenses perfectly match an upgraded body. T.B.H. I hadn't expected a 2nd-hand market in mirrorless bodies but I've since learned that there is. Anyway, my decision to stick with a Canon DSLR - as opposed to mirrorless - was based on 2 main criteria: stick with what I know, and stick to a body that seamlessly matches my lenses. I'm getting too old (and have too little motivation) to start experimenting with 'mirrorless' bodies and 'lens mount conversion kits'. 

 

 

[SCL]

You're never too old to learn new technology. I was in my early 70s when I tried a used mirrorless body and found its features to my liking...especially as I could use lots of old lenses from various manufacturers, which I hadn't used in years. AND it was inexpensive to experiment around with. Fast forward to last year, I rescued a couple of wonderful film bodies and got an updated lightly used mirrorless body, which I've used almost every day since. My Nikon DSLR and last remaining Nikon SLR film body have been begging for attention, as have my Leicas...but I am enjoying the mirrorless body so much that everything else is taking 2nd or 3rd place. So while you're blessed with a great DSLR (dinosaur), treat yourself if you find a great deal to a mirrorless body and you may be quite pleasantly surprised.

[mikemorrellNL]

7 minutes ago, SCL said:

You're never too old to learn new technology. I was in my early 70s when I tried a used mirrorless body and found its features to my liking...especially as I could use lots of old lenses from various manufacturers, which I hadn't used in years. AND it was inexpensive to experiment around with. Fast forward to last year, I rescued a couple of wonderful film bodies and got an updated lightly used mirrorless body, which I've used almost every day since. My Nikon DSLR and last remaining Nikon SLR film body have been begging for attention, as have my Leicas...but I am enjoying the mirrorless body so much that everything else is taking 2nd or 3rd place. So while you're blessed with a great DSLR (dinosaur), treat yourself if you find a great deal to a mirrorless body and you may be quite pleasantly surprised.

Thanks for  your comment, @SCL! In general, of course you're right!

TBH, I just wanted an upgrade of my 60D (with a broken dial) that worked. In hindsight, I realise that I probably should have done more research into mirrorless. But, for better or worse, I'm still happy with my 2nd-hand 5d mk iv.

I do quite a lot of volunteer work. In 'communications' as a a voluntary photographer, article-writer, 'educator' for website editors and also as 'practical help' volunteer to mainly seniors in solving 'tech' problems. I also play tenor saxophone in a Bigband and attend a weekly series of 'jazz improvisation' workshop. So for me, photography is not really a passion, it's more of a 'craft'. As an amateur, I can take, post-process and deliver photos that delight my 'clients'. They at least invite me back 😉.
So my gut feeling is that that the (5D) body + my current lenses are sufficient for my amateur purposes.

[paddler4]

I don't do video, so I can't speak to that aspect of this thread, but I shot with a 5D III and 5D IV for years. the 5D IV is a wonderful camera: solid as a rock, with superb ergonomics and a very sensible menu system. It's also highly customizable. I sold the 5D IV to buy an R6 II because some of the mirrorless features are relevant for the some types of photography I do. For example, I find the focus bracketing function helpful for my studio macro, and the better AF is very helpful for candids of little kids. However, if you don't need the specific advantages of mirrorless, IMHO, the 5D IV is a very good choice. Enjoy it!

[JDMvW]

We pretty much all knew that this was going to happen, but it was quicker than some of us expected.

 

I have a huge number of old German film cameras and a short history of digital cameras. I'm happy as a clam at high tide, even though they have little monetary value any more.

[AJG]

My newest digital camera is a Pentax K 1 which came out in 2016, I think.  Like you I have lots of lenses that work perfectly on it and are excellent quality so switching to mirrorless would entail a big expenditure for lenses as well as the camera body and I doubt that I would see significant improvement in the professional work that I do which is largely in my studio where size and weight aren't really a factor.   And I am used to all of the controls by now and any new camera will entail a lot of changes to that.  The only thing that tempts me is the ability to use my Zeiss Contax lenses on a digital body, which seems more possible now with Nikon's entry into mirrorless with a thinner cover glass over the imaging chip.  Early Sony models didn't do well with anything much below 50 mm or longer, and I would love to use my 21 mm Biogon and other Zeiss and Nikkor RF lenses for digital photography. But that can wait...

[znabal]

I have a 6D from shortly after they came out in 2012.  I love it, still love it and if I get a "new " camera it will hopefully be a 6D near mint condition.  I'm a decent photographer, but for what I do, the camera isn't the limiting factor.

[mikemorrellNL]

21 hours ago, paddler4 said:

I don't do video, so I can't speak to that aspect of this thread, but I shot with a 5D III and 5D IV for years. the 5D IV is a wonderful camera: solid as a rock, with superb ergonomics and a very sensible menu system. It's also highly customizable. I sold the 5D IV to buy an R6 II because some of the mirrorless features are relevant for the some types of photography I do. For example, I find the focus bracketing function helpful for my studio macro, and the better AF is very helpful for candids of little kids. However, if you don't need the specific advantages of mirrorless, IMHO, the 5D IV is a very good choice. Enjoy it!

Hi @paddler4,  Many thanks for your vote of confidence in the 5D IV!

[mikemorrellNL]

19 hours ago, JDMvW said:

We pretty much all knew that this was going to happen, but it was quicker than some of us expected.

 

I have a huge number of old German film cameras and a short history of digital cameras. I'm happy as a clam at high tide, even though they have little monetary value any more.

Hi @JDMvW, my impression is that many PN members still love using (what I perhaps irreverently would call) 'retro cameras'. In other word 'classic cameras', mostly film-based but also 'instant cameras'. I agree with you that 'new' DSLR's are quickly becoming a dying breed. As companies like Canon and Nikon have for years switched their investments into 'mirrorless' cameras (and compatible lenses). Nikon still have more new DSLRs on sale than Canon but at steadily reduced prSo a'new' cameras, DSLRs are definitely coming to the end of their era. The new era is mirrorless (with a whole lot more tech. that DSLRs!).

The upside of all this is that I (and many others) got to buy a great 2nd hand DSLR!

[David_Cavan]

2 hours ago, mikemorrellNL said:

DSLRs are definitely coming to the end of their era. The new era is mirrorless (with a whole lot more tech. that DSLRs!).

Agreed! And the deals on 2nd hand Canon DSLRs are amazing. I bought a 7D last fall for $800 (Canadian), with less than 5000 actuations. I now have 2 identical 7D bodies so switching in mid-session is a breeze. It came with the complete brand-new kit. I'm at a place where I know I'll upgrade in the next 5 years maybe, 10 for sure. But there's no rush.

[mikemorrellNL]

On 10/28/2023 at 11:59 PM, znabal said:

I have a 6D from shortly after they came out in 2012.  I love it, still love it and if I get a "new " camera it will hopefully be a 6D near mint condition.  I'm a decent photographer, but for what I do, the camera isn't the limiting factor.

Like you, I still love my 6D! I can photograph anything I want with the 6D and the photos always turn out perfectly! Based on your comment, I'm asking myself why I didn't buy a better 6D rather than a 5D mk iv! 

I've found the 5D mk iv to be a more 'sophisticated' (and more difficult to learn) than the 6D.  I'm getting there, bit I sometimes long for the relative simplicity and ease of the 6D. TBH (just as an amateur/voluntary photographer, I'm seriously considering ordering extra cards and batteries so that can use the 6D and 5D mk iv (with different lenses) together.

[Nick D.]

6D is excellent camera, I was happily using it , but I found it's auto-focus sort of limiting, I use to shoot with 1D3 before 6D.

5D4 is good choice. I am still shooting with Nikon D810 and D750, and such a sweet deals online now on old but still good glass. I don't see reasons to switch, but I don't do video.

[marceppy]

I’ve had so many cameras that the only way to remember is to look at the metadata of the digital files.  My slides are in boxes needing to be scanned.  But I just kept moving on to the next best mouse trap.  I tried to buy a 5Dm4 twice, used, in mint condition but each time they had an issue and were returned.  So I moved on to an R7.  It’s a great camera but still learning to use it.  I was going to sell my 1DM4 but recently took it out for a shoot. No way will I sell it.  There’s always a better mouse trap.  A dinosaur indeed.  

Edited November 12, 2023 by marceppy

[Ricochetrider]

All my "dinosaurs" are film cameras! Although I still cling to my 1st gen OMD EM1, so I guess at least one of my dinosaurs is digital... .

I probably have some skeletons, as well - but I keep them in my closet! ha ha  

 

Mike, glad you're happy with your "new" acquisition. 

[hjoseph7]

If I had a choice between a Canon 5D IV and lets say a Canon EOS R5 or R6, I would probably go for the Canon 5D IV. If I was younger, maybe my decision would be different. If you visit a BestBuy(Electronic Retailer) these days you might see a display of mirrorless digital cameras and DSLR's right next to each other. The 5D Mark IV does stick out because of its size !

At first you might think you are looking at a camera from a bygone era, a "Dinosaur", but if you look closely the 5D Mark IV seems to be better built. More robust, rugged and able to handle life's riggors. The mirroless camera look and feel much cheaper.  Then there are the Consumer DSLR's like the Canon 90D, or the Rebel starter cameras which are not much bigger than a mirrorless camera, if size is a major concern for you.

If you pick up one of these cameras this is where the big differences comes in. The mirrorless cameras use an EVF(Electronic View Finder) while the DSLR use the traditional Optical View Finders. To me, the optical viewfinder gives you a more natural view of the outside world, but others might think differently. Looking through an EVF is almost like viewing a clip from a surveillance camera. You are sort of separated from the real world.

Yes, mirroless cameras have a lot of new options that were very hard if not impossible to incorporate into DSLR's, like focus peaking, and blanket auto-focus points, but not having these options never stopped anyone from taking  great pictures. Then come the lenses, I guess you could sell all of your current lenses and replace them with all mirrrorless lenses, but at a not so small cost.

I still would not mind owning a cheap mirrorless camera such as an R10, or M50 just for the sake of owning one, but I don't think I would go any further just to remain in vogue.    

Edited December 22, 2023 by hjoseph7

[Ken Katz]

The 5D mk iv is a great camera, but if money is not a factor (rarely of course), in 2023 there is no way I would not go with an R5.  Sensor performance and resolution is significantly improved, and the R5 has very effective IBIS, excellent AF tracking, subject recognition, and face/eye tracking, which is purportedly easy to navigate.  For sports, the R5 has a much higher frame rate, especially using the E shutter.  Having used an EVF for 11 years, I am quite comfortable with it and would not go back to an OVF.  The R5 has 5.7 M-dot EVF compared to the 2.3M-dot EVF I currently use, so I don't think it would be an issue for me.  It is also nice not having to worry about AF sensor calibration issues.

It is possible you may not need all this capability, but for me, excellent AF tracking alone would help keep up with grandchildren running around.  And with my lowly Olympus EM-5 iii, I will occasionally shoot at frame rates in excess of what a 5D mk iv can do.  The good news is that much of this capability has been incorporated into entry level cameras, like the R10 and R100.

[hjoseph7]

4 hours ago, Ken Katz said:

The 5D mk iv is a great camera, but if money is not a factor (rarely of course), in 2023 there is no way I would not go with an R5.  Sensor performance and resolution is significantly improved, and the R5 has very effective IBIS, excellent AF tracking, subject recognition, and face/eye tracking, which is purportedly easy to navigate.  For sports, the R5 has a much higher frame rate, especially using the E shutter.  Having used an EVF for 11 years, I am quite comfortable with it and would not go back to an OVF.  The R5 has 5.7 M-dot EVF compared to the 2.3M-dot EVF I currently use, so I don't think it would be an issue for me.  It is also nice not having to worry about AF sensor calibration issues.

It is possible you may not need all this capability, but for me, excellent AF tracking alone would help keep up with grandchildren running around.  And with my lowly Olympus EM-5 iii, I will occasionally shoot at frame rates in excess of what a 5D mk iv can do.  The good news is that much of this capability has been incorporated into entry level cameras, like the R10 and R100.

A few months ago, I shot a wedding and my second photographer blew some of my pictures away with an  Canon R10 and a cheap Canon lens.  Meanwhile, I was taking pictures with a canon 6D and 'L' series lenses. The R10 had way more dynamic range and seemed to focus better that my 6D I have to admit. However, it did  not take into account other photographic skills, such as composition and timing. 

[AJG]

28 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said:

A few months ago, I shot a wedding and my second photographer blew some of my pictures away with an  Canon R10 and a cheap Canon lens.  Meanwhile, I was taking pictures with a canon 6D and 'L' series lenses. The R10 had way more dynamic range and seemed to focus better that my 6D I have to admit. However, it did  not take into account other photographic skills, such as composition and timing. 

Yes, equipment is important, but the photographer is more important.  When film was the only option I shot a lot of work for one client that involved live animals from squirrel monkeys to dogs, cats, iguanas, roosters and many others that I don't remember at this point.  All of these were successfully shot on 4x5 transparency film with a monorail Toyo view camera, which makes a Canon 5 D look like an absolute speed demon.  Would it be easier now with recent DSLRs or mirrorless?  Of course.

[mikemorrellNL]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:26 PM, hjoseph7 said:

A few months ago, I shot a wedding and my second photographer blew some of my pictures away with an  Canon R10 and a cheap Canon lens.  Meanwhile, I was taking pictures with a canon 6D and 'L' series lenses. The R10 had way more dynamic range and seemed to focus better that my 6D I have to admit. However, it did  not take into account other photographic skills, such as composition and timing. 

What an interesting comment and comparison - many thanks for these!  I've happily used a 6D for many years (with 'L' lenses).  One of the main reasons I decided to 'upgrade' to a 5D mk iv was that while 'fixing' the main 'mode' dial on the 6D, I broke it. Too much glue 😔. It was still very usable - especially as I almost always shoot in AP mode. But I still needed to manually check through the viewfinder and by twiddling other dials that I was in the right 'mode'. After a year or two, I came across an attractively priced 2nd hand 5D mk iv and went for it.
I don't know a whole lot about 'dynamic range' (on the 6D or R10). Pretty much all my (voluntary) photos are published digitally. So I assumed that the 'perceived dynamic range' was largely determined by the devices on which photos were viewed.

Your comment prompted me to start googling and I came across this comparison between the R10 and 6D.  Yes, these are only specs and don't necessarily translate into differences in image quality. Especially as the R10 sensor is APS and the 6D FF. But I immediately noticed a couple of major differences:

- the R10 has 651 focus points vs 11 on the 6D

- the image processor is more modern than on the 6D

- the in-camera focus-stacking (and focus bracketing) in the R10 give more DR and depth to photos (which the 6D doesn't have)

The improved specs in themselves don't mean much to me. But together with your comment and comparison, I can understand where some of the differences lie.

I, @AJG and think most others here would agree that that good photographic skills are much more important than equipment.

However, I would also argue that any (amateur/professional) photographer doing a 'professional job' should ideally have the right equipment for the job.

Completely separate from the above comments, I think your decision to recruit a 'second photographer' for the wedding is a testament to your professionalism!

 

Mike