What color is your black and white? Why?

[Julie H]

[thank you for all of the above ... and please continue if you wish ... I shall add another ingredient for consideration ... ]

 

Cinematography

 

This is James Agee writing about actor/director John Huston. Notice in particular the descriptions of lighting (tone):

 

" … Each of Huston's pictures has a visual tone and style of its own, dictated to his camera by the story’s essential content and spirit. In

Treasure

[

of the Sierra Madre

] the camera is generally static and at a middle distance from the action (as Huston says, “It’s impersonal, it just looks on and lets them stew in their own juice”); the composition is — superficially — informal, the light cruel and clean, like noon sun on quartz and bone. Most of the action in

Key Largo

takes place inside a small Florida hotel. The problems are to convey heat, suspense, enclosedness, the illusion of some eighteen hours of continuous action in two hours’ playing time, with only one time lapse. The lighting is stickily fungoid. The camera is sneakily “personal”; working close and in almost continuous motion, it enlarges the ambiguous suspensefulness of almost every human move. In [

We Were

]

Strangers

the main pressures are inside a home and beneath it, where conspirators dig a tunnel. Here Huston’s chief keys are lighting contrasts. Underground the players move in and out of shadow like trout; upstairs the light is mainly the luminous pallor of marble without sunlight: a cemetery, a bank interior, a great outdoor staircase."

 

Lighting to content was mentioned by several people at the top of the thread. I think cinematography is a little different in that it goes to the scene before, behind, under, as the water that the content swims in, rather than going to the content itself.

[Julie H]

Here's a flyer I'm thinking about:

 

One other aspect of tone. It's in the bleed that we see it. By that I mean, the whites and the blacks are not primarily where we see the color/tone: it's in the bleed around objects, particularly the less sharp edges. As a compositor, I spend a lot of my time working with edges and photographic object-edges are very characteristic (and they drive me crazy ... ). Stay with me, I'm getting to a point ...

 

At what point does a blank piece of paper become a photograph and how? Where/when does genesis happen to that paper and make it come alive? I think we cue on the bleed, and I think, having cued ("this is a photograph") we read the picture photographically with all the connotations and powers that being a photograph endows it with.

 

Tone/color spreads the bleed, accentuates it, uses it.

 

... and that's as far as I've gotten, thinking about this ...

 

Back to your usual programming ...

[Norman 202]

Apart from Brad's fine photo (which on my iphone looks neutral) none of the pics here that illustrate tone have any people in them. do any of you tone your people pics?

[Norman 202]

i've just looked at google's interpretation of "famous black and white portrait photographs" and none of them look toned (at least to my untrained eye on my uncalibrated iphone). am i missing something here? are there any such photos with a noticeable tone?

[Supriyo]

i've just looked at google's interpretation of "famous black and white portrait photographs" and none of them look toned (at least to my untrained eye on my uncalibrated iphone). am i missing something here? are there any such photos with a noticeable tone?

 

http://monovisions.com/10-famous-female-black-and-white-photographers/

 

The one by Dorothea Lange shows a noticeable warm tone.

[Norman 202]

thanks Supriyo.

[Norma Desmond]

Be careful about judging tone from images on the Internet. Many that I've come across have been toned for Internet display but were either not toned or less toned to begin with. Google "steichen portrait of matisse", for example. You'll find differently toned instances of the very same photo.

[Norman 202]

there's quite a difference isn't there.does the print version of Lange's photo have a warm tone?

[Norma Desmond]

Don't know, Norman.

[Supriyo]

thanks Supriyo.

 

Ref: Fred's comment:

I wouldn't say, it didn't cross my mind when I posted the link, since it's so easy to recolor a photo digitally. So after seeing Fred's post, I went back and found the same photo on the internet in neutral tone. So I have to take that link back.

 

I vaguely remember seeing some tinted portraits in the photographic gallery at the Getty Musem. Also, many calotype and ambrotype portraits from the 19th century look tinted. Not sure if it's the result of aging or deliberately toned.

[Norman 202]

thanks Phil, those Corbijn's pics are great but the blue toned image is what I was hoping to see.

[Julie H]

Scattered bits from Ansel Adams:

 

"Photographic papers are made in a fairly wide range of colors: Cold White (white with a slightly bluish cast), Natural White (white with a very slight ivory cast), Ivory White, Cream, and Buff."

 

"Print Color: This is a property of both emulsion and paper base, and is modified by the development, and still further modified by toning. Some paper emulsions are basically "cold-toned," some are "warm-tones," and there are many steps between. Convira, for instance, is listed as having a cold blue-black tone, Cykora, as yielding a warm tone. Developer formulas are designed to favor warm or cold tones; the warmest tones are naturally obtained by using a warm-tone developer on a warm-tone paper.

 

"The tones and colors that have become more or less standard in photography are seldom attractive to me, in themselves. I know of no modern paper on which the superb tones of platinum or carbon images can be even approached without careful selection of developer and subsequent toning. The olive-green black of many "warm-toned" papers does not, in my opinion, enhance the brilliance and richness of the silver image."

 

"To sum up my personal preferences in the physical qualities of papers: I use double-weight papers of neutral or cool emulsion color on a cold white stock, in the glossy (but unferrotyped) finish. I work for a cool purple-black image by using a cold-toned developer and a slight toning in selenium."

 

"Ilford Gallerie: This is a paper of very high quality which I use extensively. It is available in four grades. To begin with, Gallerie has a rather warm and slightly greenish color, but it tones differently from any other paper I have used. A few minutes in selenium toner changes the color to neutral. Thereafter it does not change ..."

 

"Kodak papers: I have used Kodak papers for decades with very good results. I have found that Kodabromide Grade 4 tones very well in selenium, but the other grades do not. Other Kodak papers, especially Azo, tone very well. I have had excellent results with Polycontrast in prints for reproduction. However, it does not tone in selenium as I would like; the two emulsions required for variable contrast tone differently, giving a good tone to the middle and low values and little, if any, tone in the high values. The result is a "split-tone" effect that I find unpleasant."

 

"Amidol [developer]: This is a long-used developing agent popular with some photographers; it produces rich and slightly cold black tones. It can be highly diluted to give very soft images if desired, while maintaining reasonably consistent print color. In the past I have used an amidol formula diluted with up to 20 or more parts of water, and achieved prints of beautiful tone from extremely constrasty negatives."

 

*************************************************

 

Next is from Fred Picker:

 

"I like Ilfabrome No. 2 for certain subjects that will benefit from its warm tone. It gives an impression of depth and dimension to the subject, and creates an atmosphere of space when developed four minutes or more in Dektol 1:2. This dimensional quality is not nearly as apparent when development is for the usual two minutes.

 

"Varigam is colder in tone and has a different emotional quality. This paper has clarity and separation characteristics that work well with architectural, strong light and shadow effects, and portraits in open shade. This paper is brilliant. It has the advantage of being variable contrast, so a No. 1 grade print will match a No. 4 grade print in color and surface.

 

"Many graded papers will show different range and color characteristics for the different grades. Kodabromide No. 2 will not show a clean black, nor will it respond well to toning, but the No. 3 and No. 4 will tone and have black capability. These papers are flatter, less brilliant than Varigam, but work well with some negatives."

[Supriyo]

Next is from Fred Picker:

 

Its interesting how Ansel limited his discussion to the technical aspects without expanding on which tone he prefers under what scenarios and why. I found Fred Picker to be more relevant in that respect. One point: he finds warm tones to create depth and dimension, but he didn't say what emotional aspects colder tones bring out. He went a little in that direction when he said the varigam paper has good clarity and separation (contrast?).

 

This just strikes me because, in audio equipments like headphones, a warm musical sound (enhanced low and low-mid frequencies) is considered emotional with more depth and less forgiving to fine details and noise, whereas analytical sound (equal proportions of low, mid and high frequencies) is often considered less emotional, more dry with enriched details and clarity. This again seem to suggest a connection between how we emotionally react to stimuli from different senses, warm/emotional: low frequency light waves/ sound waves, vs detailed analytical: higher frequency waves.

[DavidTriplett]

I would love to see a discussion of how this issue relates to what I am doing today in digital. How do I obtain the same, intentional outcomes that Julie's quotes talk about, but in the modern, digital environment? What choices can we make and technical applications to achieve the same artistic effects as Adams or Picker obtained with negatives, chemicals, paper, and emulsion in the darkroom?

[Supriyo]

I would love to see a discussion of how this issue relates to what I am doing today in digital. How do I obtain the same, intentional outcomes that Julie's quotes talk about, but in the modern, digital environment? What choices can we make and technical applications to achieve the same artistic effects as Adams or Picker obtained with negatives, chemicals, paper, and emulsion in the darkroom?

 

David,

Silver efex (the free software from Nick/Google) has a lot of options for toning including many presets. I seldom apply toning, but those options produce somewhat realistic effects on screen. A part of the equation in my opinion is the paper and effect of printer ink on the paper and reaction to light. For example, the ilford gallerie paper that Ansel mentions, has a modern version available that works with inkjet photo printers.

[Norma Desmond]

David, I haven't read the quotes, but I'll try to respond to your question as you've posed it. Things that can individualize and affect our screen images are the background colors we show them on, whether we put some sort of matt color behind them and a frame or keyline around them, our black and whites can be toned or not and to varying degrees. With subtle uses of sharpening tools, contrast application, even some of the textural filters available, we can infuse our images with a sense of texture without it feeling like a gimmick and without it feeling more exaggerated than the way a print can provide texture. Of course, if we're printing from digital files, we can do a lot more things.

 

For me, a key to thinking about this stuff is not necessarily to try to mimic what past greats could do with very different processes and technologies. I keep in mind that they were discovering what their given technology could provide them with when they got creative about it. Rather than, for example, trying to mimic the grain of various processes and films of the past, consider what's unique about digital and be creative with that. That might include using digital noise without trying to imitate grain, using pixel distortion, pixellation, using the halos we often get around sharply-contrasted edges, using some of the technical distortions we're all used to seeing in digital imagery, and using them in such a way that it feels native to the process rather than like a mistake or a clumsy overreach. [Not saying don't overreach sometimes, just don't be too clumsy about it. ;-)]

[Norman 202]

"Photographic papers are made in a fairly wide range of colors: Cold White (white with a slightly bluish cast), Natural White (white with a very slight ivory cast), Ivory White, Cream, and Buff."

 

a fairly wide range! is it any wonder nobody prints anymore with such a paucity of choice?

[Julie H]

If you know Photoshop, there are so many ways to tinker with tone, I won't even try to cover them. In addition, there are the obvious choices of paper (color, texture, finish) and inks plus color management. Or you can use a really good professional printer who will listen to you and do the tinkering for you. For example, watch the video on the left side of the landing page at Griffin Editions. Behind the discussions, which do not address tone specifically, you can see black and white prints of many different tones.

 

Or you can use digital for explicitly expressive comments on black and white. Here is Pieter Hugo in There's a Place in Hell for Me & My Friends:

 

"Greetings dear Friend and Photographic Subject

 

"Herewith an edit of my portrait series. The subjects are all friends of mine who are either from South Africa or have made this country their home."

 

[ ... ]

 

"A brief description of what I have done to the images:

 

"The color process used in making these pictures involves turning the digital color image to black and white, while keeping the color channels active. In this manner one can manipulate the color channels and bring certain colors to prominence as greyscales. The red and yellow color channels were darkened to the point where nearly all information for these colors was rendered as blacks and dark grey. The pigment responsible for skin color and appearance, melanin, which appears in two forms — pheomelanin (red) and eumelanin (very dark brown) — is brought to prominence in this color process. As a result of exposure to UV rays the skin produces melanin to protect nuclear DNA from mutations caused by the sun's ionizing radiation. The damage to people's skin caused by exposure to UV is thus shown up in their skin, along with capillaries and small blood vessels visible just under the skin."

[g_richards]

It really depends upon the image. Sometimes I prefer just the regular classic

black and white look, while sometimes the image begs to be in sepia. Other images I like slightly toned. And, sometimes I like them with a background texture that makes them feel vintage, etc. There is no one answer for me.

GR

[Supriyo]

I prefer a slight warm tone in most of my images, which are a combination of film scans and digital. I revisited and re-edited many of my older images to dial back on some of the processing ( not because of any toning ). The processing should and could play a part in the overall feel and texture of a photographic image but I don't want it to be too much in front of the image or the content. It has to be invisible almost in the sense that the processing should be integrated.

 

Phil,

I share your opinion that the processing should be integrated with the rest of the content and shouldn't stand out. However, in Julie's examples, processing (and paper texture) was presented at the same level of significance as the content, in my opinion. Rather than playing the regular role of enhancing the subject matter, processing here transforms the subject, by changing its texture and even partly obscuring it in some cases.

[Landrum Kelly]

... and what's the difference between this:

 

[ATTACH=full]1180612[/ATTACH]

 

... and this:

 

[ATTACH=full]1180613[/ATTACH]

 

[i know these are crummy pictures: they're used for tone/color comparison only.]

 

 

[i know these are crummy pictures: they're used for tone/color comparison only.[/indent]

 

No, they are fine art! Seriously, Julie, they really aren't bad at all, regardless of your intent in taking and processing them. I might desaturate them by twenty-five to thirty-five percent, but that is a personal preference. When toning is used, I typically prefer for it to be muted.

 

--Lannie

Edited April 2, 2017 by Landrum Kelly

[Julie H]

Its essense is plasmic, and its passion is for immanence, not transcendence. "It has no satisfying stability," Lawrence says, "satisfying to those who like the immutable.

 

 

I wish Di Piero had elaborated on that because I think it doesn't make clear what I think is the larger difference between Frank and, for example Weston and Adams. It's my belief that for Frank, photography is performance. It's the doing, not what's made.

 

Consider the writer Shakespeare, the actor Olivier and the play Othello. For Frank, there is no Shakespeare. Life is the Shakespeare. He's Olivier and he doesn't want to be trapped into playing Othello for the rest of his life (Olivier as Othello does New York; Olivier as Othello does Canada, etc.) He wants to be Olivier murdering Dustin Hoffman, too (or any of the other great roles inhabited by Olivier); in whatever case, it's about the generation and what is revealed by the performance of "photography." When he moved to filmmaking, he wanted to shoot (and sometimes did) without a script.

 

" “The photograph must be the result of a head to head,” Frank later asserted, “a confrontation with a power, a force that one interrogates or questions.” Like reality, sometimes those confrontations were decisive and emphatic, but often, as in the photograph of the baby on the floor of the Beaufort cafe, they remain unresolved, uncertain, and filled with questions more than answers." —

Sarah Greenough

 

"In

Black White and Things

, he succeeded in creating a work of art that was not about experience but was the experience itself." —

Sarah Greenough

 

 

By contrast, Weston and Adams, IMO, are Shakespeares, shaping and making, with the Olivier and Othello being fulfilled in the nuances of the print. Yes, you can always tell that it's Shakespeare (they have an overwhelming style). That's as it should be. They aren't performing: they are being what they are, making and shaping what they believe to be insights or "the essence of the essence" to quote Adams.

 

I don't think Frank gave a s*** about the print. He abused it, shot it with a gun (after finishing the Americans), scratched it, wrote all over it. I've never read anything about how he makes his prints (though he has made pictures of stuff in the developing trays), but I can't imagine him sweating about the nuances of tonal separation or color. Compare that to Adams:

 

"I have not yet made a print that fully satisfies me. The negative prints fairly well on Ilford Gallerie Grade 3, but while it is about as good a negative as I could have expected in terms of holding all values, I nevertheless find it very difficult to make an expressive print. Merely preserving the values results in a rather flat image, lacking in the mood and tonalities I visualized. It is a subject that might be better revealed by use of a warm-toned paper such as Agfa Portriga. With other negatives intransigent printing problems have been overcome by discovering the optimum paper, developer, and toning combination, and much depends upon the mood of the photographer." —

Ansel Adams writing about printing

Merced River, Cliffs, Autumn

[Norman 202]

I don't think Frank gave a s*** about the print

 

Sid Kaplan: Legendary Darkroom Printer and Quiet Master Photographer

[Norman 202]

And the new 2008 edition published by Steidl offers perhaps the best printing yet, with all new tri-tone scans of the original prints, printed on top quality paper

 

The Americans - Photographs by Robert Frank | LensCulture

 

All new Tri-tone? Done in the best possible taste no doubt

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Norman 202

[Julie H]

its physicality

 

 

His physicality. I think he wanted to be in the print; for the print to bring him, carry him, not be anything independent of him.