Finding my place in photography?

[sam_rainer]

<p>Hello all,<br>

I am new to the forum, although not new to photography which has been in and out of my life for 20 years now. I studied Fine Art Photography at Art School for 4 years in the UK and that is what my degree is in. This was in the late 90's it was all film photography there 35mm, Medium and large format, wet printing and so on. Digital was only just coming in and not available in my School except for a little prehistoric photoshop class we did in the final year.<br>

After graduating I moved pretty quickly into Cinematography, shooting short films and documentries on 16mm as well as a bit of assisting on features. I did enjoy shooting and lighting on the smaller films and it was creative work but a couple of years in and film was being edged out it was too expensive and people just were not prepared to pay for it. I did do my best to get into shooting on digital but these were generally low budget shorts and this was in the days before video on DSLRs. I apart from a couple of more experimental shoots I hated it. I was also begining to dislike working as an assistant and I didn't like the outlook for my career in the film industry. I did still shoot after that but only on 16mm film projects mainly for artists rather than filmmakers and very occasionally I still do, but it wasn't a lot of work.<br>

In the mean time I worked as an artists assistant and I went back to do my masters in Fine Art in London. The course was multidisciplinary. It had no film photography facilities so I made the switch to digital and my work mainly comprised of digital photography, printmaking and video art. I did learn a lot about contempory fine art but while I made work I wasn't really feeling my own "art" like I had back during my undergraduate course. I felt like maybe I had been mistaken in thinking I was an artist.<br>

After my course ended I did very little for a while but toyed with a lot of ideas going back into the film industry in one capacity or another, teaching, art therapist but nothing stuck. I was at this stage put under a lot of pressure from my family to use my photography to make money. I did seriously consider it and even did a few portrait jobs which still make me cringe with embarrassment even though my clients were happy. I looked into wedding photography priced kit, worked out what additional skills and experiance I would need, how I could run such a business what it would fully entail. I was at this time under huge pressure from family to go down this route they all thought it would be easy money for me. I on the other hand had huge reservations primarly that I didn't actually want to be a wedding photographer, I don't like weddings, I don't have the people or business skills never mind the learning curve needed to create such a specialised professional product.<br>

I was at a crossroads and really thought long and hard about what to do next. I looked at a lot of photography and my own portfolio over the years and tried to work out what I had really loved the most, what I was most authentic when I was doing (corny I know). Ultimately this resulted in my selling my fancy dslr and buying myself a darkroom, and old fashioned wet darkroom and I now almost exclusively shoot film, mainly B&W on my old 35mm and medium format cameras and process and print my own work. I am not knocking digital but it just didn't engage me the way film does, its a very personal thing no doubt its due to my early experiance and training but for me the whole process of film photography from loading the camera to printing is what forms the basis of my practice. Its what makes me feel connected to my creativity and out of it grows ideas, a thirst for research and growth which has me making the first meaningful work I have done for over ten years. Photography is very important to me and film is my medium but I don't think I ever wanted to be a "professional" photographer. I wanted to be an artist who used photography and of course there is a lot of mutual ground between these two worlds but for me I feel that going down a professional, commercial route would have, and did stand in the way of me developing the personal work that was what I really craved, the pristine image is not my personal ideal.<br>

So I feel like I have come back to something in a profound way, I do think it can be difficult to find your place in photography these days, there were days when I would look at the work of 14 year olds with a canon 5d and weep but photography is also a broad church and if you are true to yourself and your process you can find a place for yourself.</p>

<p>I would love to hear about other photographers struggles and journey's with photography so if you got this far, thank you for reading and please post!</p>

 

[johne37179]

<p>I don't think that struggle ever ends -- at least I hope not. I have been at this for at least 60 years. I spent some of them as an advertising photographer with national and international accounts that afforded me great opportunities to capture images in exotic places around the world. I had the great privilege of meeting and becoming an acquaintance of Ansel Adams (though on our mutual interest in preserving wild spaces). I found out only recently that he retained three of my prints in his personal collection. I, too have university training as a fine artist, but the part that has stuck with me was not the art training but the art history training. I now shoot mostly for my own pleasure, though I do publish and take the odd commission and have several galleries that accept my work. I think the challenge and hopefully it is a bit of a struggle to make it worthwhile, is to find and evolve your vision. Photography for me is all about finding your personal vision and being familiar enough with the bits and pieces of photography that they are enabling and don't interfere with producing your vision.<br>

A brief note on weddings -- I shot one once for an international publication -- once was enough. I have the greatest respect for fine wedding photographers for all the social work and psychology they have to practice to just be able to do good work.<br>

As a long time inhaler of photo chemicals I can say I truly love digital photography. Not only do my lungs and eyes thank me, but digital photography has opened horizons that simply were not available with film, paper and chemicals.<br>

Photography done well is extremely personal. You need to be able express the vision of your soul in your work. It is nice when others share some of it, but that really doesn't matter -- at least at my age. At a younger age it was all about pleasing art directors, creative directors and clients. Now, I only have to please myself -- fortunately, that rarely happens and I can see challenges ahead.</p>

[sam_rainer]

<p>Thank you for your response, yes I entirely agree with your view that the struggle is what drives us and about the truly personal nature of good photography. For me I love film I love its limitations and its surprises that is what inspires me but that is just me, I admire digital photography and still use it at times, however this is not meant to be a film vs digital thing there is room for both I hope and I will continue to shoot film for as long as it is available.</p>

[garypeck]

<p>I've been at it 40+ years myself and re-invented myself numerous times. Now, I shoot what I love - I've heard every one of todays "gurus" preach this and can't deny it's value. To try and please everyone, is to please no one. I gave up the Hassy's and Sinars early on - I miss them - but there's too many opportunities to create fine work in digital. Those who are in it for the money - rearly last very long. Trust you heart and let it lead the way.</p>

[sam_rainer]

<p>Thank you Gary, it really is good to hear from people further down the road than me that being true to yourself is the way to go. Its heartening to hear when many of the people around me think I am crazy for not following the money.</p>

[Rick Helmke]

<p>Sam I have well over 40 years at it myself and I shake my head every time I think of that. My favorite times were doing newspaper work with an F2 and Tri-X and covering mischief murder and mayhem. If I could go back to any one thing it would be that. I've done commercial work, portraits, weddings and who knows what else using all manner of film and digital gear. Like you, digital has never engaged me particularly but it is a useful and necessary tool. Now days I take the occasional job, even a wedding on rare occasion, and shoot what I want the rest of the time. If it sells, fine, If not.....The most recent purchase in fact was an RB67 and some glass for it a few months ago.</p>

<p>Rick H.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>I could write you 50 pages.</p>

<p>But photography is about taking photos not being lost in some weird gear talk.</p>

<p>"I wanted to be an artist who used photography and of course there is a lot of mutual ground between these two worlds"<br>

<br>

Talking and doing. Your choice.</p>

<p> </p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>On the day of battle it is the slender horse .....not the the lumbering ox....that will be of use.</p>

<p>Just a thought. </p>

[SCL]

<p>I think many of us with an artistic bent go thru similar gut wrenching experiences. Long ago I gave up thinking about photography as a money maker, and enjoy it much more after unburdening myself...not that I was ever so highly technically trained in the "dark arts" like you were. Along similar thought lines, although I studied piano with a renowned concert pianist for several years when I was much younger, I never really felt that I got the "hang" of it, my heart felt it but it didn't translate into proper control of my brain, fingers, and upper body muscles. Now, retired, after a career in an entirely different field I really enjoyed, I returned to photography sort of as a "lost love". And it felt good. And, after reading so many stories like yours over the years, am glad that I didn't give in (for too long) to the intense pressure from my family to follow a career for which I was less suited than others. I always counseled my employees, when they became discouraged about either their assignments or their grasp of nuances, that they had a tough decision to make: if they loved their work...get thru the tough situations they encountered until they found their "niche"; if they didn't get up each morning chomping the bit to get to work and tackle the challenges, they needed to consider finding a career they truly loved. IMHO there isn't much worse than being stuck in a "job" you don't really love. I was a lucky one, and that is why I value photography so highly...it gives me freedom and I don't compete for money.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<blockquote>

<p>"But photography is about taking photos not being lost in some weird gear talk."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>And only photographers disparage the preferred medium of other photographers. I can't remember the last time I heard a watercolorist tell an oil painter that oil is inferior because it's smelly and takes too long to dry.</p>

<p>And every craftsman and artist appreciates good tools and despises tools that aren't right for the task.</p>

<hr />

<p>"Those hog bristle brushes are useless, unless all you want is impasto! You need fine sable brushes."<br /> "I'm a sculptor. I just use those for sketches."<br /> "Only amateurs use hog bristle."<br /> "I'm a sculptor. I don't need advice about brushes. I asked for advice about chisels."<br /> "Chisels? You can't paint with chisels!"</p>

<hr />

<blockquote>

<p>"On the day of battle it is the slender horse .....not the the lumbering ox....that will be of use."</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Said no artillery officer, ever.</p>

[MichaelChang]

<blockquote>

<p><em>"many of the people around me think I am crazy for not following the money."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sam, I don't think it's following the money so much as commercialization is probably the only "out" that has a fighting chance of making a living from photography these days.</p>

<p>Following ones passion is usually not an issue unless (lack of) money gets in the way, and those who are hungry enough will put their passion on the back burner and do what they have to in order to eat.</p>

<p>If finance is not a concern, then you are already following your passion, and regardless it's nobody's business but yours on how you choose to live your life. </p>

<p> </p>

[garypeck]

<p>A wise man once said, "If you shoot what you love - the money will follow".</p>

[cyanatic]

<p>Sam -- Thanks for sharing your story. Inspiring in the sense that you found your way back to doing what you love. My "struggle and journey" is almost the opposite of yours. Although I always appreciated photographs -- particularly black and white -- when I was younger, I didn't ever take it up. The occasional family or event snapshot with a brownie or disposable camera, but that was it. I received a BA in Journalism, but was mostly involved in print and broadcast, not the photographic side. A few years after my daughter was born, I decided to buy a digital camera -- a 3mp Olympus P&S. I heard about Flickr, joined, and started posting a few family shots.</p>

<p>After a while, I recalled some of those older B&W photographs that had always fascinated me when I was younger. I started wandering through Flickr and other websites, admiring certain photographs and photographers and wondering how they did what they did. I started reading up on the basics; depth of field, f-stop, shutter speed, rule of thirds, etc. My camera suddenly became something more than just a handy tool to grab a quick family snapshot. I went through a very brief HDR phase. Certain groups I was a member of "frowned upon" (that is putting it mildly) HDR, and I learned to appreciate the subtlety of photographs that required putting in a little more effort, and acquiring a little more knowledge, to understand. Although I read, and purchased, a number of different books on technique, what I really loved to read and look at were books about, or collections of photographs by, people with names like Evans, Arbus, Klein, Callahan, Ishimoto, Frank, and many others. It was like an undiscovered world opening before me. Sounds a bit melodramatic, but that's how it felt. And to a certain extent it still does.</p>

<p>I just turned 60 last March (it is weird to see that in print, I still feel like I'm somewhere in my late 30's) but my photographic "career" or "journey" only really began in earnest in 2006. Because I had no previous experience with film (other than dropping a roll off at the drugstore), I really cut my photographic teeth on digital and the development (or processing) software that often goes with it (for me, primarily Lightroom & Nik software, very rarely Photoshop)</p>

<p>I do make a little money from my photography -- prints and some projects -- but I only take on projects that really interest me. Like you, I am not interested in (and probably not any good at) wedding photography, product photography, etc. I like documentary projects where I have relatively free reign. I do not love photography for the sake of photography or the gear associated with it. I love doing only certain types of photography and the money I occasionally earn from it is just icing on the cake.</p>

<p>I do envy you your background and training in art and photography. I wish I had started much earlier than I did. But things are what they are. I think one of the advantages of digital is the increased speed at which one can learn and hone one's skills. And I agree with you that this shouldn't turn into another one of those digital v film slugfests. Although I do not have any real film experience, I think I can understand the attraction of it. And if I imagine myself as having spent years developing my own photographs and learning all the craft and nuances that it requires to get a desired result, I'm not so sure how well I would take to digital. But that is only hypothetical.</p>

<p>So my case is a bit reversed from yours. Self taught and started in digital, and yet we each arrived at a somewhat similar place, doing what we love to do, with or without the money.</p>

<p> </p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>In response to Allen, I offer these words of Susan Sontag, who wrote some important things about photography, though the quote below is from her diaries:</p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>"Aphorisms are rogue ideas.</em><br /><br /><em>"Aphorism is aristocratic thinking: this is all the aristocrat is willing to tell you; he thinks you should get it fast, without spelling out all the details. Aphoristic thinking constructs thinking as an obstacle race: the reader is expected to get it fast, and move on. An aphorism is not an argument; it is too well-bred for that.</em><br /><br /><em>"To write aphorisms is to assume a mask — a mask of scorn, of superiority. Which, in one great tradition, conceals (shapes) the aphorist’s secret pursuit of spiritual salvation. The paradoxes of salvation. We know at the end, when the aphorist’s amoral, light point-of-view self-destructs."</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>Also just a thought. </p>

[vrankin]

<p>Hello Sam,<br>

Thank you for writing your opening post to this fascinating thread. I join those envying your background in art and film, and also encourage your present experiences. My career was in pastoral ministry, in a now "old line" denomination. From 1969-2003 I enjoyed many afternoons off at the kitchen sink souping film shot in nature, and then evenings in the basement darkroom making B&W prints. At times people in the communities where I served visited exhibits where I had photos, or bought prints from my boxes at art fairs. I had one solo exhibit on a college campus, and gave an evening talk. It was slightly nerve wracking, but enjoyable. In later years I found a relationship with a magazine photo editor fruitful, and for a time checks appeared in the mail. That too, was good, but never enough to call an income. Later on, I attended a one-day seminar with Jim Brandenburg, an internationally-known photographer whose work I truly love. The room was filled with many aspiring serious amateurs like myself. By the closing hour Jim had shared a lot, and quite transparently, about his own life, profession and soul during his years working on staff for National Geographic. He gave this advice: "Do your photography for the passion and enjoyment, and make your living in some other way. It will be much more rewarding for your photography." It seems to me, very few of us ever get to both enjoy, and make a comfortable living from photography, in any form. I still make images because a few good ones thrill me from time to time. My family and closer friends want me to continue. At sixty-five, I feel fortunate about that. I wish you the best. I hope the way is already underway toward the deeper fulfillment you're seeking in film photography, and toward people who can appreciate it for what it is.</p>

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>Sam, thanks for sharing; I always find it interesting to read as it can help make aware what considerations, ideas and options are behind what drives me to do whatever it is I try to do in photography. Even if your path is pretty diagonal to mine, I think sharing stories as yours is useful. No matter what those who write that we shouldn't write say.</p>

<p>For friends, I did shoot weddings, and it taught me a lot. Indeed not having the people skills, nor the vision/ideas for more posed/formal shots, nor a real deep sense of satisfaction seeing the photos afterwards. I'm glad I tried, the photos weren't too horrible I guess, but it's not my cup of tea. If possible, I will refrain from becoming a professional, simply because I want to be free in my photography - do and try as I please, when I feel like it. I changed one hobby into work, and while I still like the work, it's not a hobby anymore. I do not want that to happen to photography.<br /> Much as Steve, I started in the digital age, without any formal education. I am more and more turning to film (much because I like the older gear, and while I can make a digital file look sufficiently like film, I prefer to respect the original medium used); much is digital though. Since I shoot a lot in the evening/night, digital's low-light performance is a huge plus for my uses. In the end, I care about what comes out mostly, so I am perfectly happy to use both as/when I see fit and enjoy the pros and cons of each a bit.</p>

<p>One thing that I always keep wondering about still is the point of the education. For better or worse, I am slowly finding my voice, finding how I prefer to express myself. To which extend would this have been different if I attended an art school? Would it leave a noticeable influence on me, or would it "merely" accelerate the process of discovering that own voice? But at the time I went to university, I wasn't interested in photography or art at all. Now, with what I know and do now, I'd probably love it, but still.... would it make me end up reaching that "photographic destiny" earlier, better? No idea, and I know, it's quite academic and not practically measurable, but well, it's among those thoughts that creep up when considering whether I've been doing the right things or not. And hence, what I should be doing next. And really, reading how others find their way helps sorting those thoughts as well.</p>

[vrankin]

<p>Good reflections, Wouter. Perhaps we've all come to where we are in the right way, after all. I had many sessions in therapy, over the years. The best therapists always brought it to that. No regrets, in the end.</p>

[sjmurray]

<p>Photography has been in my life since I was a teenager in the 1960’s. I was a music major my first year of college. Then I dropped out and some years later returned to complete a degree in psychology. In-between I went for one course at Brooks Institute of Film and Photography in Santa Barbara, CA. There I discovered medium format and large format, but I also discovered I didn’t want to do studio work, shooting glassware, or portrait studio work. I just wanted to use photography for my own enjoyment. I also did weddings for friends, family events, casual portraits, etc. I had a darkroom in my home for many years and shot all formats in black and white, making my own developers from scratch, and printing my own prints. A few years later I did try some commercial work for a while, but returned to graduate school in counseling. After having kids my photography was limited to family snapshots for many years. In 2004 I dove into digital, purchasing a Nikon D70. I never went back to film. I could see the potential using digital and I embraced it fully, learning photoshop and digital printing. Since then, I have shot a lot of images with series of digital cameras and really enjoy the ability to shoot and process images with such power and so efficiently. I enjoy exploring my creativity more than ever now. I do not miss the darkroom, which I found to be way too time consuming with a busy life of work and family. That’s just my own personal journey. </p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

"hotography is very important to me and film is my medium but I don't think I ever wanted to be a "professional"

photographer. I wanted to be an artist who used photography and of course there is a lot of mutual ground between these

two worlds but for me I feel that going down a professional, commercial route would have, and did stand in the way of me

developing the personal work that was what I really craved, the pristine image is not my personal ideal."

 

Dear Sam,

After years of expensive education and nibbling at the edges of a career in the arts, you have figured out that a career in

in the arts is not for you. I can understand both your attitude and the irritation of those who have supported you over the

years. I suggest you move away from the arts and those people and go do something very different for awhile. Empty

trash bins, see if you can get a job on an offshore oil platform, or something similar. Pierce your expectations of who you

are and what you don't want to.do. Don't try, do.

 

And maybe, if you are lucky, you'll find something to say with your photographs.

[chris_waller]

<p>Somebody once asked Pablo Casals, the famous cellist, why he continued to practise at the age of 90. Casals replied, "Because I think I'm making progress."<br>

I find the same is true for me with photography. After almost 50 years of taking photographs, and 35 years of serious darkroom work, I think I'm actually getting somewhere. I love the darkroom and its now seemingly arcane processes. With 'wet' photography I am engaged in photography in a way that digital photography never can engage me. It is too remote - I need to handle the materials and the chemicals.<br>

<br />The secret is to find your subject, that is, what it is that drives your photography. Constantly I ask myself: What do I want to photograph? Why? What do I want to say about my subject? How will I say it photographically?<br>

A lot of my work is documentary work. I shoot photographs like some people write a diary. My need to record is a mild neurosis which I trace back to my childhood. While on the one hand I look forward to the future, for all its uncertainty, I feel a visceral need to record for posterity.</p>

[sam_rainer]

<p>Thank you everyone for your contributions to this thread its great to hear from others what part photography has played in their life and the sometimes varied roads it has taken them down as well as the words of encouragement.<br>

Ellis, I thank you for your advice I am not sure exactly how you worked out that a career in the arts isn't for me from what I posted. I guess career might be the wrong word as I want to be an Artist rather than a commercial photographer. For example I think your work is excellent but it is also antithesis of the kind of work I want to do myself but I find that when you have the training and the skills in photography that is the kind of work people expect you to do because it is where the well paid work is. I am making a living at the moment doing my Art (which is largely photography based but also includes film, performance, painting and text) I have funding for a book and film project from the Arts Council here in the UK and I sell work though a gallery in London as well as being a visiting lecturer at two art schools but undoubtedly I could make better money as a professional photographer if I were prepared to really put in the work (and I know its hard work) but I don't, it is not where my heart is. I am lucky my partner is sensible and makes good money as an engineer or else I might not have the luxury to go down this path. I guess my point is that as I said before photography is a very broad church and that there is room for everyone from the iphone photographer posting on instagram to professional working for publication to the wet plate collodion artists! Perhaps if you always wanted to be the pro you are then there was no conflict between what you wanted and what other people thought was best for you because most people esteem a high status well paid job. Well I have been there working on feature films and it wasn't right for me but people really don't understand when you walk away from that to do something small and old fashioned and poorly paid. I don't imagine I will ever be a famous artist making mega bucks but I would rather be doing what I am than doing work that is meaningless to me personally.</p>

 

[lynnthomas]

I've always liked photography but didn't really get into it until after digital was in full swing. I enjoy all of the

software programs and exploring that tiny little nugget of creativity buried in me somewhere.

That being said I never wanted to do it professionally, never ever want to do a wedding. Almost did once but I

became very ill and had to back out.

I have struggled greatly to find "my voice, my vision or my direction" and wonder what the hell am I doing? I

like to photograph lots of things which contributes to not getting a clear direction. I keep coming back though

to street photography and street portraits. Of course there were the homeless shots I took. Not to exploit but

to document that part of our society. I realized thought that has been documented plenty and I can't offer

anymore to it. I enjoy competitions and would love it if I could get a gallery to show my work.

Beyond that I'm happy doing it for myself.

 

I have friends of course who see something of mine they like and automatically (bless their hearts) think that

I'm really good and should "do more" They don't realize the work/energy/effort it takes. My brother in law has

opened his own photography studio in a small town and does the family portraits, ball games, etc. I think if I

had to that for a living I would hate it. My photography is strictly for me, my happy place and if I had to do it for

work I would lose something of myself so I vowed never to go down that road.

 

Good for you that you stuck to your guns and followed your own path. It's the only way I think.

[johne37179]

<p>This is a great thread and I hope it can be kept alive and more will respond. Photography has contributed greatly to my enjoyment of life. First of all it has made me a much better observer of life. Learning to "see" as a photographer (coupled with having learned to "see" as a geologist as an undergrad) makes many things available to me that others simply walk past without ever noticing. If you never shared an image the process of "seeing" them is very enriching.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"Said no artillery officer, ever." Lex.</p>

<p>Maybe,, but the moguls easily wiped out the lumbering knights of heavy artillery. Only really challenged and stopped by Islam using the same tactics. Another thought you might be talking a different language and praying to a different God; only a little slip in history. Just another thought think about air superiority.</p>

<p>"Aphorism is aristocratic thinking" Fred.</p>

<p>So say the Guru of those who believe in a convoluted banality.</p>

<p>Superiority only comes from those who are well fed. The rest are just hungry which are a third of us..</p>

<p>There another thought.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>"Aphorism"<br>

<br>

Challenges the mind much the same as a photograph challenges the imagination.<br>

<br>

The wise man is he who does today what fools will do three days later.</p>