25% failure rate with 5DMk2's in Antarctica

[photos of hans koot]

<p>Just face it. It is dissapointing that only some cameras can stand different environmental conditions, especially wet. It is my personal opinion that semi pro and pro camera's at least should be able to, at least to a reasonable extent. This kind of use at this level is therefore normal in my eyes. Heavy use in different conditions should be expected when manufacturing. By the by, I seriously doubt if the cameras were abused as suggested here, maybe just a certain kind of ruggedness was expected by the users, and not without any ground.</p>

<p>lets lobby for more 'outdoor' cameras? I think these forums can be quite effective :-)</p>

[DickArnold]

<p>I investigated aircraft accidents. We refrained from speculating and it sometimes took a year or two to come to conclusions after we were assured we had attained all the facts that were available. Only the press speculates. We didn't in most cases and paid a price when we did. All that's available above is the empirical evidence of failure. There is no cause and effect analysis and not much fact gathering. Arriving at conclusions with such a paucity of facts is pure speculation masked as expert and not so expert opinion. The worst is analysis based upon anecdotal evidence.</p>

[yannik_hay]

<p>Hi Steven, I haven't read every one's comment, I read 'till Colin Carron. I agree with Colin. I have the 5DII since the 12th of december and I absolutely love this camera, I had the 5D before and traded it for the 5D mark II.<br />I had no problems what so ever and I shot under -40 celsius degrees in january, we had cold records for several days and I took these photos and I had no problems at all:<br /><a href="../photo/8538711">http://www.photo.net/photo/8538711</a><br /><a href="../photo/8538572">http://www.photo.net/photo/8538572</a><br />and this one was taken at -25 degrees Celsius:<br /><a href="../photo/8560549">http://www.photo.net/photo/8560549</a><br />These people wrote the article probably to blast Canon.<br />And yes the 5DII is weather sealed, maybe not as much as the 1D but much more then the 5D. You should read this on DP review and by the way, read the whole review: <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/">http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canoneos5dmarkii/</a> it is the best sites for camera reviews.</p>

<h4>"Construction and environmental seals</h4>

<p>As you can see from the first image below the body is made up of three pieces of magnesium, the only plastic elements being sides and the base. With the advent of the Mark II Canon are finally talking about the dust / water resistance of the body, the second image below shows these seals, Canon's description: "The battery compartment, memory card door, LCD and the camera buttons are all fitted with sealing materials (indicated in red). In addition the adoption of high precision <a href="http://a.img-dpreview.com/previews/CanonEOS5DMarkII/Images/splitlevelalignment.jpg" target="5dmkii">split-level alignment</a> of the magnesium-alloy external covers, high precision dial construction and external rubber grip covers (indicated in green), has improved the camera's dust and water resistance."<br />And David Ziser was very thrilled by this camera <a href="http://digitalprotalk.blogspot.com/2008/11/its-revelations-monday-8-hours-with.html">http://digitalprotalk.blogspot.com/2008/11/its-revelations-monday-8-hours-with.html</a><br>

<br />My opinion is that there will always be detractors you must take lightly some of the things that people right or say. My personal experience is very happily conclusive.<br />Hope this helps.</p>

[steven_moseley1]

<p>For an outsider looking in, this thread is sooooo amusing....so many people getting so worked up.</p>

<p>Some electronic devices fail to work in the Antarctic...are you REALLY surprised? How many users in this thread are taking their gear anywhere near these extreme conditions..ever?....do you really base you buying habits on extreme 'tests' like this?......If you really want robust gear for these conditions...avoid electronics....buy a Nikon F2 or Canon F1....</p>

[daniel_flounders]

<p>Whether I had a top of the range Nikon, Canon, Pentax or anything else, I would always protect it from the enviromental conditions as best I could. Regardless of what the manual says, surely it's common sense?<br>

Salt water / moisture is the worst thing in the world when it comes to electronics!<br>

I think the users of those cameras just took a camera somewhere they shouldn't.</p>

[daniel_flounders]

<p>Furthermore, LCD screens can break easily anytime without any abuse or user intervention.<br>

I once witnessed a 2" LCD screen crack in a Mobile Phone which was only a couple of days old and sat on a shelf at the time. No one had used it other than unpacking it and it was fine when opened.<br>

A bad pressure point in the casing perhaps? or maybe a faulty LCD, who knows, who cares!</p>

[liquidstereo]

<p>I love the the "one lousy, unscientific article" bit. Good grief. And please try to not turn this into a Canon vs. anything else discussion.<br>

Cheers! Let's recap.<br>

(1) The article is not about reliability. Its one part in a series documenting a trip to Antarctica and the photographic experience. It began with the author's positive impression of the Sony A900.<br>

(2) It is not a scientific study.<br>

(3) The cameras were not particularly abused. <br>

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=3aa32eeb139568d6c09ad5575aa85226&showtopic=31851&st=20<br>

The top of this page documents a 5D2 failure<br>

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31851&st=40</p>

[squareframe]

<p>I have it on very good authority, that though the Canon failure rate was indeed higher, the Canon images were 54% better in terms of lighting, exposure, composition, and creative design (forethought).</p>

<p>daniel taylor</p>

 

[lester_wareham]

<p>"On a broader note, I think it's time for someone to create a suite of standard tests and ratings for SLRs when it comes to water and weather resistance, and for the manufacturers to use the standard"<br>

The IP rating for consumer equipment covers water and dust resistance. I have always found it significant that neither Canon or Nikon work to these standards which are used widely for other electronic kit that needs weather resistance. <a href="http://www.zen20934.zen.co.uk/photography/Weather%20Protection.htm">http://www.zen20934.zen.co.uk/photography/Weather%20Protection.htm</a><br>

But as noted, LL have a poor record of flash conclusions in this area so I would not worry too much.</p>

 

[ellis_vener_photography]

<p>Daniel Taylor,<br>

LoL!</p>

<p>Daniel Flounders,<br>

I guess protective hoods to protect against rain spray aren't good enough protection. Clearly the only thing that would offer enough protection in this situation would have been a Pelican case that was left closed and locked inside the ship's cabin.</p>

[manuelgonzalezvinas1]

<p>I really don't believe the landscape.com review, i've been using a 350d in new zealand, where it rains every day, and i only had problems when a high wave came into my vessel and wet my camera, but it only last a couple of hours(even for that time i could continue shooting in completly manual mode without lack of image quality), and followed working properly during the rest of travell. And what it's more, i took the 350d with me to Botswana, where dust, extremely teperatures (very hot during the day and very cold at nights) it's a fact, and i hadn`t had any problem. So i think that with a camera like 5dmII there shouldn't be any of those incovenients.</p>

 

[osfania]

<p>Daniel Taylor,</p>

<p>How can a photo be 54% better than another? Just need a clarification.</p>

<p>thanks,<br>

Mark</p>

[yuri_huta]

<p>In mid-2005 on a trip from pole to pole (Arctic to Antarctic), photographers shooting with full frame DSLR experienced a similar failure rate (Canon had a 23% failure rate). Nikon did not experience any failures - none, zero, nada. Buy Nikon.</p>

<p>Yeah, yeah, no Nikon Full frame DSLR in 2005, but hey, no failures. Also, no trip, no photographers. No sense in debating anecdotal evidence.</p>

[starvy]

<p>what a long thread! why are canon users always trying to put nikon down and vice versa? why can't we just accept each other's differences and move on. both these manufacturers make adequately good cameras.</p>

[yuri_huta]

<p>This is all akin to my friends (male) debating amongst themselves about movie actresses and steadfastly refusing to consider having (hypothetical) intimate encounters with this one or that one based on tabloid headlines espousing their qualities or lack thereof. The realm of hypothetical situations whether realized or not is a realm some often like to ensconce themselves in with their hypothetical money. You just won't find me there. Just as you would never find me trekking up Everest (without supplemental oxygen I might add) with my trio of original Nikon SPs slung around my neck... everyone knows Minolta CLEs would fare better.</p>

[yuri_huta]

<blockquote>

<p>Starvy, it just happens that some manufacturers have cameras that are more adequately good than others.</p>

</blockquote>

[mattb1]

<p >For those that claim that the people who say that the users should have been using a 1D camera, please read the report from their previous Arctic trip. Six 1Ds mark II Canons died and at least one 5D. So please keep your condescending comments to your self. </p>

<p ><a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml">http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml</a></p>

<p > </p>

<p >I wholly agree that there could be a problem with the 5D mark II, it seems to center around the shutter release so far. Maybe there is a flaw, and if so I would expect a recall on the issue. However, I think we need to complain very strenuously for a recall. On the positive side, they recently did have a recall for the 5D which is a 3 year old camera that is no longer listed on their web site. So, hopefully with enough noise on the issue it will get fixed quickly.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >In the interim, I still have a good rain hood and will use it. But, I’m hardly in the rain and the only salt water is about 600 miles away in Utah. So, I’m not too worried. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Nikons are great, and on both the trips none seemed to have an issue. Which is very good, and is a great selling point. However, there was a failure of a lens, so not perfect. If Canon does not address this issue I could see a lot of people taking this into consideration when they make a decision on what camera to buy. In a couple of years I could see going back to Nikon myself, but right now I’ll probably stick with Canon and hope they do the right thing. Hopefully good competition from Nikon and Sony will force them to do the right thing. </p>

[photos of hans koot]

<p>I wonder for some years already why no manufacturar profiles itself with and as 'outdoor', I think there is a hughe market for that.</p>

[daniel_flounders]

<p><em><strong><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=17942">Ellis Vener</a> </strong> </em><br>

Don't be ridiculous, of course a lens hood isn't enough protection from salt spray! <br>

It doesn't say in the manual, it'll be okay if you use a lens hood does it? So where did that silly idea come from?<br>

You weren't on that trip by any chance were you!<em><strong><br /> </strong> </em></p>

[ellis_vener_photography]

<p>Mr. Flounders,</p>

<p>If you had actually read the L-L thread instead of knee jerkking in your armchair you would see that I wasn't referring to a lens hood and that at least one of the people who had a 5D Mark 2 fail ws using full rain covers on their cameras.</p>

<p>To quote that thread -- http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31851&st=40 :</p>

<blockquote>

<ul>

<li><em>I was using full rain covers on both my 5D and 5DMII, keeping any drops that hit them (you have to look at the histogram somehow) mopped up using a microfiber rag.</em> </li>

<li><em>I was not using grips on either camera, but I did have to break the cameras down to get them back in my camera pack (which went into a waterproof SealLine bag) for travel from the shore to the ship. I did not change lenses while on-land.</em> </li>

<li><em>My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip.</em> </li>

<li><em>Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately).</em> </li>

<li><em>It came back to life for the rest of the trip after air-drying all night with everything open plus two stints with a hair-drier in a pillow case.</em> </li>

<li><em>Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd). I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover.</em> </li>

<li><em>Canon 5DMKII manual page 216: Operating conditions 32F-104F (0C-40C), humidity 80% or less. Page 9 - what to do coming in from the cold. 5D manual says same thing. We were within the operating temperature, above operating humidity. Coming inside some of us violated the "put it in a sealed bag and let it warm up" rule.</em> </li>

</ul>

</blockquote>

[tarashnat]

From the Canon site ( <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=ModelTechSpecsTabAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=11933">5D</a> )

 

<br><br>Operating Environment

<br>Working Temperature Range

<br>32-104&degF/0-40&degC

<br>Working Humidity Range

<br>85% or less

[stephen_asprey2]

<p>Had a phone call from the tech manager from Canon's (and Nikon's) biggest outlet here in Australia. Even before this story got the momentum it has, they have been in discussion on this matter. There now appears to be an unofficial, official position:<br>

1. Canon will not warrant any cameras lower than the 1D series from water and corrosion damage where the Handling/Use caveats in the cameras manuals are ignored.<br>

2. As its not a pro body the weather sealing on the 5DII is only around the main portals (see pic) and definitely not around the shutter release. There will be no change to this until the next model perhaps. A fix is not available.<br>

3. Canon are in the process of instructing dealer sales people to ask a prospective customer if their plans to use the camera do include exposure to extreme bad weather, and suggest that a 1D would be better suited.<br>

I suppose thats all they can do.</p><div></div>

[danielleetaylor]

<ul>

<li><em>My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip.</em> </li>

<li><em>Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately).</em> </li>

</ul>

<p><br /> Once again, we now know enough to conclude that the failures were due to mishandling. <strong>No camera can reliably take internal condensation.</strong> Michael Reichmann posted the failures without the details. Given the details, he shouldn't have bothered to post anything at all. He has created an Internet sensation and myth over nothing but user error. The myth will probably drive some sales to other brands, or to more expensive models, which doesn't really matter that much (except to Canon). But when people make the same stupid mistakes the people on this trip made, and their "weather sealed pro" cameras fail, they will be wondering why.</p>

<ul>

<li><em>Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd).</em> </li>

</ul>

<p><br /> <strong>They got lucky. For now.</strong> I guarantee you internal condensation can and will ruin any camera. If not immediately, then later down the road. I can't believe people with this much money and interest invested into photography don't know how to handle their cameras in weather! As a child with my first camera I was taught better than this! I want Micheal Reichmann to hire me for the next trip so that I can lecture people on proper equipment use and protection in extreme environments. Just to make a point, I'll only shoot with Rebel's and D40's, and plastic "consumer" lenses. And still not have a failure.<br /> <br /> <em>I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover.</em> <br /> <br /> Which, looking at the Canon seals diagram for the 5D mkII, this person probably could have done. Rain didn't kill the camera. Ignorance about proper handling in regard to condensation did.</p>

[14mm 2.8l]

<p>I really wanted to add a 5D Mark II but its non availabilty made me choose to keep using my two 5D & instead added a D700 & 14-24mm 2.8 to my Canon System last month. Now with the hoopla over the "weathersealing" or lack of weathersealing on its shutter release I'm glad I didn't buy one & I will not add a new one either. I think will this alone drive the resale value down on 5DII. No way I would consider buying a used 5DII now either. I'll now wait for 5D Mark III to replace my 5D when Canon decides to really offer a consumer grade full frame thats properly weathersealed, including the shutter release like Nikon did already with D700. </p>

<p>I think Canon over sold the weathersealing 5D Mark II specs. No camera maker provides "Ingress Protection Ratings" on their cameras, yet many claim weathersealing until failure occurs. Then its the owner's loss. </p>

<p> I think Canon would be wise to either delete/modify this statement on the specs sheet in their B&H 5DII marketing ad:</p>

<p>"The magnesium-alloy chassis of the EOS 5D Mark II ensures the durability of the camera so users can take it on safari or to a press junket and be assured that the camera can take it. In addition the camera body incorporates extensive dust and weatherproofing features including seals and gaskets where body panels and/or camera controls meet. To further keep the imaging sensor free from dust, Canon's EOS Integrated Cleaning System uses ultrasonic vibrations to shake dust particles off of the sensor's low-pass filter each time you power up (or manually when needed); this ensures that your images will be spot free and reduces time needed for image retouching".</p>

 

<h1 >Canon EOS 5D Mark II Digital Camera (Camera Body)</h1>

<ul >

<li>21.1 Megapixel Full-Frame Sensor </li>

<li>3.0" High Resolution LCD Display </li>

<li>Live View Mode </li>

<li>1080p Movie Mode </li>

<li>Dust & Weather-Resistant </li>

<li>Self Cleaning Sensor </li>

<li>Broad ISO Range (50-25600) </li>

<li>3.9 fps Burst Mode </li>

</ul>

[ralph_jensen]

<p>Lindy wrote: <strong><em>"I think this alone will drive the resale value down on the 5DII. I'll now wait for the 5D Mark III to replace my 5D...</em> </strong> <strong><em>"</em> </strong></p>

<p>I think you're quite mistaken, but a lot of Canon shooters looking for bargain-basement prices on a 21-megapixel camera are hoping you're right! (By the way, that 5DIII you're going to wait for is probably still a couple of years off [mid-2011?], so enjoy the wait.)</p>

<p>It's been three months since the 5DII started shipping and B&H <strong>still </strong> can't keep it in stock, so I think it'll be a little longer before the resale value plummets--notwithstanding the earth-shattering ramifications of what six photographers in a group of 77 experienced on one trip!</p>

<p> </p>