25% failure rate with 5DMk2's in Antarctica

daniel_flounders · February 9, 2009

Furthermore, LCD screens can break easily anytime without any abuse or user intervention.

I once witnessed a 2" LCD screen crack in a Mobile Phone which was only a couple of days old and sat on a shelf at the time. No one had used it other than unpacking it and it was fine when opened.

A bad pressure point in the casing perhaps? or maybe a faulty LCD, who knows, who cares!

liquidstereo · February 9, 2009

I love the the "one lousy, unscientific article" bit. Good grief. And please try to not turn this into a Canon vs. anything else discussion.

Cheers! Let's recap.

(1) The article is not about reliability. Its one part in a series documenting a trip to Antarctica and the photographic experience. It began with the author's positive impression of the Sony A900.

(2) It is not a scientific study.

(3) The cameras were not particularly abused.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=3aa32eeb139568d6c09ad5575aa85226&showtopic=31851&st=20

The top of this page documents a 5D2 failure

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31851&st=40

squareframe · February 9, 2009

I have it on very good authority, that though the Canon failure rate was indeed higher, the Canon images were 54% better in terms of lighting, exposure, composition, and creative design (forethought).

daniel taylor

lester_wareham · February 9, 2009

"On a broader note, I think it's time for someone to create a suite of standard tests and ratings for SLRs when it comes to water and weather resistance, and for the manufacturers to use the standard"

The IP rating for consumer equipment covers water and dust resistance. I have always found it significant that neither Canon or Nikon work to these standards which are used widely for other electronic kit that needs weather resistance. <a href="http://www.zen20934.zen.co.uk/photography/Weather%20Protection.htm">http://www.zen20934.zen.co.uk/photography/Weather%20Protection.htm</a>

But as noted, LL have a poor record of flash conclusions in this area so I would not worry too much.

ellis_vener_photography · February 9, 2009

Daniel Taylor,

LoL!

Daniel Flounders,

I guess protective hoods to protect against rain spray aren't good enough protection. Clearly the only thing that would offer enough protection in this situation would have been a Pelican case that was left closed and locked inside the ship's cabin.

manuelgonzalezvinas1 · February 9, 2009

I really don't believe the landscape.com review, i've been using a 350d in new zealand, where it rains every day, and i only had problems when a high wave came into my vessel and wet my camera, but it only last a couple of hours(even for that time i could continue shooting in completly manual mode without lack of image quality), and followed working properly during the rest of travell. And what it's more, i took the 350d with me to Botswana, where dust, extremely teperatures (very hot during the day and very cold at nights) it's a fact, and i hadn`t had any problem. So i think that with a camera like 5dmII there shouldn't be any of those incovenients.

osfania · February 9, 2009

Daniel Taylor,

How can a photo be 54% better than another? Just need a clarification.

thanks,

Mark

yuri_huta · February 9, 2009

In mid-2005 on a trip from pole to pole (Arctic to Antarctic), photographers shooting with full frame DSLR experienced a similar failure rate (Canon had a 23% failure rate). Nikon did not experience any failures - none, zero, nada. Buy Nikon.

Yeah, yeah, no Nikon Full frame DSLR in 2005, but hey, no failures. Also, no trip, no photographers. No sense in debating anecdotal evidence.

starvy · February 9, 2009

what a long thread! why are canon users always trying to put nikon down and vice versa? why can't we just accept each other's differences and move on. both these manufacturers make adequately good cameras.

yuri_huta · February 9, 2009

This is all akin to my friends (male) debating amongst themselves about movie actresses and steadfastly refusing to consider having (hypothetical) intimate encounters with this one or that one based on tabloid headlines espousing their qualities or lack thereof. The realm of hypothetical situations whether realized or not is a realm some often like to ensconce themselves in with their hypothetical money. You just won't find me there. Just as you would never find me trekking up Everest (without supplemental oxygen I might add) with my trio of original Nikon SPs slung around my neck... everyone knows Minolta CLEs would fare better.

yuri_huta · February 9, 2009

Starvy, it just happens that some manufacturers have cameras that are more adequately good than others.

</blockquote>

mattb1 · February 9, 2009

For those that claim that the people who say that the users should have been using a 1D camera, please read the report from their previous Arctic trip. Six 1Ds mark II Canons died and at least one 5D. So please keep your condescending comments to your self.

<a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml">http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml</a>

I wholly agree that there could be a problem with the 5D mark II, it seems to center around the shutter release so far. Maybe there is a flaw, and if so I would expect a recall on the issue. However, I think we need to complain very strenuously for a recall. On the positive side, they recently did have a recall for the 5D which is a 3 year old camera that is no longer listed on their web site. So, hopefully with enough noise on the issue it will get fixed quickly.

In the interim, I still have a good rain hood and will use it. But, I’m hardly in the rain and the only salt water is about 600 miles away in Utah. So, I’m not too worried.

Nikons are great, and on both the trips none seemed to have an issue. Which is very good, and is a great selling point. However, there was a failure of a lens, so not perfect. If Canon does not address this issue I could see a lot of people taking this into consideration when they make a decision on what camera to buy. In a couple of years I could see going back to Nikon myself, but right now I’ll probably stick with Canon and hope they do the right thing. Hopefully good competition from Nikon and Sony will force them to do the right thing.

photos of hans koot · February 9, 2009

I wonder for some years already why no manufacturar profiles itself with and as 'outdoor', I think there is a hughe market for that.

daniel_flounders · February 9, 2009

<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=17942">Ellis Vener</a>

Don't be ridiculous, of course a lens hood isn't enough protection from salt spray!

It doesn't say in the manual, it'll be okay if you use a lens hood does it? So where did that silly idea come from?

You weren't on that trip by any chance were you!

ellis_vener_photography · February 9, 2009

Mr. Flounders,

If you had actually read the L-L thread instead of knee jerkking in your armchair you would see that I wasn't referring to a lens hood and that at least one of the people who had a 5D Mark 2 fail ws using full rain covers on their cameras.

To quote that thread -- http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=31851&st=40 :

<ul>

<li>I was using full rain covers on both my 5D and 5DMII, keeping any drops that hit them (you have to look at the histogram somehow) mopped up using a microfiber rag. </li>

<li>I was not using grips on either camera, but I did have to break the cameras down to get them back in my camera pack (which went into a waterproof SealLine bag) for travel from the shore to the ship. I did not change lenses while on-land. </li>

<li>My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip. </li>

<li>Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately). </li>

<li>It came back to life for the rest of the trip after air-drying all night with everything open plus two stints with a hair-drier in a pillow case. </li>

<li>Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd). I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover. </li>

<li>Canon 5DMKII manual page 216: Operating conditions 32F-104F (0C-40C), humidity 80% or less. Page 9 - what to do coming in from the cold. 5D manual says same thing. We were within the operating temperature, above operating humidity. Coming inside some of us violated the "put it in a sealed bag and let it warm up" rule. </li>

</ul>

</blockquote>

tarashnat · February 9, 2009

From the Canon site ( <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=ModelTechSpecsTabAct&fcategoryid=139&modelid=11933">5D</a> )

Operating Environment

Working Temperature Range

32-104&degF/0-40&degC

Working Humidity Range

85% or less

stephen_asprey2 · February 9, 2009

Had a phone call from the tech manager from Canon's (and Nikon's) biggest outlet here in Australia. Even before this story got the momentum it has, they have been in discussion on this matter. There now appears to be an unofficial, official position:

1. Canon will not warrant any cameras lower than the 1D series from water and corrosion damage where the Handling/Use caveats in the cameras manuals are ignored.

2. As its not a pro body the weather sealing on the 5DII is only around the main portals (see pic) and definitely not around the shutter release. There will be no change to this until the next model perhaps. A fix is not available.

3. Canon are in the process of instructing dealer sales people to ask a prospective customer if their plans to use the camera do include exposure to extreme bad weather, and suggest that a 1D would be better suited.

I suppose thats all they can do.<div></div>

danielleetaylor · February 9, 2009

<ul>

<li>My mistake was letting the cool cameras get exposed to the air once I got back on the boat (so that I could charge batteries and download my card). Didn't make the mistake again on the trip. </li>

<li>Both my 5D and 5DMII had condensation inside and out, only the 5DMII had problems (and the problems happened immediately). </li>

</ul>

Once again, we now know enough to conclude that the failures were due to mishandling. No camera can reliably take internal condensation. Michael Reichmann posted the failures without the details. Given the details, he shouldn't have bothered to post anything at all. He has created an Internet sensation and myth over nothing but user error. The myth will probably drive some sales to other brands, or to more expensive models, which doesn't really matter that much (except to Canon). But when people make the same stupid mistakes the people on this trip made, and their "weather sealed pro" cameras fail, they will be wondering why.

<ul>

<li>Lots of other people came back on-board and had their cameras out pretty much at once. Only the Canons seemed to have problems with the resulting condensation (odd). </li>

</ul>

They got lucky. For now. I guarantee you internal condensation can and will ruin any camera. If not immediately, then later down the road. I can't believe people with this much money and interest invested into photography don't know how to handle their cameras in weather! As a child with my first camera I was taught better than this! I want Micheal Reichmann to hire me for the next trip so that I can lecture people on proper equipment use and protection in extreme environments. Just to make a point, I'll only shoot with Rebel's and D40's, and plastic "consumer" lenses. And still not have a failure. I saw many D700 owners shooting in the rain with no cover. Which, looking at the Canon seals diagram for the 5D mkII, this person probably could have done. Rain didn't kill the camera. Ignorance about proper handling in regard to condensation did.

14mm 2.8l · February 9, 2009

I really wanted to add a 5D Mark II but its non availabilty made me choose to keep using my two 5D & instead added a D700 & 14-24mm 2.8 to my Canon System last month. Now with the hoopla over the "weathersealing" or lack of weathersealing on its shutter release I'm glad I didn't buy one & I will not add a new one either. I think will this alone drive the resale value down on 5DII. No way I would consider buying a used 5DII now either. I'll now wait for 5D Mark III to replace my 5D when Canon decides to really offer a consumer grade full frame thats properly weathersealed, including the shutter release like Nikon did already with D700.

I think Canon over sold the weathersealing 5D Mark II specs. No camera maker provides "Ingress Protection Ratings" on their cameras, yet many claim weathersealing until failure occurs. Then its the owner's loss.

I think Canon would be wise to either delete/modify this statement on the specs sheet in their B&H 5DII marketing ad:

"The magnesium-alloy chassis of the EOS 5D Mark II ensures the durability of the camera so users can take it on safari or to a press junket and be assured that the camera can take it. In addition the camera body incorporates extensive dust and weatherproofing features including seals and gaskets where body panels and/or camera controls meet. To further keep the imaging sensor free from dust, Canon's EOS Integrated Cleaning System uses ultrasonic vibrations to shake dust particles off of the sensor's low-pass filter each time you power up (or manually when needed); this ensures that your images will be spot free and reduces time needed for image retouching".

<h1 >Canon EOS 5D Mark II Digital Camera (Camera Body)</h1>

<ul >

<li>21.1 Megapixel Full-Frame Sensor </li>

<li>3.0" High Resolution LCD Display </li>

<li>1080p Movie Mode </li>

<li>Dust & Weather-Resistant </li>

<li>Self Cleaning Sensor </li>

<li>Broad ISO Range (50-25600) </li>

<li>3.9 fps Burst Mode </li>

</ul>

ralph_jensen · February 9, 2009

Lindy wrote: "I think this alone will drive the resale value down on the 5DII. I'll now wait for the 5D Mark III to replace my 5D... "

I think you're quite mistaken, but a lot of Canon shooters looking for bargain-basement prices on a 21-megapixel camera are hoping you're right! (By the way, that 5DIII you're going to wait for is probably still a couple of years off [mid-2011?], so enjoy the wait.)

It's been three months since the 5DII started shipping and B&H still can't keep it in stock, so I think it'll be a little longer before the resale value plummets--notwithstanding the earth-shattering ramifications of what six photographers in a group of 77 experienced on one trip!

keith reeder · February 9, 2009

I live on the NE coast of England and spend a lot of my time on the local beaches.

I routinely use my 40D (and before that, my 30Ds) in pissing-down rain with my non weather-sealed 100-400mm in low temperatures, high winds (which send up the very fine sand and coal dust we've got on our beaches) and salt spray, and I continue to do so , because with some basic care and attention (like tucking the gar into my jacket when things get conditions get really nasty) this kit is pretty tough.

I have no experience of the 5D Mk II but I'm in no doubt whatsoever that this "issue" is about how these cameras have been used rather than evidence of any particular design flaw.

I doubt its a coincidence that two of the six 5D Mk IIs that "failed" were owned by a husband and wife team...

madza_zulu · February 9, 2009

Check this out....this for Nikon trolls and fanboys only...

http://alittlenews.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/shooting-in-the-deep-freeze-packers-nfc-championship-part-ii/

"My photo staff at the Green Bay Press-Gazette was given all brand new Nikon to test out at the game (and possibly the Super Bowl) by Nikon Professional Services. Unfortunately, all the beautiful D3 cameras failed the cold test. Upon kickoff I realized that NEITHER of my D3 camera bodies were working. I had one driving a 400mm lens and the other on my 80-200mm lens. Both cameras starting flashing “err” messages and when they would fire they would fire black images. Some of the images were half-black…similar to when you sync your flash at too high of a shutter speed and part of the shutter curtain casts a shadow on your image"

:-)

keith reeder · February 9, 2009

Bummer!

;0) ;0) ;0)

mirek_elsner1 · February 9, 2009

The explanation with salt water inside seems the most logical. But this gentleman who says he had two 5D2s and they failed almost at the same time, when he used them more or less for the first time on that trip (and only few times in good weather before) - it does not seem like an abuse or salt spray to me. From the description it does not look like water condensation, because he did not bring the camera from cold weather to warm yet. And salt spray? If the claims about the resistance to rain are correct, how does the salty water gets to the contacts during such a short exposure? And how did the salty water get to the 1Ds on the same trip year ago?

The repair service saw corrosion and this was most likely the signal for them not to look into it any further and assume abuse. But what if the corrosion was there from production and was not the primary cause of the failure. Could it be, for example, that specific batch of these cameras had some residual of chemicals used for circuit board etching inside that expedited the corrosion?

I think there is too little facts to draw any reasonable conclusion. For me anyways.

danielleetaylor · February 9, 2009

The repair service saw corrosion and this was most likely the signal for them not to look into it any further and assume abuse. But what if the corrosion was there from production and was not the primary cause of the failure.

What if the corrosion was there from past abuse?

elliot1 · February 9, 2009

Nobody knows what these cameras were subjected to prior to the exact day of the failure.

A few years ago, a Photo.net friend of mine had a couple of D80's fail. It turned out he had very sweaty hands and used canned air to dry off his cameras after using them. This pushed moisture into the camera and over time caused internal corrosion leading to failure.

14mm 2.8l · February 9, 2009

I'll highlight this sentence from my above post in Canon's 5DII specs:

"In addition the camera body incorporates extensive dust and weatherproofing features including seals and gaskets where body panels and/or camera controls meet."

Seems they are overselling the "weatherproofing" claim in the specs.

For me weatherproofing is not a deal killer. I live in a semi arid region so weather proofing isn't a need for me. But if the camera specs continue to say "weatherproof" then some may buy the camera thinking its "weatherproof". I've read of numerous people using 5D in rain without incident. So I am sure my pair of 5D would survive with proper care. And I'd guess my D700 and Pentax K20D survive just fine too. Yet none of them have seen a wet day yet. But its peace of mind I suppose. Maybe Canon should weatherproof the shutter release button on 5DII? I'd think thats a critical component one needs to be able to use in a wet enviroment, no?

ilkka · February 10, 2009

I wish Nikon would bring back a Nikonos D. They already have lenses for it and there sure is demand for a rugged, weather sealed camera system. Looks like even some Canon owners might be tempted.

philip_wilson · February 10, 2009

If Stephen Asprey is correct with his Canon warrenty comments then they need to do more. Around here (the canadian rockies) 0C is not extreme weather - indeed this is a remarkably warm winter day (chinook). If they are not covering there cameras from being outside for 6 months of the year then ther is indeed a problem. The dealers make no mention of this - indeed when I recently bought my 5DII in the Camera store in Calgary I was not informed that by taking it from the store to the car I would lose my warrenty (it was -32C outside). Indeed the dealer explained that it was under warrenty.

Come on Canon -what is your position on this issue. I have used your cameras for almost 30 years. if exposing them to 0C or below invalidates the warrenty then they are unsuitable for sale in Western Canada and you should withdraw the product line. indeed you will probably lose a product liability case over the issue.

photo_dark · February 10, 2009

I'm with Phil... although i've used my 40D, rebel XT, and now 5Dmk2 in Calgary cold (down to -30C in various cases). I seriously doubt that canon is too concerned about this overblown article.

stephen_asprey2 · February 10, 2009

-32C....your laptop and your car would be warranty void too! It was +47C here on the weekend.

Its not that the 5DMk11 is inferior, its that there is misrepresentation. They have a duty of disclosure at the point of sale to point out the caveats on page 12 of the manual. Thats all. After that its caveat emptor. The Antarctic guys should have used a Nikonos.

My personal issue is not temperature or moisture, but in our climate, it's dust.

des adams · February 10, 2009

What I still find bizarre here is this incredible defence of Canon. It's like "hey don't you say anything negative about my Mommy and Daddy, we're so lucky they give us these things, in fact they're spoiling us and we will support them". I think maybe you should ask yourself why you're defending any camera manufacturer. Maybe what you're trying to say is, "hey I spent all this money of course I'm right". Which is wrong. I dunno for sure but I don't recall the same negative responce when the original 5D came out. But the game has changed since the intro of the 5D. See my view is I'm not moaning, I'm Oliver Twist and am asking for, and was expecting, MORE ... And not just in terms of weather seals. Come on guys can you really say, hands on hearts. that for exactly the same price they couldn't have done better.

danielleetaylor · February 10, 2009

indeed when I recently bought my 5DII in the Camera store in Calgary I was not informed that by taking it from the store to the car I would lose my warrenty (it was -32C outside). Canon doesn't even have a way to determine what temperatures your camera was exposed to. Unless, of course, you handed them a melted camera, or a camera with parts split in two from liquid nitrogen submersion. Who said Canon would void a warranty because you carried your camera to your car on a winter day? Canon will not honor the warranty if it's obvious some abuse was involved. If you dunk your camera in a pool to take pictures, consider your warranty void. Guess what? Every other manufacturer has the same exact policy.

michael_macdonald4 · February 10, 2009

This has got to be the worst brand bashing thread I have ever seen. Mr Asprey is a nikon shooter and he appears to be almost fanatical in his persuit to bash canon into the trash heap Well don't believe everything you read folks most of it isn't true.and buy whatever camera you like Michael

danielleetaylor · February 10, 2009

I think maybe you should ask yourself why you're defending any camera manufacturer. Because I think it's absurd that somebody can admit to introducing severe condensation into their camera in Antarctica, resulting in failure, and within a few days not only is the 5D mkII deemed a faulty camera, but Canon is supposedly voiding warranties of people who carried their cameras to cars on cold winter days. This thread, and every one like it on the net, is nothing but an adult version of the game kids play where they tell a secret in a circle and see how much it has changed by the time it gets back around to the first person. Next we will have an Internet rumor that Canon 5D mkII bodies melt in rain. Come on people, apply some critical thinking skills! Every camera manufacturer needs to submit to some standard testing for weather and water resistance. They need to be clear as to what the test results mean for practical use. And they need to include a clear manual chapter on proper camera care in extreme conditions. Every manufacturer is guilty of failing here. The end result is a group of Antarctic warriors with more money than sense doing stupid things with their cameras.

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