Two bath developers again

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

I would love to use a developer like Diafine for better consistency

and short development times that's panthermic and has short

development time like Diafine but with different characteristics. No

pushing, full film speed. High sharpness, but fine grain (Diafine

gives me much bigger grain than PC-TEA for example) and no strong

compensation. No sulfite if possible.

 

Is it possible to formulate something like this?

[ivan_dzo]

Dan, the darkroom cookbook has a whole chapter on divided developers and generally feels that they have little to offer above normal developers with the exception of a few specialised situations. That's certainly what I find from the efforts I've made. The theoretical benefits are not found by most people who try them. I'll duck down into my bomb shelter now!

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

If I can find a divided developer that will do what a standard developer does but in shorter time and is panthermic, then the advantages are shorter development times and consistency. I can be a slob you see, and not get the temperature right, or not get agitation right, etc.

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Dan.

 

Here's a copy of a post I made elsewhere that seems on-topic here:

 

I've been experimenting with 2-bath developers lately, and can say with absolute confidence that the technique is very well suited to modern films. A 2-bath developer need not be complicated, and in my own approach, need not keep for long. I often shoot several kinds of films in various conditions over a period of time, and process them all in one darkroom session. A single-session, 2-bath developer is a very appealing option, for several reasons. Since it doesn't have to keep for more than a day or two, no sulfite is required, allowing very high acutance formulations. Issues of keeping properties are totally avoided, and it is not necessary to store solutions of unknown activity for any length of time. In this way, it behaves much like a one-shot developer. It is a very economical approach, as several films can be processed in a small volume of solution, and it is very consistent in performance over its lifetime, without the complications of replenishment. The only limit to the number of films that can be processed in a single-session, 2-bath developer over its lifetime, is the solution volume. Each film carries a small amount of the first solution with it to the second bath, thereby reducing the volume of the first bath. A roll of film will reduce the volume of the first bath by 10-20ml. If your tank requires 500ml of solution to cover your film, and you make one liter of each bath, you can safely process about 25-50 rolls of film before the volume of the first bath is reduced below 500ml. In other words, capacity is simply not an issue for a single-session developer. Contrast control is possible over a wide range by adjusting the time in the first bath. I've found the following formula to produce consistently excellent results with a wide variety of films, including designer-grain films:

 

A

 

water 750ml

 

metol 5g

 

sodium ascorbate 20g

 

water to 1 liter

 

B

 

10% sodium metaborate.

 

 

Development times are 1-3min in each bath, for normal contrast. Increase time in A to increase contrast.

 

This type of developer is very forgiving, in every way. If you don't have a scale, simply use teaspoon measurements (1tsp metol/4tsp. sodium ascorbate/liter). If you don't have sodium metaborate, use whatever you have. A 1% borax second bath will reduce grain and contrast, and a 10% sodium carbonate bath will increase both. Development times for a given film will differ with changes to the second bath. If you have ascorbic acid, but no sodium ascorbate, mix 4tsp ascorbic acid with 2 tsp baking soda in a small amount of water (50ml +/-) to make sodium ascorbate.

 

this developer produces extremely sharp negatives, with full film speed, and very fine grain. Fog is very low, and gradation is excellent. The first bath will keep for weeks, but I use it as a single-session developer and avoid finding out exactly how long it will keep. Enjoy!

 

Jay<div></div>

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

Thanks. Is phenidone okay instead of metol? Do you know any reliable sources for fresh ascorbate so I don't have to mix vit. c with soda? Thanks.

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Dan.

 

Metol is the traditional agent of choice for 2-bath developers partly because it works at neutral pH, which makes solutions of good keeping properties practical. If you substitute phenidone for metol at the rate of 1 part phenidone:8 parts metol, your development times might be longer than with the metol version, but I can't say for certain. You could substitute phenidone up to a maximum of 7% of the sodium ascorbate, or .35g, but be sure to watch for increased fog.

 

Jay

[jay_de_fehr]

Dan,

 

here's a link to a sodium ascorbate source:

 

http://www.nowcatalog.com/0760.html

 

The reason many convert ascorbic acid instead of stocking the sodium is that the acid has better keeping properties.

 

Jay

[jordan_w.]

Interesting formula, Jay. I'm going to have to try it someday. Have you tried measuring the pH of your Bath A? How much development takes place in this bath? I also find the statement that metol works at neutral pH a little surprising -- it should take a little alkali to make it active, and don't you want it to remain as inactive as possible in bath A? By this logic, phenidone should work just as well, since it should be even less pH-sensitive than metol.

 

Dan, I tried making a divided developer out of a Gainer-like set of concentrates once (phenidone/ascorbic acid in bath A, carbonate in bath B). I got blank film. There could have been many reasons for this, and you should experiment -- variations on Jay's formula will probably work well.

[discpad]

Here's an email I just sent two hours ago to my friend up in Manhattan...

 

 

Hi Lisa!

 

I'm working on a project especially for you: A no-hassle way to develop your own B&W 120 film!

 

First, the processing apparatus has to be small and easily stowed away, because your apartment is tiny;

 

Second, reels take too much time and patience to loadﾅ Commodities you lack,

 

Third, the chemistry has to be easy to mix and inexpensive -- Like 10 cents per roll!

 

Fourth, the process has to be easy to time, and forgiving of temperature variations (within reasonable limits);

 

Fifth, the results have to be as good as, if not better than you can get at Duggal.

 

After much discussion with several developer chemists, the consensus centers around Divided D-23 -- Just like Ansel Adams used!

 

For Ed Buffaloe's description, see:

http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/DD-23/dd-23.html

 

...And for the late Barry Thornton's description of two-bath developers, see:

 

http://www.ephotozine.com/techniques/viewtechnique.cfm?recid=70

 

Now, before you holler about having to weigh out the ingredients, don't: I have all the quantities worked out -- And the processor apparatus sized! -- so you can measure everything with a simple teaspoon!

 

Once you process your first roll of film, you'll poop your panties when you realize how much you've needlessly spent over the years!

 

-----------

 

What I'm building for you is a simple apparatus that has four vertical tubes that are 3 inches in diameter and not quite 3 feet tall.

 

Next, loading is easy: Simply unwind the film, put the clips on the ends, and drop it in the the tube. These tubes have light-tight caps that allow you to just drop the film in, put the cap on, and walk away.

 

Come back in 4 minutes and pull the film out of the first tube and drop it in the second tube. Come back in another 4 minutes, and drop the film into the stop/rinse for a quick 30 seconds, then toss the film into the fixer.

 

After a few (6-10) minutes, in daylight pop the film into the final rinse, then hang in the shower to dryﾅ And marvel at your work!

[jay_de_fehr]

Hi Jordan.

 

Yes, some development does take place in the first bath, along the lines of D23, which allows for contrast control via time in the bath. I think a big part of making the A bath inactive is to maximize keeping properties, but those types of 2-bath developers don't allow for contrast control except by constitution of the A bath. Here's a formula that works super-fast:

 

M1C2

 

 

1

 

distilled water 750ml

 

sodium sulfite 50g

 

metol 5g

 

water to 1 liter

 

2

 

distilled water 750ml

 

sodium carbonate 20g

 

borax 10g

 

ascorbic acid 10g

 

water to 1 liter

 

development time is +/-1min ea bath.

 

and a fine grain 2-bath:

 

PC-Chloride

 

A

 

distilled water 750ml

 

sodium chloride 20g

 

ascorbic acid 2g

 

phenidone .1g

 

water to 1 liter

 

B

 

10% sodium metaborate

 

development time is 5-7 min- ea bath.

 

Jay

[jordan_w.]

Jay -- That last formula (PC-Chloride) looks very interesting. What happens if you leave out the sodium chloride?

[jay_de_fehr]

Good question, Jordan. The chloride should raise the pH enough to activate the ascorbic acid/phenidone pair, but it is also known to restrain development, and act as a silver solvent for fine grain. I don't know what differences to expect with the chloride omitted. It might be more active, or less active, and there might be more grain, or not, I really don't know. If you try it, let me know what happens.

 

Jay

[jim_appleyard]

Hi Dan, I can only add that I've tried every divided dev in Anchell's "Darkroom Cookbook" with poor results (flat, wimpy, underdevved negs) except one: D2D. I've had great success with that one and use it quite often, mostly with wedding film.

[discpad]

Jim, can you post some examples?

[jordan_w.]

Jay -- I may have a go at it -- ordinarily I wouldn't expect sodium chloride to have any significant effect on pH unless other solvents or poorly soluble bases were present. Sodium chloride is a completely neutral salt (salt of a strong acid and a strong base).

 

Once I get the chance to mix up a stock of phenidone in propylene glycol I'll give it a go.

[bljkasfdljkasfdljskfa]

Jordan please let mee know your results. Thanks.

 

I hope that Now ascorbate is fresh. Thanks all.

[mark_booth2]

Jay De Fehr-- I would like to work with the MC 2 Bath formula but I need some clarification

on Bath B solution. You say to make a 10% sodium metaborate solution, but what is the

strength of the solution? Our how many grams are you talking about per Liter? Thanks for

your clarification. Your contributions are appreciated.

[jordan_w.]

Mark, a 10% solution of anything is generally taken to be equivalent to 100 grams per litre.

[mark_booth2]

Dan, thank you for your response to the 10% solution question. I am new at much of this so

thanks for your patience. What stumps me is that 100 grams of sodium metaborate sounds a

little much to me when most two bath developers seem to only require 10-12 grams per liter

for N development. Examples: Thornton 2-Bath; Adams DD-23.

[mark_booth2]

Pardon me, my question was to be addressed to Jordan and not Dan, oops!

[Alan Johnson]

I have used a B bath of 12 g/L sodium metaborate with an A bath of either 6 g/L metol or 1 g/L phenidone with 50 g/L sodium ascorbate and originally obtained good prints on grade 2-3 from Tri-X with 4min 68F in both baths (Ag 30s,then 10s/min.)

 

The A bath ,phenidone version, and B bath are now 4 months old, kept in full sealed glass bottles with plastic caps.The A has gone an orange color and I developed a test film in it, 4m+4m 68F.The negs are now very thin,just about printable.The stuff does work with a part B of 12g/L metaborate but the phenidone-ascorbate part A apparently goes off even in absence of air.

[eugen_mezei]

On 2/3/2006 at 1:51 AM, discpad said:

What I'm building for you is a simple apparatus that has four vertical tubes that are 3 inches in diameter and not quite 3 feet tall.

 

Next, loading is easy: Simply unwind the film, put the clips on the ends, and drop it in the the tube. These tubes have light-tight caps that allow you to just drop the film in, put the cap on, and walk away.

 

Come back in 4 minutes and pull the film out of the first tube and drop it in the second tube. Come back in another 4 minutes, and drop the film into the stop/rinse for a quick 30 seconds, then toss the film into the fixer.

 

After a few (6-10) minutes, in daylight pop the film into the final rinse, then hang in the shower to dryﾅ And marvel at your work!

I would like to see that apparatus.