I'm all Eyes- Let's see how Lens Signature affects Photographs

[Brad_]

<I>What you seem not to realize is that you're as arrogant and as big a windbag as

anyone....</I><P>

 

Bingo!<BR><P>

 

Almost every photographer here, from the very good to the average just post photos. No

explanations, caveats, or excuses why their pix might not look good on the web. Also,

with the majority, I have no idea what they do for a living, what their job title is, how well

off they are, no knowledge of their credentials, how much high-end gear they have, etc -

it's their photos that talk. Personally, I like that, simple and down to earth. Mystery is

good - too much personal information, usually offered as a defense or a self pat on the

back, not good. Photos should be enough. I think those that need to periodically waive

their credentials around suffer form some sort of insecurity.

[al_kaplan1]

Marc, you summed things up quite nicely. I guess you and I are missing the boat with our B&W work. From now on we should print up some of the out of focus "wind-on" frames from the beginning of the roll and tell our clients that it's "great art". Magnum photographers? Maybe you guys should get to know some, have a coffee and chat, learn how they shoot, and not just base your opinions on the relatively few images chosen by the editors of various publications. Actually there's a link earlier in this thread to a photo I made of the guy who just stepped down as head of Magnum's New York office, before his career with National Geographic, way back when he was still in college. Before that, while still in high school he used to use my darkroom and shot with a Pentax. By the time this photo was taken he had some Leica M's and lenses. Keep smiling!

[EricM]

Al, I guess you missed Brad's last sentence b4 you posted? Amazingly brilliant timing that solidifies his pov...

[Uhooru]

Started to think I wanted to pipe in, but realized had nothing to add but this. I have to

hand it to Ray for launching this thread. I've talked to and met Ray a couple of times we

talked about stuff, went out shooting. Sometimes when he starts off a thread this way,

very challanging and even hostile sounding, where he basically comes wading in like he's

picking a fight. I get a little pissed because its not my style and I can't believe he really is

that intellectually adamant and I think he is purposefully pushing peoples buttons just to

stir the pot. I think Ray, my friend, you enjoy it. But by god, no other person on this or the

S & D forum can get people to look at their comfortable assumptions so well. Even though

these discussions usually, as this one is, end up polarizing and the usual sniping, this is

actually the best thread this forum has seen since lemos and edmo left, there's been some

good pictures, and a bit of craic, and I've seen people post I havn't for a while, so i'm

dedicating my next pint to Ray! Fair play to you. I say go for it even if it creates some

discomfort, that's just sleeping parts awakening.

 

BTW, I support what Pete said, this place is WAY lessened by losing Grant, Edmo and those

of that posse that split. I'd trade their direct substance over polite triviality any day even

though I may only be capable of the latter myself, I can at least learn something.

[ray .]

The camera was one of the most incredible inventions ever to

come down the pike. It revolutionized society. What was it? A

box with a hole to let light in. That's it. The essence of what is

photographic. Everything after was refinement. Pinhole,

daguerreotype, Holga, Leica, view camera, digital- they're all

amazing. Magical. What gets talked about here often loses

sight of that. When people post photos that don't celebrate what

is photographic it's lost sight of. People get caught up in the

nuances of gear. That's OK. But look at what photography is in

its essence. It is not gear. Maybe to some it is. But to those of

us who love photography, meaning photographs and the

essentials of what makes up a photograph- light, subject, time-

any piece of equipment that does the job well and up to modern

standards is more than good enough to create magic. And it's

not about money, or who you know.

[Uhooru]

OT - BTW edmo's subway series seen on my Leica Summicron Monitor, is really great. My old,

monitor at work didn't do them well. If you want to see how someone uses light, camera,

subject matter in an interesting and powerful way. Check it out. See WTF's thread above for

the link.

[fotografz]

"Photos should be enough."

 

So where are they from the people throwing around words like "Sucks" ?

 

The photos here were suppose to be part of the lens signature discussion, not a request

for a critique.

 

That specific subject triggered the opinion that the web may be to blunt of an instrument

to demonstrate such a subtile aspect of photography ... which is just dismissed out of

hand as "excuses" ... and done so with high minded photo content snobbery that rivals

equipment snobbery.

 

And you are surprised and appalled when "Sucks" and KMA are met with like reply?

[ray .]

Marc, I read your first comment on this thread as a dismissive

attack on me, but I know you're a good guy and a good

photographer, so let's quit, and agree to disagree.

 

Quite a few people here have expressed the viewpoint this has

been a good discussion, and lots of people have gotten involved,

messy as it sometimes gets. That's good for the forum and to

the point of why it should be here as far as I can see.

 

It's really way late, I've gotta hit the hay. Peace.

[fotografz]

Agreed Ray. Where I do see eye to eye with you is urging folks to improve, which is your

intent I think. Maybe you're fed up with pounding your head against a brick wall on that

subject. But IMO I don't think you can insult someone into it.

 

Best way I think is exactly what Travis just did with his "celebration" thread. But to each his

own.

[william_todd_faulk]

<b><i>"You've seen my work, or if you forgot go to chaospress.com"</i></B>

<p>

Interestingly, if one had forgotten your work than your work is not exceptionally moving or especially memorable to begin with.

<p>

In my most humble judgment both Mark and Ray should direct their focus on improving their own work to the levels of Trevor or Kent.

<p>

Sincerely,<br>

WTF

[al_kaplan1]

Eric~, yes it was odd that Brad and I posted at the same minute. I'll address Brad's points. Credentials count in the marketplace. Connections, who you know, get you assignments as much as portfolio. In many cases without them you'd never get anyone to even look at your work. "People skills" are important too in the real world. I can't imagine Marc or myself talking with an editor or art director and calling him an ass, or telling him that his latest work sucked, even if I thought so. There are ways to work your opinions into the conversation without being so confrontational. Getting constantly insulted on the Leica Forum by people who never use Leicas and brag that they only use digital? Insane.

 

I'm not an equipment junky or a fondler. Since I started getting Social Security checks I've pared down to my mostly well used (hardly pristine) rangefinder Leicas. No more 4x5, no more Hasselblad, no more Leica R kit. I did buy that used Bessa L with the 15mm Heliar and I've been having great fun with it. I think I paid about $425 including shipping.

 

And I'm not an equipment junky and never was. I know a lot about equipment because it can be useful information in the real world. In the past year or so I've probably used that cheap little camera and lens for over 90% of my shooting. When I do shoot an assignment I get requests for those 15mm shots. Hey, I'm having fun! Those self-portraits have been extremely popular with people, both locally and and here on the Leica Forum. I get encouraged to keep doing it. People keep ordering signed prints too. For some strange reason the more that you, Brad, and your cohorts put me down and make fun of the project the more interest it generates and brings me still more orders. I thank you.

 

Still, I'm debating whether or not to just pull out of here and leave you "street shooters" to your mutual admiration society. If you were really such great shooters the Street Forum might be

full of great shots and you trolls wouldn't be sniping here. The Street Forum is a pretty much dead place these days. Or maybe I should just print up a bunch of my street shots and pack the forum with some examples of stuff that was shot on assignment and saw publication? You guys can't produce under pressure so you squak and put down those that have paid their dues.

 

One other point. I seem to have a hell of a lot of pictures of famous people shot years before they became famous. Many were teenagers when I photographed them first time around. If you and Brad and your buds would like I'd be more than happy to do some photos of you. Maybe you'll have the same experience! Become famous!

[EricM]

"Or maybe I should just print up a bunch of my street shots and pack the forum with some examples of stuff that was shot on assignment and saw publication?"

 

I'd just like you to print up the pics that you owe me from the bulk film exchange. I did say take your time, but this is ridiculous.

[Brad_]

<I>I'll address Brad's points. Credentials count in the marketplace. </I><P>

 

Al, you were not the one I was referring to in my post! But upon reflection, I can see how

you might see that it would. Something about the shoe fitting...<P>

 

Sure, credentials count in the market place. But this isn't the marketplace - it's just a

bunch of (mostly) guys that shoot and like to show pix. <P>

 

<I>Getting constantly insulted on the Leica Forum by people who never use Leicas and

brag that they only use digital? Insane.</I><P>

 

Nobody is personally insulting you. Just commenting on poor photography, some bad

science, and taking issue with comments about digital you make that are factually not

true. And nobody is "bashing leica." Just a lot of the common ideas that seem to swirl

around the notion that only leica cams and lenses (and film) can return great results and

that digital is substandard. The recent Afghan pix thread should debunk that. I can see

how people who propagate those notions might feel personally assaulted - after all their

belief system is being challenged. <P>

 

Perhaps you should reflect upon why <I>you're</I> the only one that feels attacked.

There are plenty of shooters here that use a leica and get great pix. Why is it <I>they</I>

don't feel assaulted. Look within...<P>

 

<I>...leave you "street shooters" to your mutual admiration society. </I><P>

 

Any examples of mutual admiration to offer? I don't offer many compliments, but when I

do, they're genuine. Seems lately, the ones that I've made have been given to a few of

those dastardly "leica shooters." Damn, I hate it when that happens. Curses...

[ray .]

van gogh didn't live in your version of the "real world," Al, but

funny, his work is around long after those who did in his day are

long forgotten.

 

My real world is that I have friends who genuinely get something

out of my work. Not everything is about money, and people don't

have to be giving money for there to be value.

 

Do you think for instance that Jessica Simpson is a better singer

than KD Lang? Who's making the most money?

[al_kaplan1]

I'd like to thank all of you who have sent me emails and called me about this thread, and askied me to stay here on photo.net. I heard that there was at least one suspension because of nastiness on this thread. I guess I'll stick it out. Thanks, guys!

[Brad_]

Really Al, who was being nasty? Seems one of your buddies was booted last week, though.

[EricM]

You're fans are all of a sudden to shy to post their words of priase here and instead call you personally? Hmmm...

 

Guess you're selectively reading again and skimmed over my 10:35 a.m. post? No biggie, you're released from the deal and I wont bring it up further.

[kevin m.]

"I guess I'll stick it out. Thanks, guys!"

 

Whatever you're "sticking out," please put it away.

[Tony Rowlett]

Threads like these are great for at least one reason. They invariably morph into a kind of buffet table for the likes of poeple like me. Kind of like a piece of meat at the top of a stick in a pail of water to kill bees. Stats: 1 person suspended; 1 person banned. :-)

[Uhooru]

Wasn't there a thread here recently discussing passive agression? Do you think any of that would apply here?

 

Al, I don't know you, have no beef with you. I've seen a few photos from you that I like, mostly from the 60's that showed me you were taking some great photos and obviously know what you are doing. I've also seen a bunch of photos that have been scanned for you by your friend/s, that frankly I didn't think were worthy of you, and I said so at the time, not in a challanging rancerous manner, or at least I hope so. Despite that, a whole cotierre of Leica Forum indiviuals were patting you on the back for what to me seemed sub-standard work obviously not up to your darkroom standards. But these remarks don't apply just to you. It happens quite frequently, there's a lot of "My first Summicron children by the park photos" followed by, "great stuff,that lens really performs" when in reality, its a generally obviously poorly exposed, composed and executed photo with very little interest. Maybe that's the type of forum carry-on that leads some folks who really love photographs to believe that people may be focused on the wrong thing with the leica equipment/fetish deal. Its the obvious disconnect that people are pointing out..

 

If people want to meaningfully discuss lens qualities, then they need to put up good examples, at least properly exposed and, properly scanned and adjusted photographs to discuss. If the photo shows also a photographic eye, all the better, and if you can show how a lens helped achieve a good photos finished look, then there ya go. I realize I open myself to some sort of elitist charge. I don't say I'm a great photographer, but I will say, for the great majority of my photos, they are more or less properly exposed and post processed as I want them to be and if not then there's some other, in my mind, good reason to post it. If it doesn't meet some minimum standard that I set for myself, than I don't post it.

[sprouty]

Wow, this is more entertaining than...well, maybe work I guess.

<P>

I can think of a few things more important than "lens signature" for me:

<P>

* A compelling subject

<P>

* An interesting composition

<P>

* Proper exposure (I hate under exposed color negs)

<P>

* Holding my damn camera steady

<P>

* Not shooting when I'm drunk

<P>

Of course having said that, I can always pick out the difference between my Summicron and my Holga (well almost always).

[michael s.]

"First Summicron children" sounds almost anthropological, Barry -:)

[kevin m.]

A suspension over this thread? Jeez. Nothing here would have raised an eyebrow during any

of the good Jay and/or Grant blow-ups. Has it been that dull lately?

[eliot_rosen1]

Who was suspended/booted?

[Uhooru]

Too much time alone with that cron I guess...heh