Need some help with my tri-x / rodinal technique

<p>Hi all,<br>

Home developer beginner here. So I've been picking around flickr checking out other people's results with tri-x developed by rodinal and I'd say I see a lot of results that are coming out better than my first attempts. I see a lot of scraps of people's technique (agitation regimen etc.) and there seems to be a lot of variety. Some people agitate every 30 secs, other people every 90, some agitate vigorously for first 30 secs, some people agitate for 5 seconds every 30 secs for first 5 minutes and then 10 seconds every 60 secs for the remainder and so on and so on.<br>

I'd love it if an experienced rodinal user could give me a development scheme to follow for EI 400. I'm using the pattern universal tank (2 135 or 1 120/220). I'd like to know details like do I use the twister thing, how many times to overturn the tank in however many seconds of agitation and how gently to overturn it, things like that. Something detailed that would give me a decent starting point is what I'm after.<br>

I'd also like to try the overexpose - underdevelopment thing, EI 250 or 200 or whichever. Thanks a lot! I really like rodinal tri-x results out there and would like to emulate what I'm seeing.</p>

<p>Rodinal and it's close cousins, is best used with slower films.<br>

it will give very good results with these slower films..<br>

true that most any developer will develop any film.<br>

but some work much better than others.</p>

 

<p>I have to agree with Walter, I hardly every use Rodinal with Tri-x. The grain is tight and sharp, but large. Try some Pan-F or Plus-x. Good luck</p>

<p>Good to know. I'll keep an open mind as I proceed.</p>

<p>Try this Shoot it at 320-400 and then put it in Rodinol 1-100 agitate it for 30 seconds then sit it down for 59.5 minutes. Drain stop and fix.</p>

<p>Interesting, I haven't tried development where you just let it sit. What are the benefits of this over shorter developments with more agitation?</p>

<p>Tri-X 400 (E.I. 250) in Rodinal 1+50 9:00 minutes. First minute continuous then every 30s 1x agitate, slowly.<br>

Tight grain, visible but very regular and sharp negatives. I think this is a good combination if you like to see some grain.</p>

<p>Greetz,</p>

<p>Robert</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Willy, This is called "stand" as well, as in stand development. The benefits, especially with developers like Rodinal, are that the developer exhausts in a rather linear manner, allowing for fairly normal development at first, then, as the developer exhausts, the highlights tend to stop developing, and the shadow areas are brought out more. This gives a longer tonal range, and more detail in your shadow areas.</p>

<p>Willy-Here is the <a href="http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Developers/Times_Rodinal/Rodinal.pdf">Rodinal development sheet</a> from Agfa. If you start with those numbers you might find that your film in Rodinal tends to loose speed and look a bit overdeveloped. Most pull the film a bit and shorten development time and end up with numbers like Mr. Vonk. Also, Rodinal needs gentle agitation. I've had surge issues and had to drop my agitation to 1min cont. then 2x min. Too aggresssive and you get surge marks, too little and it can be uneven. For good info on stand development, c<a href="http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61643&highlight=Stand+development&page=2">heck out this thread on RFF, </a>especially <a href="http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=927796&postcount=47">P. Lynn Miller's post.</a> Here is TriX in an old box camera pushed to ISO 12,000 with the stand method:</p>

<p><img src="http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m137/Proteus617/Brillant/img00810sa640x.jpg" alt="" /></p>

<p>Let me start with your downrating question. I rate Tri-X at 160 in bright light and dev in Rodinal, 1/50 dilution, 20 C, 8 minutes. I give 6 inversions of the tank in the first 30 seconds then one inversion every 30 seconds after that. When I invert I count it out: invert-2-3-and-return - it takes about 5 seconds. I give the tank a half turn as it stands on the bench just before inverting it. That imparts some circualr motion to the liquid.<br>

At rated speed (400 ASA), I develop in Rodinal at 1/25, 20 C, 7 minutes. </p>

<p>Let me start with your downrating question. I rate Tri-X at 160 in bright light and dev in Rodinal, 1/50 dilution, 20 C, 8 minutes. I give 6 inversions of the tank in the first 30 seconds then one inversion every 30 seconds after that. When I invert I count it out: invert-2-3-and-return - it takes about 5 seconds. I give the tank a half turn as it stands on the bench just before inverting it. That imparts some circualr motion to the liquid.<br>

At rated speed (400 ASA), I develop in Rodinal at 1/25, 20 C, 7 minutes. </p>

<p>There is only really one magic bullet thing to consider with Rodinal; gentle swish. When agitating the developer use gentle swishes, like that of a glass of wine. You don't want to move around the developer too much as you will loose control of your highlights. The compensating effect relies on developer exhaustion around the highlights.</p>

<p>Wow thanks everybody for the detailed responses! Stand development sounds like it's definitely worth a try. Maybe I'll give it a go in the morning. If the ambient temperature is at 22C-23C then would it be safe to stand 20C 1:100 for an hour or should I prepare a 20C water tray just to be safe? I'm not sure how much the temperature would change over the hour but it seems like it would be a good idea regardless.<br>

Now, if I wanted more grain than stand then trying 1:50, and if after that I could get even more grain by using a development scheme with 1:25 rodinal? Is this correct?</p>

<p>Stand is forgiving. Tough I would give it a pre-wash in 19-20C water if you think you will be at 22C. And if it does hit 23C well then pull it back 10 minutes or so. but you never know the magic of Rodinol and stand until you try it for yourself. ...Wink</p>

<p>For stand development you go to the high dilution 1+100 or more (1+150). Above one hour the Rodinal in such high dilution is oxydized and last added time doesn't matter anymore.</p>

<p>However Rodinal generates more grain with a higher temperature hence a lot of people are using this Para-Amino Phenol developer at 16-20C.<br>

The same with the agitation: Less agitation mean less grain. A higher dilution means more sharpness and acutance.<br>

About the minimum amount of concentrate for each 135-36 or equivalent 120 roll film: 10ml according Agfa but the real minimum is 5-6ml for each film. Under this minimum you are depending of the amount Black and White area in your negatives so it could be not reproducible anymore.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/Rodinal.pdf">http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/Rodinal.pdf</a></p>

<p>The main reason to use Rodinal (or R-09) is its lack of sodium sulfite. Developers with sodium sulfite sacrifice detail resolution in order to get lower grain...sodium sulfite dissolves grain, and detail resolution along with it.</p>

<p>Many photographers have preferred lower grain to higher resolution forever, the main reason being their inability to afford medium or large format equipment...</p>

<p>Rodinal produces its own visual signature, an "edge effect" that defines edges between certain areas of density. Very attractive. That's destroyed by agitation much beyond stand development. You can't get that edge effect with any other routinely available developer as far as I know.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Since your question suggests you're looking at others' results and wishing yours were better, I'd suggest that we first need to consider what sort of enlarger you're using. A condenser enlarger needs 20% or so less development because it prints with inherently higher contrast. Either will yield high quality results, but most development times are given with the assumption you're using a diffusion enlarger (either a color or a "cold light" fluorescent head). Given these variables, it doesn't help much to take a cookbook approach without that information. As long as you don't see signs of agitation streaking, your agitation technique probably ok and what you need is control over exposure and the overall level of development you're giving the film. Use all the good recommendations you're getting about dilution, agitation technique, etc., but do yourself a favor and use a "ring around" approach to narrow down your own results with your own equipment--that is, expose film at several different EIs and develop for several different times and see for yourself what prints well. Taking time to experiment will serve you well because it gives you a method to refine your results no matter what film/developer combination you use.</p>

<p>Since your question suggests you're looking at others' results and wishing yours were better, I'd suggest that we first need to consider what sort of enlarger you're using. A condenser enlarger needs 20% or so less development because it prints with inherently higher contrast. Either will yield high quality results, but most development times are given with the assumption you're using a diffusion enlarger (either a color or a "cold light" fluorescent head). Given these variables, it doesn't help much to take a cookbook approach without that information. As long as you don't see signs of agitation streaking, your agitation technique is probably ok and what you need is control over exposure and the overall level of development you're giving the film. Use all the good recommendations you're getting about dilution, agitation technique, etc., but do yourself a favor and use a "ring around" approach to narrow down your own results with your own equipment--that is, expose film at several different EIs and develop for several different times and see for yourself what prints well. Taking time to experiment will serve you well because it gives you a method to refine your results no matter what film/developer combination you use.</p>

<p>Don't do it unless you really love grain. If you decide to do it anyway, use 100:1 for a very long time.</p>

<p>Lynn </p>

<p>Willy,</p>

<p>Personally, Tri-X and Rodinal is my preffered combination. Sure there's grain. I love it. It's tight, sharp and well defined. The images have a certain vividness to them and the tonal signature of Rodinal is one that really pleases my eye - there's nothing like it.</p>

<p>My standard method is this;<br /> 12.5min, 20C, 1+50 - agitate gently every minute. The last 2 minutes I let it sit. I also rate Tri-X @ 200-250.</p>

<p>There's also some discussions online about adding Xtol to Rodinal to get finer grain. I have not tried this. Rodinal is not meant to be finer grain. I think grain is beautiful, and so I use Rodinal. Since most of my prints are in a Dark Room, Rodinal is absolutely fantastic. Scanned, the grains loses a bit of its character. You can see some of my images, most of them Rodinal/TriX combination.</p>

<p>http://www.flickr.com/photos/49215063@N05/</p>

<p>J</p>

<p>Reviving this thread . . . I need some advice . . .<br>

I decided to try Tri-X, well actually Arista Premium, in Fomadon R09. I followed this formula and procedure: "Tri-X 400 (E.I. 250) in Rodinal 1+50 9:00 minutes. First minute continuous then every 30s 1x agitate, slowly." Only difference was that I exposed at 200 instead of 250--meaning even greater overexposure.<br>

The rest was disappointing I got under-developed negatives; not awful--just greyish--not enough tonal separation. I know they are under-developed because the film identification marking is slightly faded.<br>

Question: is this due to pulling (over-exposing) the film? Perhaps pulling requires even more development--(but I had assumed that overexposure would require less development and thought if anything I was erring on the side of over development); or is it due to the effectiveness of the developer, either improper mixing (perhaps it is supposed to be at 1:40 instead of 1:50), or perhaps a loss of potency? The developer is past date, but it is based on the Rodinal formula (apparently) and is supposed to be effective for a long time.</p>