Having checked out the Beta for the new version of Photo.net. . .

Discussion in 'Photo.net Site Help' started by landrum_kelly, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. The new Beta:
    I have to say that it is very impressive, having a certain elegance and even gravitas. I have not had time to delve into it in detail, but the first impression that it gives is quite stunning--and the first impression is where we win or lose new members.
    Looks good, Glenn! Thank you.
  2. Yep. I haven't gone too deep into it yet. It will take some getting used to but so far, I like it. It just may breathe some new life into this old house. Very nice and a bit of a surprise. :D
  3. I agree with Lannie and John. This is a great start with great potential. There is a learning curve for navigation, expected for anything new. What I like best so far is that it seems to focus the site on the art of photography rather than carrying it as a sideline to the discussion forums.
    I also think the quality of the gallery presentations is a huge improvement over the existing one.
    Well done, Glenn!
  4. I've already emailed my feedback to PhotoNET's manager Glenn Palm.
    My main beef is it looks and functions too much like flickr (constantly downloading Photo Of The Day pix, images jerk back and forth with each scroll).
    And this may be just my old school advertising background talking here but IMO a site that features photography and photographers should not diminish the importance of its member's featured photos by making them appear as stock photography wallpaper by placing graphics on top of them. They're no longer a feature but an advertising element. In fact that's what I thought they were what we in the advertising business used to call drop in place holders.
    I also think it's misleading to only feature those styles of "slick" photos as if that's the only kind of photography on this site. I hope PN is not trying to be another 500px.com. They need to stand out from the crowd.
    I see a lot of similarities... http://500px.com/
  5. Where can that new beta be found?
  6. They need to back off on the color saturation just a bit, and I hope that photo.net/photos/sanford will still open to a clean, easy to navigate gallery page with thumbnails and slideshow, etc.
  7. Just found the beta site - quite a departure from the line-based current site. Need to spend some time there before I can provide any meaningful input. My first peek was a little intimidating, but that is to be expected with such a radical change from our current site.
  8. I started a thread on the beta site in No Words. It's titled "The New Beta Site". It would be helpful if some other testers would post a photo in that thread so we can see how it looks. Thanks.
  9. Gave it try Laura but it's now hung up on "One Moment Please" as I'm typing this. I uploaded a 700 pixel tall portrait from my desktop, the old way, not from "Attach From Photo.net".
    Whoops! I just now figured out that I have to click the orange Submit button once I see one line of monotype font written code entry in the white empty box. Now the portrait shows up but it's been considerably upsized with saw tooth edges. Maybe I shouldn't have dragged the corner that increased the frame size.
    Laura, your posted image appears a bit smaller than 700 pixels though, around maybe 500 pixels on the long end. Hope they have something more intuitive and pixel exact than dragging a bounding box corner to adjust uploaded image sizes.
    I had to sign in but had issues with using my regular PN email and password and just signed in through Google which I do to post in Disqus discussions on other sites. Now that's convenient even if I have to give up some personal info from my Google profile.
    Also poster's names need to be in a darker font and not a light gray. It's hard to read on a white field and reduces its emphasis on who is posting.
  10. Looks and feels good, that was my first impressions.
  11. First impression: Definitely looks up to date now - a great step forward! And on first glance I could spot features I'm typically using - so, no hard learning curve from my point of view.
    The blueish background is obviously a consequence of the branding but I'm not sure whether it serves well as a neutral "wall for hanging".
    Tim, you're raising an important point - to me photo.net "stands out from the crowd" for the higher quality of comments and interactions between users - I keep my fingers crossed, that this "quality" will survive in the new world...
    @Laura: replied to your post...
  12. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    Thank you for the feedback - keep it coming! I am but one of many people working on this project and NameMedia has been funding it anticipating great things for us. If you don't feel comfortable posting your response here - email me directly and all feedback will be reviewed and taken into consideration.
  13. Tim,
    Thanks for joining in. Yes, I had the same trouble with the "one moment please", that moment went on and on, then I tried submit. Things went from there, a little bumpy, but ok. I didn't drag the photo. Mine is 700 on the long side. I figured best to stay with PN standard as I didn't see posting criteria for beta.
    @ Wolfgang, thanks for joining in. Many things will be a bit confusing, but I can do things now that I wasn't able to do in prior testing, so I'm happy to see those fixes in place.
    Glenn, Will that entire box be on the right side all posts?
    The large "Sign In - Sign Up" box directly under "Post A Response" is awkward. Is this the new layout?
    I mentioned the font colors in prior testing . Light on light and dark on dark is hard to read.
  14. When I try to access the discussion area, I'm getting another request for my login info. When I supply it, I'm denied access. So I have been limited to the photo galleries and critique areas. So my comments below should be taken in that context. I may be missing some important new features of the site.
    My feeling regarding the site overhaul is that it's a big improvement aesthetically but PN needs substantive invigoration as well, which would require new features, more encouraged and supported user interactions, etc. Don't know how or what, but I think a surface refresh, which this seems to be and is a good one, without a more substantial update of the site as a whole will likely not do the trick.
  15. Encouraging at first glance. Will cancel all my social activities for the Labor Day weekend and dig into the guts. Big sacrifice. Was going to have my first chance in 4 years to get some on Saturday :-(
  16. You really do need to get out more Jim, there still Greenland to visit.
  17. There ya' go, Jim! Always a cheerful giver.
    Oh, in regards to Photo.net 2.0 improvement I'ld suggest you make the Photo.Net logo 30% larger on the main page. On my 1080p 27in display the 'O' in photo is 3/8 in. tall and should be 1/2 in. I actually scaled it up in screengrab of the entire browser page in Photoshop.
    As it is now it's too small and just doesn't stand out from what I'ld expect from a main page website.
  18. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @ Fred - 2.0 is just the beginning of what I hope and expect to be many more updates to come. We are very optimistic for the future of photo.net. All we can do is take positive strides every day towards continually improving our stage so our community can thrive. As long as we continue to do that, we will be headed in the direction we all want photo.net to be going. I understand its been a long time and coming - trust me, I am with you on that, however we're getting closer to having something we can build our future from and all if not most of you have seen the beginning of it in the pre-beta sneak peek. Will 2.0 be the finished product? Answer - no. Will we try to continue to improve it in 2.1 and beyond? Answer - yes.
  19. Fred G. - try clicking Cancel - like seven times and it should open for you.
  20. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    Also - try using Chrome. The authentication step won't be there once we go live, its only the pre-beta screen gateway, which is temporary.
  21. Thanks. To be clear, I'm with PN for the long haul and hoping for the best.
  22. Glenn,
    When looking at the No Words thread on the beta site there are currently 4 posts with 3 photos. The dark gray bar across the top of the thread indicates 3 posts and 0 photos. How are these being differentiated?
    It looks much better now without the "Sign In /Sign Up".
  23. What are "vibe scores"? What are "admirers"?
  24. @ Fred - 2.0 is just the beginning of what I hope and expect to be many more updates to come. --Glenn Palm​
    That is as it should be. Even as the administration of Photo.net 1.x keeps tweaking this and that, so must it be for any subsequent versions.
    I do hope that there will be an archiving of the existing forums, and other useful parts of the existing site. The present Photo.net is a treasure, tracing its origins further back than any comparable photo site. I would hate for that treasure to be lost. I confess that I do not know how expensive archiving it might be, or how expensive it might be to allow persons to continue to access those old archives, continuing to the present.
  25. Landrum, Glenn, I've twice tried to access the beta test by following the instructions on my invitation but all I get is a page with a bunch more links, none of which pertain to Photo.net. What could I be doing wrong? Why not simply provide a direct link to the test? Best, Len Marriott.
  26. Well I have a different issue. The link works for me. Used the 2 codes, so far so good. But then I can't sign in... says email or password not valid. OK I'm an idiot and have forgotten my password as I let it be stored on site in the past. I ask for it to be reset. Get the email, change passwords sign in here (old site) everything is cool. Go to new version 2.0, same problem....invalid...invalid...invalid....
  27. Landrum, Glenn, I've twice tried to access the beta test by following the instructions on my invitation but all I get is a page with a bunch more links, none of which pertain to Photo.net. What could I be doing wrong? Why not simply provide a direct link to the test? Best, Len Marriott.​
    Len, I'm sorry, but I don't know what the problem is.
  28. Landrum, Here is where takes me. Link: What am I doing wrong? Best, Len.
  29. Len,
    Odd, for sure. I get there by hi-liting the beta site url in the message sent from admin. Then I right click to open in a new window. Have you tried this?
  30. I am having troubles...took several navigation attempts before I found the NO WORDS forum and then I can't seem to upload a photo.
  31. Laura, thanks for your input. Doesn't work for me. Guess I'll just wait until the new site is a fait accompli. Best, Len.
  32. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @Len - I will reach out to you directly to find the problem and fix it. Once we figure out why you can't see it we will post what the issue was here so it may help others.
  33. Glen, Thanks for the personal note. I have replied to you. Still no luck. Just responding here so others will know it is likely my failure to comprehend. (20th century mentality in the 21st century) I'll wait for the new version. Best, Len.
  34. @ Glenn, additional info that may or may not be helpful for you to know about my issue. I am running a window 8.1 computer with Chrome as my browser. I was over at my son's house earlier today and had him try to log me into the new beta site. He's on windows 10 with an Edge browser. Same "Your email or password was incorrect. Please try again." message as I get here at home. I then had him try to log into my account on the existing photo.net (this) site. Worked perfect!
  35. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @Doug - I'm fairly sure its because you reset your password on the live site and that new password is not synched yet with the beta site. As of now we only synch the two once a week as all uploads and contributions made to beta are only for testing and will not make the live site. I'll set up a test account for you.
  36. Thanks Glenn!
  37. Glenn, Doug, Not sure now if it is my fault. I too am running Windows 10 & use Firefox. Could be part of the problem. Of course, I've never had a problem logging into Photo.net with Windows 8.1 or Windows 10. Hmmm, curious! Perhaps I'll try again in a week or so. Best, Len.
  38. I was able to get on the site briefly a couple days ago, but I was unable to get into any of the discussion sites. I tried the beta test PWs I was sent and also my regular sign-on information. The site wound up freezing and I was unable to close it. I eventually had to totally close Safari to escape. I haven't tried further as of yet today, but I did want to report this. I'm running MAC OS X.
    The images are very clear and snappy looking, but I haven't had time to explore ease of use yet. I was hoping for a tutorial on navigation (it may be there and I haven't yet found it).
  39. So when you go to the test site, the first thing you see is a blown-up portion of one person's picture, with a "heart" and the word "inspire" below it? Then, when you go to your personal page, the first thing you see, again, are enlarged portions of some of your pictures? Maybe these pictures are from the first gallery on your personal site?
    The current Photo Net is a little plain looking. I can deal with that. I can't really deal with the beta test site's attempt to make things look "inspiring" or whatever.
    The grumpy middle-age man's take on the beta site is that he's not thrilled by what he sees.
  40. I'm with you Martin. The Drudge Report is one of the most visited sites in the country and it looks just like the current photo.net.
  41. Reddit is even more ugly and mind boggling difficult to navigate and it gets mentioned often on cable TV news feeds.
    What are they doing wrong?
  42. Cosmetically nice. Substantively, I am more interested in that aspect of course, so I will look at the learning and educative areas the most... I went to the Learn section and I watched the video info on RAW and JPEG. Initial Reaction = Just a little too scripted and way too short to be really well done. There needs IMO to be a more polished approach from a professional user with real world recommendations , and featuring with introduction and face of the teacher as well as a more engaging script.

    I realize folks have little time anymore, we think 3 minutes is all we want, but PN should not cater to the 'fast food' mentality. Not a critique so much as a quick reaction, Glenn. . More as I get into it, Glenn. Not to forget, we are I think pleased with the progress in the design and the big face lift.

    I will look for some of the action responses in 2.0 to the community suggestions oft made. Can you give a rundown on what the line item changes we can expect? A guide to before and after goals I mean?

    I am personally not inclined to compare PN against other online sites in my assessments personally..not a competitive game for me. Name Media may have different approach however so maybe there is a method to seeing this version against the state of art whatever that means. Terminology should never talk down to the audience, and I mean use of phrases like "vibe score" or even "adult content." I assume you mean NSFW or Nude Content. So heck say so please, when you redraft verbage...please..

    Goals of changes in my minds eye are simple but cogent 1) remove dis-satisfiers 2) Develop new engaging content . And just review and revise the forum list. 3) Have educative material that is probing and valuable to all levels of expertise.4) Make it easy to post and get photos on line without arbitrary size limits once needed in the old days.... Good luck, team members, hang in there!.. And I will as well..gs
  43. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    I went to the Learn section and I watched the video info on RAW and JPEG. Initial Reaction​

    Gerry, this is on the current site as well. Not that it changes your comments, but it isn't unique to the beta site.
  44. I don't think there is anything on the beta site that's not on the current site. The form and function may be different but I don't think there is any additional new content there yet. In fact there's less content since I don't think it's tracking the current site in real time. I presume when 2.0 goes live it will carry a snapshot of the the content at that time (however I'm not involved in the changeover so I don't know that for sure).
  45. Bob, do you know if any of the mods and you yourself are beta testing 2.0?
  46. Just wishful thinking but I was hoping the new look and design of PN 2.0 would retain its columnar appearance and resemble something more like this old publication... http://www.google.com/search?q=u%26lc&newwindow=1&biw=1529&bih=949&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsARqFQoTCJyK9qa248cCFQSTDQodcFAJDg
    ...just replace the text blocks with photos and you're done. Well, almost. They published their last issue in 1999 and in 2005 someone published a book compiling some of the best layouts with some copies now selling for over $100 on Amazon. It's now a collectors item I'm guessing.
    While hunting for a specific font from the good 'ol days of graphic design I came across a chart that lists fonts specific for web designers which made me realize there are limits to design motifs and layouts in order to make it compatible with browsers and web downloading.
  47. Got a fresh look at 2.0 after being away from it for a while. Just thought I'ld add some positive feedback to balance out my previous critical comments.

    Love the monotype font as I type in the "Post A Response" box which is now at the top of the page, NICE. The response posted, but it's kind of confusing finding it since it's at the bottom and hidden. I had to click "Replies" box to un-collapse the list while other posts are showing above it. I guess that's to save scroll time with long threads.
    Spell check works. Lot of white space to the right, guess that's for ad placement.

    I'm warming up to the new design. Really like the dark slate blue background around my gallery photos. It makes them look a lot better than I remember. Less clutter and a "View" counter. That's really good! No more tabbed interface for "Critiques" & "Details". They're listed to the right of the image in vertical column layout. The organization of the layout design is almost similar to my "ImagePro" site without the slide show display.
  48. Tim - not actively testing at the moment but I've had access to the site for a while, as have some other moderators. I've looked at it and tested out a few functions and made a few comments but I don't know if it's ready for true beta testing quite yet. For that it needs to be 98% finished, the other 2% coming from beta test feedback bug fixing.
    It seems to be in more of an alpha testing phase right now but I don't know for sure. When the beta testing phase starts that's really allowing a group users to beat on the fully functioning site and seeing if they can break it or they have trouble using it. It's more of a bug finding exercise than a feature evaluation.
  49. My invitation to the beta site must have gotten lost in the mail.
  50. I really like the look and feel of the new site. Have not found any hiccups or glitches. Things "seem" to load faster.
    Gordon, I could be wrong, but I think only paid subscribers got the invite.
  51. Bob, this is the first beta test I've ever done on anything code related. My graphics background made me react to the look and design of the site. I understand the PN administration's priority on beta testing for functionality over form.
    I see character in the current Photo.net that's made it different from all the other sites like an old friend "The Continental" donning a pipe and smoking jacket switching to haute couture only it's the same suit everyone else is wearing and thus somewhat losing its character of distinction.
    It's got to be done. I'm seeing a lot of form and function updating of other media outlets happening currently especially Time Warner Cable's switching to all digital and offering those without digital boxes a free converter and promising better picture and sound. Scrolling the program menu with my remote has picked up speed considerably.
  52. http://www.qa.aws.photo.net/photo/15119956/p1013267%252C-adj-%2528adj-feb-2012%2529%252C-smaller
    So what is a "vibe score"? For instance, the above picture on the beta site has a "vibe score" of 96.
    And it has 5 "admires"? What are they?
    Do vibe scores and admires exist in Photo Net now?
    Grumpy middle-aged man here again: So when I first sign in on the beta site, I see a picture of . . . bubbles. Why should I want to see bubbles when I sign in, for god's sake?!
  53. And where is the "most recently submitted photo for critique" on the beta site? Honestly, it is grumpy middle-aged man's favorite aspect of Photo Net, as currently constituted, to be able to post pictures and see them, however fleetingly, on the home page.
  54. Martin,
    Since nobody has answered your questions in many hours, I'll take a stab at them.
    1. Vibe. NO idea, wondered about that one myself.
    2. Admire. I'm "guessing" it's what it says. Somebody admires it, similar to a facebook "like".
    3. No, they don't exist now on PN.
    Your second unanswered post. Photo.net 2.0 is NOT "live". As I understand it, it's not even really in beta form yet. Pre-beta if you will. Only "some of us" get to see and use it. With that in mind, submitting a photo for critique (if it's even possible) would be pretty much pointless, IMO
  55. I still would like a brief laundry list of the accepted recommendations from past surveys and recent bitch lists that have been judged useful and will be adopted in the updates, now and in the offing....Why? That would provide to the simple minded but pure of heart like some of us a guidepost for evaluating the look and the feel of any beta proposal.

    Now any change is applaudable since the well has been getting dry of some time and now it looks like rain... Change aimed at what is keeping so many smart folks from getting more engaged is surely the goal, am I wrong or half right?. That is the grail surely . We will not nitpic graphics or maybe we will. Or try to crash the site. I leave that to the site wonks and I am sure there will be many that have such skill.

    I trust this will be read as constructive and encouraging, Glenn. As intended. I will be around when the beta goes up as well and after the dry run...best and aloha to all back in beantown. -g-
  56. Martin,
    If you post an image for critique on the beta site you'll see it on the entire top page of the critique section. If you look under the "Explore" tab, you'll see "Seeking Critique" Go there. The most recent image submitted fills the page. Scroll down and you'll see others. No, they don't seem to make it to the front page, but the entire top of a page......does that do anything for grumpy mid aged manhood?
    No idea what "vibe" score is. I've asked and not gotten an answer. Social media influence perhaps? No one seems to know. It doesn't feel left over from the 60's when we knew what good or bad vibes were.
    Agree with Doug, "Admires" may be similar to "likes", whatever they are. I recall many comments in the past where folks expressed a desire for a "like" button on posts. Maybe it's a way to express an anonymous opinion without words.
    The bubbles are at the top of my portfolio. I'd like to be able to put the image of my choosing there and maybe that's in the future. Maybe they had to put something in that space and bubbles seemed appropriate.

    It's good to be able to kick the tires on the new site, whether alpha or beta. It's a positive sign that something is in the works.
    A question about images posted on the beta site. Is there a size limit. If so, what is it? It would be helpful to know. Thanks.
  57. Martin,
    I just figured out how to get rid of the bubbles. In the portfolio view, hover the mouse over the blue box with belt buckles. Don't click on the photo, just make that blue box open. You'll see an option to "Set Photo Cover". Click on that and the photo will replace the bubbles. YEAH!
  58. + Laura, well said.
    I am wondering (and of course this would mean more work for the elves, sorry) if it would not be prudent for Glen or someone on the team to make up a quick survey so that most of the feedback can be more clearly appraised. After reading all the posts I think most folks would appreciate a simple way to give their comments and suggestions, but could just my research background influencing me.
    For myself, I would agree it is quite Flickr or Viewbug like, but maybe that's what photogs expect these days. I made PN my home back in 2009 and I have no intention of shifting house. What I really like is the ability to see how many views and comments my images have received, especially after posting an image for critique. That's a HUGE improvement over the current system. I will be sending my feedback to Glenn when I can get my head around it all a bit better.
  59. Thanks for clearing things up for us Laura! I've only been looking around on a test account Glenn "graciously" set up for me because I'm an idiot! My word NOT Glenn's! I am patiently waiting for a reset to occur so I can "do" things on the site.
    The bubbles would not be my choice for the photo in that spot, but they don't bug me too bad. I can't see any "blue box with belt buckles" anywhere. I've hovered over everything else and don't come up with a "Set Photo Cover". I'm guessing I just don't have that with this test account...I can wait! :)
  60. Will I have a home page, with a list of all my galleries, as I do now? That's a basic feature that I think is needed and that I don't see in the beta version.
    And when I scroll through the thumbnail-size images in a gallery, I see rectangular crops of each picture, which I personally find incredibly annoying.
    Please tell us that we will each have a home page similar to what we have now and that thumbnail images will not be cropped.
    Laura, I tried to follow your advice, but maybe I'm just not a good mouse hoverer. I didn't find a way to change the bubbles to something else. But you did it, so I guess it can be done.
  61. Here is a screen shot of the blue box (they look like belts with buckles to me). This is on the Portfolio page, not on the Gallery page. Hope this helps.
    The same blue box in Gallery doesn't have the same capability. Hopefully that will be fixed. We should be able to submit to critique from within a gallery.
  62. I think I've figured out why Martin and I can't change the "bubble" photo. Laura's screen shot looks like she's uploaded some of her photos to the new site. I have NOT...therefore there is nothing to change it to?
  63. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    "set cover photo" is the function that will change the bubbles out into your own personalized background using the photo you have chosen.
  64. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    Hi all - i am drafting a FAQ to help answer all/most questions all at once. Please send any questions you have to me directly - if you have a question that is frequently asked question it will be addressed through the FAQ - if its not a FAQ, then I will try to respond to you directly.
  65. Actually, no, photos weren't added to beta, they were already there, just as they are in the current site.
    Glenn, I think the FAQ is a good idea.
  66. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    I don't want you to think I'm ignoring your questions - I'm working on a FAQ to address all frequently asked questions. We will have a mouse over explanation of Vibe soon....but Vibe score is a numerical representation of the amount of attention the photo is garnering on photo.net taking into account all components of engagement for a photo. Certain components are weighted heavier than others, so a view is not equal to a comment or critique or a admire or favorite. So if a photo has a high number of views, admires, comments, critiques, favorites, etc it will score higher. A vibe score of 99 means its in the top 1% of photos garnering attention on photo.net. We will be recording the peak vibe scores and displaying. All soon to be former ratings have been converted into admires under the following scale - a 7 under the old rating system will be a full admire in 2.0, a 6 rating is a .75 of an admire, a 5 is a half of an admire...and so on. Trending (under the explore tab_ allows all uploads (not private photos) a 3 day stage to get exposure - the more views, comments, admires favorites it gets it goes higher on the trending page. 3 days is something we can make longer or shorter depending on how it tests out. If we start getting 50000 uploads a day we will have to shorten that time period and change how the components are weighted. Working on FAQ - please feel free to send questions to me.
  67. Thanks for the clarification Laura! There are NO photos anywhere on my "test account" (other than the bubble picture) Glenn setup for me to "look around" (Glenn's words) I also don't see "set cover photo" anywhere. NO BIG DEAL...honestly! I'll just wait for the reset to occur in another week or two so I can use my real account. It was "my" mistake and I'll live with it! :)
  68. This version appears to load a little faster than the previous one from about a year ago which was excruciatingly slow; or is it simply due to Windows 10.
    I have found the site to be more cluttered with superfluous information and text I don't want to see, and more difficult to construct a mental map of the site so that I can always know where I am.
    I can browse for an hour and still not feel like I've gotten a sense of what Photo.net is about, and part of this is because I have no means of quickly seeing members associated with content - it takes effort, and one has to deal with the slow loading.
    To be honest, if I was a new user, I'd probably give up pretty quickly because the site isn't offering me any sense of affinity toward it, and at today's fast pace everyone expects, I suspect few are going to have the patience to develop the affinity on their own over days.
    What I'd like to see is something more streamlined and compacted so I can see more in less time, and experience a painless process in exploring the thousands of users and their content.
    Oddly enough, the new site has made me appreciate the site we're currently on even more because I can access content quickly, so in my view, maybe a marriage of the old site with a "prettied up" interface is all that's required, or even preferred.
  69. Vibe score is a numerical representation of the amount of attention the photo is garnering on photo.net taking into account all components of engagement for a photo. Certain components are weighted heavier than others, so a view is not equal to a comment or critique or a admire or favorite. So if a photo has a high number of views, admires, comments, critiques, favorites, etc it will score higher.​
    This is really cool, but I wonder if it will turn photo appreciation on PN into a sport where too much focus is placed on the score numbers. I think a comment/critique should be considered the heaviest weighted component since it shows there is a real human taking an interest in the photo over clicking on of buttons by anonymous folks.
    I do hope though a similar graphic depicting a collection of appreciation buttons accompanies photos uploaded in discussion forums even if they are instructional or to demonstrate a technical issue. Lula has a click counter for such images that at least indicates if anyone is benefiting or even interested in the sample or instruction based image.
  70. I've just changed my profile pic and it was very easy. Thanks again Laura for the screen shot!
  71. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @Michael - Thank you for your thoughts.
    Speed it should/will dramatically improve once we go live as there will be more horsepower behind it. Try not to judge too harshly based on current speed of pre-beta site although I know its hard.
    Navigation - We have feedback from new users on current site that our current navigation is overwhelming in that there are just too many choices in terms of where to go. We would agree that a power user of current site will know exactly where to go to get what they need because they are higher on the learning curve, however we have found that for new users on current site that curve is longer than it should be. Simplified & Streamlined - We have taken 9 tabs on current site to 3 tabs in 2.0.
    Explore Tab - The goal of the explore tab is to help you find the photos that you what you want quickly. In 2.0 you can find quickly recent uploads from the entire community by going to either Explore>browse by category>recent photos OR Trending which is a 3 day stage for all public photos. As of now, on our current site your photo does not make the gallery (therefore gets little to no exposure) unless you make available for ratings or critiques. In 2.0 if you make it public (which is the default) and categorize it, you will get significantly more exposure as defined by views, admires, favorites, comments, critiques, etc. This exposure is the catalyst for meaningful discussions - creating connections, learning from peers - as we put it on the home page - discover, develop and discuss photography.
    Learn tab is where our articles will reside and our plan there is to still generate original content BUT also to curate articles from other well known sources, which we will be able to do much easier on the new CMS (content management system). We believe this will be a huge plus for our community!
    Community Tab/Forums - we are bringing over every single word ever written in our forums so the archive will exist.
    Last but not least "member center" which is where you will manage your account from A-Z. Here in addition to viewing, editing and uploading to your own portfolio, you can easily find recent uploads of photographers you follow (ones that inspire you, that you've made friendships with etc), but also put your photography on the critique stage (again easily found off Explore Tab - "seeking critiques"). To start subscribers will have a max of 20 photos they can put up on stage for critiques, they can swap out critique requests so if one photo is not getting the kind of activity they were seeking, they can replace it with another photo they want critiques from the community on. Our goal was to we keep the "seeking critique" stage fresh with a ever evolving supply of photography that we can all learn from and become more enlightened photographers. Learning from your peers is central to what photo.net all about and we feel as though again - this speaks to our messaging of discover, develop and discuss as found on the home page.
    I don't know if this helps but thought I'd share some of our thoughts on current site versus 2.0 in the hope that you can see 2.0 through the eyes of the people that will be building photo.net hopefully for many years to come. Oh can't forget - and iOs and Android apps coming in v2.1 so you can enjoy photo.net across all screens! That was not possible on our current platform, however it is in 2.0+.
  72. Radical (or not-so-radical) idea:
    Make some area for visibility of photos with fewest "admires" and lowest scores. Those are the photographers who will likely benefit most from visibility and the comments that come from such visibility. Also, since popularity (high scores) doesn't often correlate with good photography, some of the lowest scorers will be the most interesting and innovative photos. I know I'd be much more likely to want to look at photographers that are NOT popular than photographers that are, so setting aside at least a corner for the non-popular might be a really good idea, not in terms of mass appeal and typical contest-like numerology but in terms of interesting potential for growth and for seeing stuff that's more outside the mainstream.
  73. I like that idea a LOT, Fred!
  74. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @Fred - those will be easy to find in one of a few places - 1.) Explore>trending which will be home to all new uploads of public photos for time period TBD but to start 3 days and then by 2.) easily sorting by date by vibe in Explore>BrowseByCategory>Recent Images. but also 3.) if you find a photographer you have not come across before that peaks your interest - you can easily sort their entire portfolio by date, views, vibe, comments, favorites and admires - both most to least and least to most.
  75. Glenn, will it also be possible to sort 1.) & 2.) both most to least and least to most ?
  76. +1 Fred!
    Will there be a way to just search for images by view, admire, favorite numbers or overall score numbers?
    That would seem a lot easier to implement than embarking on a forensic style sorting investigation on new uploads of public photos having to count back a numbers of days they're no longer new uploads which I fail to understand how those low numbers would indicate lack of popularity over just not being on the site long enough for anyone to notice.
    Besides, I couldn't clearly understand Glenn's three methods of finding unpopular images.
  77. Thanks for your explanation, Glenn. Much appreciated.
    The new site is without a doubt a massive undertaking and there's simply no pleasing everyone, so I do understand the value judgments you and the team must make in order to arrive at an acceptable compromise.
    I hope I wasn't overly blunt and will be looking forward to further enhancements.
  78. Glenn, my point wasn't so much about how we, as users, will choose to filter through photos on whatever numerical bases are available. It's more about how the site positions things and messages to the users what's available and potentially worthy of notice. I'm considering that there should be some resources put toward actively supporting beginners and less popular photos. For example, we currently have a "Beginner Forum" for questions but beginners are consistently reminded that it's not a place to ask for critique of individual photos. There may well be a need on PN for a critique forum specifically for beginners, who are not going to get a lot of attention within the overall sea of more experienced photographers but where I'll bet a bunch of more generous experienced photographers will go to engage with beginners who show an interest in learning and asking questions about their photos specifically. It's not about users utilizing various filtering mechanisms to try and acquaint themselves with such photographers. It's about the site deciding whether such a specific place would be of benefit and is warranted.
    I also can envision a curated forum which highlights lesser-known and less-popular photographers who are doing things that, without some site-supported recognition, will not get seen simply because these photographers are out of the mainstream and not doing what generally passes for appreciated work. A place where a lot of interested users might go precisely to be exposed to work they might not otherwise recognize or pay attention to. Work that might not stand out to a lot of people unless it was pointed out to them. Maybe there would even be some introductory commentary by a "curatorial" entity of some type. That's often what galleries and museums do. They expose us to relative unknowns and get us to take a look at something we probably wouldn't have found on our own. There are photographers on PN who are passing by unnoticed because they don't do a lot of networking, don't give out a whole lot of critiques, don't participate in contests, in short don't play a lot of the games that will get one seen but who are nevertheless doing worthwhile, compelling, and interesting work. I think the site has a quiet and somewhat hidden resource there for showcasing such work and adding a dimension that is not popularity based. If PN wants to be a premier photography site, it might do well to invest a bit in highlighting and even pushing some of its more esoteric photographic strains.
  79. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @ Fred - I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions on ways we can welcome new comers, beginners to our community. As you can imagine, supporting beginners and new comers to PN is top of our list of growing the site and community in the future. Your ideas are ones we can do and even expand upon soon after we launch so lets keep the ideas and discussion on this topic flowing, we're all ears on this subject of welcoming new users.
    On current site - its not uncommon to get emails from newbies on asking why their photos aren't getting the kind of exposure they thought they'd get and its because (again on current site), unless you make available for ratings or critiques they do not appear in the gallery. They are in effect a needle in a haystack at that point - unless they network and/or learn that they must submit for critiques or ratings. We have emails that go out new users with instructions on how to use photo.net effectively, but those don't always get read thus the gap. We have plans for expanded customer service resources that include chat so questions can be asked and answered in real time. In 2.0 if the newbie uploads their work will get exposure by default - the same obstacles don't exist as they do on the current site. All this said - we want the ideas to keep coming on ways we can effectively welcome new comers to the site. Additionally, we are also working on ways to bring back some of the photographers that don't visit us as often anymore...starting by asking them to test out the new stage reaching out to a number of photographers individually asking them for feedback. So keep it coming, we're all ears.
  80. Copy of PN message I sent directly to Glenn . . .
    I appreciate the fact that you included me in the group selected to review 2.0. Quite honestly, all I've done so far is to take a very quick browse. As a result, I really can't offer anything concrete, much less more meaningful, at this time. However, I must say that the larger presentation of sample images really grabbed me.
  81. Glenn - Is the vibe score part of the retooled rating system that's been mentioned/promised from time to time before?
  82. Will PN 2.0 be utilizing Lightroom's publishing service?
  83. Lots of messages, but I couldn't find information about the launch date of the new site. Glenn.. Any thoughts about that?
  84. I honestly don't get what the new site is supposed to be. I find it confusing and not very inviting.
    Below are Michael Chang's words. I repeat them here, because I can't say it any better myself:
    "I have found the site to be more cluttered with superfluous information and text I don't want to see, and more difficult to construct a mental map of the site so that I can always know where I am.

    I can browse for an hour and still not feel like I've gotten a sense of what Photo.net is about" [emphasis added].
  85. I was thinking about an option in the profile settings, which maybe could bring back the "retro/old school"-mode, if someone doesn't like the new version. Maybe it's not possible to create, I don't know..just a thought.
  86. I do not have time to do a comprehensive comment on your project so I will have to feed in as much as I can in a mere a la carte way, and trust it might spark a thought or two.

    I spend more time in forums than I do in critiques latyely so I am not engaged enough to get excited by "vibe" score although that seems a bit loony of a title if you want to know.

    Now in heading to the forums we are all geared to look for, the new site appears to be restrictive and more fenced off than the old. What I suggest is a reshuffling and recombinant form of the old standby categories and clarification ... For example Mirrorless is fine and understood, and we may not need an old Olympus or micro 4/3 one unless, perhaps OM legacy Olympus but then that one fits in Modern Film Cameras,- this will take some thinking through more than I can digest too, and consolidation and rationalization may at first rub some users wrong,-maybe a lot who have got used to the old byways,- but hey. Perhaps a better ID of what the forums cover. And maybe a textual lead to the terms of content and the key moderator for same.

    Another idea for trial that has been on my mind is this- that it might be nice to see a feature that constitutes a photo essay all on one page. Number of images to be limited to six perhaps. As a basis for weekly discussion.

    On that same subject, I will toss out what might be a grenade. Is it against fair use for established images to be displayed for discussion purposes. Would Steichen family trust objec? Would that be dangerous ground. The lawyers need to check that out. Last couple thoughts for today: Get the programmers to allow the https form of URL. Stat. And permit sizes larger than 700 to be downsized without a link, a pain in the whatsis.

    I did not notice or look, but assume you will make it easy, ie without keyboard calisthenics, to put in italics again like in the old days. Wishing you and the team well. We hang together. ( Not separately. ) A community of 'oldtimers' does appreciate the size of the project.
  87. For a technical discussion site that I found really easy to navigate is this one for an internet streaming group of products. and their users and fanciers... With a quick lead- in to the question on offer. Possibly headlined and even edited some or abbreviated by the moderator. Yet easy to find the topic and see what is the latest answer or advice or age of the matter and a link to other sources. . Simple. Effective. Un glamorous. Navigable like a spreadsheet chart a bit.

  88. If photo.net is going to attract anyone except the few hundred old guys (I'm not sure the number is that large, but let's assume it is) that currently hang around a dramatic difference has to be created. The new site does that, and as I emailed Glenn, I think it does it well. I've been involved in a few major website design changes as part of the design team, and I've obviously experienced it myself many times over the past 15 or so years as websites have evolved. Many of them I hated to start with, but I've never abandoned a website because of the look-and-feel changes. We get used to the new look much more quickly than people want to admit, and quite frankly this new site should not be aimed at us old-timers. If it is not aimed at new users, then perhaps we should just fold the tent and quietly steal away - this site can not continue as-is, where-is, in my opinion.
  89. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @martin h - maybe you missed my comments made on Sep 09, 2015; 11:49 a.m. answering Michael Chang's post. I need to ask....What is photo.net to you? Why do you come here? Not to over simplify....but is it to discover, develop and discuss photography? Because that is in a nutshell what photo.net hopefully is, i largely believe has been...and our hope....always will be. But please tell me - what is photo.net to you?
  90. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @ David - I had to laugh. Trust me we wouldn't be going through all this effort if we were down to a few hundred, and as you can imagine we're trying our best to please everyone, but realize at the same time that is a tall task. Our hope and expectation is that our (as you put it) "old timers" can be mentors to new audience, teach what you have learned, nurture and fuel younger generations passion for photography. 2.0 was built to be a platform for people to become inspired by other photographers, watch what they do (by viewing recent uploads easily found in the member center) feel comfortable asking one other for advice, enjoy the art and the science of photography. We hope and expect that 2.0 will be a community for all walks of life that have an interest and passion for photography...regardless of age, gender or any other segment. People use this site in many different ways - some use only the forums, (some of those aren't here for the right reasons and would prefer to discuss guns, politics, religion, etc). Some read forums, some participate once they are comfortable. It may be a surprise to some but we have regular members of the site don't even venture into the forums - they spend their time viewing photos and reading what is written - experimenting on their own & sharing in the galleries. In terms of numbers (because I know you are all wondering) - we get over 3M visitors worldwide with over 12M-15M page views/month. Upwards of 20% of our traffic is now through mobile devices - take a look around - many people (sadly) use their phones...maybe too much. Walk down the city street, take notice how many people are looking at their phones. Personally I think it takes away from what could be (I would consider) normal conversations you have with the people around you...but that is a discussion for another day. Point is - we're not a few hundred - people use this site in many ways, not just the forums. We hope 2.0 will be used and accepted by new and old members - even those that want to use photo.net on those dang blasted cell phones.
  91. Thanks for that insight, Glenn. When you see the same names repeatedly it certainly appears to be a small group. I'm glad there are larger numbers, and I'm especially glad that much of the interaction is about actual, posted images and explanations. That's really where the rest of the net has gone, and that's where the competition lies - if p.net doesn't attract someone, they will go elsewhere. Again, I'm happy with the redesign, and find most of the non-technical issues to be relatively unimportant - we'll get over the look-and-feel change pretty quickly once we figure out which clicks get us to what we want to see.
  92. I want to comment on one thing you mentioned, Glenn. ....on some old timer ( chronologically at least though still keen of mind)interests and your planned offerings.

    >>(some of those aren't here for the right reasons and would prefer to discuss guns, politics, religion, etc). <<

    Q:I take this to suggest as we move on to V 2.0, tha even t the idea of restoring an Off Topic Forum is off the table, pau? . Is that a correct reading. . -gs-
  93. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @ Gerry - The short answer is no, off topic is not a part 2.0. Photo.net is a site that is focused on the subject of photography. We have struggled to answer the question - What place do those subjects have on a site dedicated to photography? We can't find a reason why they are relevant to our site. Furthermore, we've proven in the past that all those subjects do is create problems between members and turned off new members. In the end we determined that it was more of a liability than an asset to our community. I know there are some that feel differently and don't like the decision - however there are many that agree with this decision. Hopefully that answers your question, even though it wasn't likely the answer you wanted.
  94. Glenn,
    I'm kind of surprised to hear that there are so many Photo Net users (I thought the makeover was an attempt to keep the site viable), but if there are, why make such radical changes?
    The beta site looks and feels like a totally different site than the current Photo Net. Really, if not for the name, I don't think I'd recognize it.
    I think Photo Net's current home page is basically pretty well designed, although it does look a little dated. It's like the home page of a newspaper: there's a little bit to read on the home page itself, there are links to other parts of the site, there's a link to your personal home page, etc. It works well.
    Does the beta site even have a home page? There just seem to be these oversize bands of content that you have to scroll through. I feel like I'm sitting too close to the screen at the movie theater.
    David makes the point that people get used to redesigned websites a lot quicker than they think they will, and I think that's true in most cases, but, for instance, I'm still annoyed by the redesign of CNN's home page (and go there less often as a result of it) and the Washington Post's home page (although that's a recent fait accompli).
    In my opinion, the redesign represents a wish to imbue the site itself with an inspirational sort of tone. I'm not in favor of that. I think the site itself should have a more neutral tone.
    As for disallowing discussions of subjects off the topic of photography, I think that's just silly, and my sense is that it's probably bad business. A little diversity in subject matter is appealing to me, at least. A focus on nothing but photography can sometimes feel rather narrow.
    p.s. Glenn, I will try to get back to your question, "What does Photo Net mean to you?" at some point.
  95. Thanks Glenn. As long as it was a considered decision. I found it helpful to have a place to learn about many non controversial things. But I do recall some nasty food fights. Understood. I was thinking yesterday where can I ask about a cel phone port I think is called a 20 pin made by Samsung which no one younger than 40 would likely know about. ( and Google was not so much my friend there, as they are following their advertisers and 20 pin was more an EU thing I do believe ) It leads to a fascination area of standardization and proprietary ports in a lot of photo products. No real place to fit it in the forums, but hey I have to agree with you. Meaning being doctrinaire is sometimes the way we have to go...to avoid more problems than attracting interest. Like the loss of food discussion which is not so easily found or is it, I am not a foodie, but many here are. And the contribution of the world wide community on items in passing.... Anyway, I got it and I thank you for giving the OT a shot and thought or two. Aloha. Gerry.
  96. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    Like the loss of food discussion which is not so easily found or is it​

    It's very easy to find and people who want to read about and discuss food can go to a site like http://www.chowhound.com/m and to www.epicurious.com, and to http://www.foodnetwork.com/ There is no discussion of photography at these sites, there is discussion of food as it should be. Most of us that are into food and cooking know these sites. And if we want to discuss photography, we go to photography sites.
  97. I would assume that the community posting guidelines are being re worked as part of the overall overhaul process along the way. I already mentioned the question of the 700 size limit. And also I will reiterate the thing about fair use for discussion in discussion of photos pages, where fair use may be now an option. True we here are sensitive to misuse of our work, but perhaps the Terns of Use could allow member opt in to the site for showing a photo vs just a link to it. Something to ponder.

    Even for the work of Cole Weston or Larry Schiller, commercial /pro photographers (I would for instance have enjoyed to look at several of the photos that Fred G put on one page to compare them on the page as we evaluated in discussion about same. even by ones all over the Internet and common as houseflies. I am just suggesting that learning and discussion is a fair use that would not be decried. When a professor shows a photo on the classroom screen is a good case in point... Or is it, I will let the professionals rule o that one)

    In a Facebook world are we a little too what shall we say 'dancing on eggshells' in this regard.. Is the FBI on our tail or do we have to be like Caesar's wife as photographers.... I pose this because I really do not know but am interested. The photos at the bottom of this page are displayed and not linked, and it bothers no one. Just saying.

    Josh wrote the following some while back. See if it still is good doctrine---Recognize better safe than sorry. No harm in opening up some idea for consideration. Can be 'on the table' i.e. tabled as discussion, for ever after..:).

    "Any image you post should be your own work. If you want to reference an image shot by someone else, please link to it rather than post the image itself."
  98. How about this: "Have the recent rains helped the drought," on Chowhound.
    Posted in the "not about food" thread (although most of the posts seem to be about food in any case).
  99. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    although most of the posts seem to be about food in any case​

    Right, there's nothing about guns/nationality/photography etc.

    And that thread is very relevant to food, farming is mentioned and some of the biggest issues with the drought are around food production.
  100. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    where fair use may be now an option.​

    "Fair use" is a legal term with a legal test. If you leave it up to users, it will fail. If you don't leave it up to users, you have to pay someone to sit there and go through every single instance. It's not practical. Of course plenty of sites (pinterest being the most notable) completely ignore the issue, which is the only real alternative to not allowing posting by other people. So it's either wholesale copyright violation (unless there is a paid staff to monitor every photo posting) or it's not allowed at all. Most serious photographers would choose the latter.
  101. I would for instance have enjoyed to look at several of the photos that Fred G put on one page to compare them on the page as we evaluated in discussion about same.​
    Gerry, they wouldn't all fit on the screen at the same time anyway. But I do appreciate your wanting to do that kind of comparison, because I like to do those comparisons as well. So, what I do is open each photo in a tab which allows me to easily and very quickly tab back and forth among a few photos for comparison sake.
  102. Right, there's nothing about guns/nationality/photography etc.

    And that thread is very relevant to food, farming is mentioned and some of the biggest issues with the drought are around food production.
    Jeff Spirer [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG], Sep 18, 2015; 07:54 p.m.
    So they are discussing some of the big issues, which is what I think we should be able to do on Photo Net. Would make it a more interesting site, in my opinion.
  103. Martin, I think the message is clear. And understandable if kind of regrettable. If all of the adults watched how they handled discussions and tempered the language managers would not have to make PN policy based on the relatively few ill tempered or adolescent tempered. I understand and accept that decision even as it is kind of unfortunate. Off Topic was a nice pleasant feature when it was nice and pleasant; meaning when it stayed cool. Also true that some subjects within the broad categories of politics and economics and social views have shown themselves touchstones for anger. Result- bad vibes in community . Not just moderator problems.
  104. I know the message is clear, Gerry. I just don't know why that has to be the message. Whereas some sites may let discussions become too uncivil, Photo Net's policy is too restrictive. I'm not a student of Photo Net discussions, but in my casual perusals I never saw anything that was even close to being truly offensive (and I've certainly seen stuff that is, elsewhere).
  105. Spearhead

    Spearhead Moderator

    So they are discussing some of the big issues,​

    The big issues relevant to their site. Why don't you join up there and post an article on guns and see how long it lasts.

    There are plenty of sites for discussing other topics. It's not that difficult to bookmark them and use the mouse on your computer to go to them.
  106. My personal opinion is that moderators should not interfere in a discussion that has gone "off topic" unless it has also become uncivil.
    Have pity on the poor discussion that just wants to go where its inclinations take it.
    FYI: I don't want to start a discussion about guns.
  107. Politics, religion, and sex...the unholy trio. Now add guns. We never touched on photography in our school and Navy dining hall either.. Martin, I observed some mean sounding, hostile, in your face uncivil talk at times in them old OT. Not much in volume but enough to cast a pall over relationships that extended beyond that forum.

    On private Facebook blogs like here one can stretch to just about any of the unholy trio with Jim Wright although the format of FB is kind of limiting for sure,


    One can get red meat discussions going via above just as an example of a free for all environment , with lots or let us say "latitude."

    But even there, the owner and designer and blogger Jim on FB keeps a tight rein on what he deems nonsense talk. A dilemma I suppose. How to give way to community input with a lid on propriety out of bounds and who decides the bounds and who mans the gates.... Josh Root admin used to close discussions that got out of hand. I am sure he did not care to do it and end a good give and take that gave more than it took or vice versa... ( I recall he privately scolded me one time some little bit of talk on line that was out of bounds, or side stepping wise, and I just didn't notice . You know..one gets worked up in the late hours..with a glass of Merlot.

    My thought here for what it is worth. As I observe from a distance, PN is fighting for a presence (ieven survival-see the long responses to Dick Arnold's post). As a top photographic meeting venue. Good. This is where I keep my personal photos at least for now. ..

    So it goes.
  108. Maybe the best way for us to stimulate what might otherwise be an Off Topic discussion of value is to make a photograph relevant to the topic, post it to our portfolios, and invite discussion of the photo and topic. I've taken part in various political, social, and cultural discussions, all related to specific photos, here on PN, with no trouble or curtailment at all. These photos weren't posted as pretenses merely to discuss something otherwise not allowed here. They were genuinely related to various topics of interest.
    Photography can be very relevant. Of course, that's up to us.
    Maybe it's not so much whether a given topic is relevant to a photography site but whether a given photo addresses something relevant. My experience has been that if I make or come across a socially, politically, or culturally relevant photo, the discussion naturally and authentically follows.
  109. Fred, you make a reasonable point.
    Gerry, you seem like such a civil-minded person that it makes me mad just to think of anyone telling you that you need to tone it down (not sure what that says about me).
    To everyone: Did you know that DP Review has an "off-topic" forum? Although I've never learned to negotiate their forums very well. Can only see one post at a time, which makes them too frustrating and time-consuming.
    Anyway, Glenn et al., I get it. You don't have to make the point again about off-topic discussions not making a comeback (unless you want to; in no way am I telling you what you should or shouldn't say!).
    Getting back to critiquing the beta site, I checked out 500px, which Tim Lookingbill referenced in a post above, and as he says, the beta site seems to share a stylistic leaning toward slickness with 500px. Doesn't seem like an aesthetic that I'd find appealing.
  110. "My personal opinion is that moderators should not interfere in a discussion that has gone 'off topic' unless it has also become uncivil."

    Most people would see things such as going to the library to practice public speaking or going to a book club to argue about sports as uncivil acts. Disregarding the rules and intentions of the site, the forum, and/or a particular thread (and, in the process, showing no respect for the other users who are here because of their interest in photography) is fundamentally selfish and arrogant behavior. It is inherently uncivil.

    If moderators didn't interfere with posts that have not become "uncivil" (by your definition), the forums would be filled with spam.
  111. You can certainly go to the library to practice public speaking in a room set aside for that use, just as you can have a discussion off the topic of photography in a forum set aside for that purpose without disturbing a purely photography-oriented discussion (or you could if it were allowed).
  112. you can have a discussion off the topic of photography in a forum set aside for that purpose without disturbing a purely photography-oriented discussion (or you could if it were allowed)

    You've conveniently ignored the fact that the off-topic forum was closed largely because of its negative effect on photography discussions and its overall negative impact on the site. As others have noted, if you have a strong desire to discuss non-photographic topics, there are plenty of other sites where you can indulge yourself. Insisting that photo.net should have such a forum is comparable to insisting that a book club should devote twenty minutes per meeting to arguing about sports, that town hall meetings should devote time to practicing opera singing, or that a science conference about quantum dynamics should have presentations on landscape photography.
  113. But possibly the book club members occasionally discuss (I hope not argue about) a book on sports, and the science conference attendees discuss the art of Eric Heller (http://www.ericjhellergallery.com/)?
    Anyway, we could go back and forth on this forever . . .
  114. James G. Dainis

    James G. Dainis Moderator

    Would there be any point to going back and forth on this forever? It has already been decided that there will be no Off Topic forum. Let me repeat that. It has already been decided that there will be no Off Topic forum. For people who have trouble with reading comprehension, have someone explain that to you.
  115. Yes, James, thank you sincerely, I think I have understood that there will be no Off Topic forum.
    So Photonet should become like a golf club where only golf can be discussed, or like a fishing tour where only fish and fishing relevant issues can be discuss. In my view a bad decision for Photonet.
    As a final salut to the now defunct Off-Topic forum, can I invite you to read a short text that our good friend Josh Root wrote a few years back concerning the Off-Topic forum:
    When I created the photo.net OT forum, I knew we would be in for some contentious threads. But the site needed a place for non-photographic stuff and to dump the political threads that tend to pop up on any forum. I'm happy that the OT forum has been as successful as it has. It's nice to be able to ask the assembled masses here "What scotch is good" or "does anyone else like NASCAR" or "How long will a dead possum stink for". It brings us a little closer together and is a great way of getting information from a source that you already trust somewhat. Every community needs a place where it can connect on something different than the main focus of the site and OT forums do that well.
    And for those of you who wish to relive the discussions in the de Off-Topic, and who might not be satisfied with just rumours about them, and for old times sake, you can still find them here, all 4833 of them : http://www.photo.net/off-topic-forum/?category=uncategorized
    Enjoy :)
  116. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    If we had the time we could provide you to numerous links of discussions that got completely out of hand that resulted in good members leaving never to return. This we all know, and I'm sure regret.
    What I can tell you is that we're open to OT returning in some form at a future date, however it won't happen we get 2.0 off the ground. BUT something that would be closely moderated yet still have some solid structure with sub-categories the topics would need to stick to in our discussions. Using the examples above....Food & Drink (for you foodies and scotch lovers amongst us), "An interesting thing happened to me today" (where you could share a funny story) hopefully with photos, Sports Lovers (NFL, Nascar, Cricket, Rugby - you name it).....having said all of this - it will be easier to do once we are on the 2.0 platform. We could have some fun coming up with interesting the sub-categories of off-topic...and we'd need a moderator to closely monitor so we don't end up in hot water again discussing live wire subjects that hit boiling points. So you're telling me there's a chance? So who wants to be OT champion and start a new thread giving us sub-category suggestions in our Site Help Forum? Please keep in mind we're not creating anything new on current site as schemas are all in place for data transfers to 2.0 so this would be a 2.1 thing for us.
  117. Glenn,
    Is there going to be a Macro Photography forum on the new site?
  118. Glenn, censuring subject within a forum instead of censuring whole forums is of course progress, but in my eyes, and I will not surprise you, not good enough!
    If you want Photonet to be filled with engaged photographers who actively live in todays multi-cultural and more and more polarized world, you should accept that we do indeed discuss subjects and we do indeed have opinions which sometimes do not please everyone. Photonet should be made in the image of the life your photography enthusiast members live and not an artificial sanitized sub-part of that world. Overall, such a life confirming strategy for Photonet gives you more members and a more active membership. Some will leave, without doubt, but many more will come. If it is not in version 2.0, let it be in version 2.1 or 2.x as you wish. Velocius firmior
  119. G-P

    G-P Administrator Staff Member

    @Laura - adding once we are in 2.0.
    @Anders - not sure what to say my friend. At this point, we will agree to disagree. Thank you for your continued support and we appreciate your feelings towards OT. A one man enter one man leave Thunderdome type of OT - it simply won't work - we've proven its a liability not an asset. We know we can't please everyone, however we'll try to please most. I've spoken my peace my OT - that is all I have on that front and I think the OT discussion has been exhausted.
  120. Glenn,
    Many thanks. It will be a good addition.
  121. Let's agree to disagree, with all respect, Glenn. One thing we do agree on though, is that the OT discussion has been exhausted here in Photonet, and for some, I'm sure, have been exhausting too.
    Good luck with 2.0.
  122. Martin, to clarify my statement. No I was not scolded for saying something uncivil. It was a talking stink about someone with someone in another forum which was judged speaking 'behind someone's back.' Code of conduct wise. Back channeling we used to call it...before back channel became de rigeur in public life :) What we might call a back fence jab at another member.

    And it was a valid point that Josh caught and called to my attention.

    I may lament the good parts of the OT which Anders has helped us recall, thanks Anders.
    The decision to cut OT was made by the moderators without consulting the membership and it was judged detrimental to the overall success of the site. Which was OK. Unfortunate, but OK.

    We could not have our desserts, because we squirted our whipped toppings at EACH OTHER like juveniles with a whipped cream squirter. So no tutti frutti.... Who can argue that it is not photography and we are after all Photo Netsky not the food channel... Never meant to be. That is why it was off topic, but no matter, worth gaining understanding of the issue. I give on that Martin,...

    New subject..By the way, Glenn, I did no research on this. I am lately thinking how nice it will be to have a quick way to highlight a quotation in forum text. To separate it easily from the content of the author. I mention it in passing. A technical item, along with the reprogramming to accept https....
  123. Gerry, just put your cursor in the text you want to highlight and click on the quote mark icon at the top of the text box you're typing in.
    Like this!​
  124. Fred, it doesn't work for me. Either it is Apple OS Yosemite, or my lack of know- how. I guess I am suggesting again that Glenn and the redesign crew make it a snaperoo. Please. Perhaps even in a different color? Reduce the disatisfiers and this is one. Or, if there is a how to /walk through guide, and no not HTML, am open.

    Just spent some time trying to quote and format a quote from another member in the Mirrorless Forum. My text just kept getting wrapped a way I did not. Can't figure it. Something is screwball. It could be me though I want to reject that idea.( Aside. Unusually hot languid temperatures for our islands. Someone wrote in the paper that if we wanted this kind of hot steamy weather we could have chosen Florida as home. But I digress, sorry) I could copy a quote in Pages, my text editor, and play with it then cut and paste it back, Nah not worth it.
  125. I seem to remember that we some months ago had discussion (between some of us!) concerning stopping using the highlighting of texts in forum discussions (too heavy, unesthetic...) and instead using "...". However, always nice to know how it is being done.
    I have no idea why it does not work for you Gerry (you have to insert a paragraph break for it to work)​
  126. Gerry, over the years, the quoting functioning hasn't worked for me with various versions of Safari, which you may be using as your browser. Safari is often incompatible with various websites. If you have another browser, like Firefox or Chrome, you might the quote function in those browsers and have better luck. As it stands now, this function is just the snaparoo you want, if you can get it.
  127. Could quotes be in a different color to set them off. Got to say that DPR's device of allowing unlimited and profliage quotes of all posts, getting to be ad nauseum replays of comments. Is annoying and slows the show. So their servers are giants, big deal.... A dumb indulgence. I use Firefox and am likely missing something so I will continue experimenting. For now, quotes will do..they work.
  128. quotes will do..they work.​
    They do.

    Do you really have trouble picking out the quotes in the gray background boxes? Being a photography site, I'm for keeping things as clean as possible so the photos stand out. I'd recommend against color quote blocks. I think gray is sufficient and less intrusive than a color.
  129. William Michael

    William Michael Moderator Staff Member

    I think web designers have to be careful when using colours to denote a default action: especially background colours for a text overlay or using different colours of texts to denote different status: those people with various degrees of colour blindness is a point worthwhile considering.
    The grey background (as we use presently) to identify a quote is simple; it works; and I believe that it does not create much difficulty for very many people.

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