For people/portraits D800 vs. D810 (or D800E)

<p>All,</p>

<p>Question from a long time Nikon user that currently uses a D800 (mostly) and a D600 (some). Thinking about swapping one or both of my cameras for a D810 since the new camera seems to answer most of my gripes about the D800.</p>

<p>My favorite subjects are my son, family, friends, and people. I deliberately chose the D800 vs D800e when they were released thinking it certainly had enough resolution for people, and I did not want to have to deal with moire' in people pics.</p>

<p>So, for those of you that have used both the D800 and D810 (or D800E) for portraits and people, which camera would you pick up off of the shelf to get the best "people" results?</p>

<p>Admit that I don't like spending a lot of time with digital post processing. The chemical darkroom was more fun for me.<br /> I want the best out of the camera results.</p>

<p>Would appreciate comments. Thank you.</p>

PS. I do shoot NEF + JPG and use NX2, But only mess with the NEF of the best shots.

<p>i haven't used either, but there's no reason to pick the d800e over a d810. if you already have a d800, only you can decide if the changes are significant to you. i would think the d800 would be more than "good enough" for people photos. but no way would i keep both a d800 and a d810, unless i needed two 36mp cameras for weddings or studio. i would probably swap the d800 for the d810 and keep the d600 for the times when absolute resolution isn't necessary. or just keep the d800 and count my blessings. </p>

<p>Robert,<br>

Capture NX2 is no longer being developed and does not support D810 NEFs. It has been replaced by Capture NX-D which is akin to View NX2. You may want to stay with a D800, which is probably way more firepower than you need for what you shoot. The D610 may actually be a more forging camera.</p>

<p>I got my D800 shortly after the release, but the direct reason I upgraded to it was that I wasn't using my back up D3 at all and anticipated that with the coming of the D800, secondhand prices for a D3 would plummet. I didn't go for to the D800E as IMO the jump from the 12PM D3 to the 36MP D800 was already a big enough step up in IQ (for the times I would should fashion in eg a studio) and on the other hand I simply don't strive for the ultimate sharpness.</p>

<p>I have looked at and read the specs and previews of the D810 with keen interest, but while I recognize the many improvements, they have not persuaded me to upgrade to it.<br>

Yes the AF has improved (especially with the group AF option) while IQ and AF has also taken a step forward, getting it closer to the D4(S). It's reputedly also is less noisy, and has an improved mirror mechanism which gives less vibrations. But if you don't especially need those improvements (and I still have a D3 for when I have to shoot action) IMO the D800 still is, even if not the latest and the greatest, a very capable and convincing piece of equipment, not only for shooting pictures of people, but IMO for any kind of photography, still offering great detail colors and DR. I have at times also used it for sports (be it with a MB D12 in DX mode for higher fps) and high ISO/bad light photography (catwalk) and if not the best, it in my experience still is on par with the D3 for AF and high ISO.</p>

<p>As far as the best of the shelf camera for shooting people, I have gone for a completely different way and got a DF.<br>

Don't get distracted by the whole retro thing, nor by all the internet hoohah about supposedly inferior AF and built. It's a nice, discrete sized body, silent with still very capable AF, more manageble sized files (18 MB vs the on a bad day 40MB+ ones of the D800) and allowing a less perfect shooting technique then the D800 where any sloppiness (of which I regularly have to plead guilty) is immediately punished. And andelight to work on with my old manual focus glass.<br>

And don't forget the IQ of the basically D4 sensor it has. I don't know what the latest DXO score for the D810 is, but until recently the DF was king of the high ISO and in my experience offers excellent color and DR even if at a lower MP count. Sure, it would be nice if it were a bit cheaper, but the fact you don't see many of them offered second hand is an indication that many of the owners don't think they overpaid.</p>

<p>My two cents.</p><div></div>

<p>This appears to be the madness that has got a grip since the coming of digital,no doubt neatly marketed by the manufacturers of cameras. As the owner of two Nikon d800s,one since they were introduced I am still delighted every time i open my images,yes the upgraded d810 will no doubt be a winner for Nikon again,but unless you really need the relatively small improvements why would you again subject yourself to to a substantial hit in the pocket to upgrade.<br>

I downloaded some full size raws from the d810 to try them with my usual workflow and in my opinion the quality gains if any are negligible. As a mainly Landscape photographer with some commercial and wedding work, going no higher than 1600 iso and mostly shooting at 100 iso locked down on a tripod,mirror lock and remote release the minor gains just don't justify the expense for me. If i was shooting a lot of video maybe the improvements to that side may warrant a closer look. My second D800 is just months old,so i think i will wait for the D900.</p>

Quick and compelling reasons for choosing the D810, especially for non flash lit portraits: better high ISO performance,

and I find the difference in the larger built in handgrip more comfortable.

 

For landscape and lit portraits, still life, and landscape work: ISO 64. Best noise/signal I've seen yet in a DSLR

<p>How do your photos actually get used?</p>

<p>I am skeptical that anyone is going to detect any differences at all in the images from any of those cameras.</p>

<p>Kent in SD</p>

<p>Ordinarily I would advice people to upgrade in roughly 4 year intervals, if you want the purchases to count. In this case it seems the D810 has a particularly rich set of improvements, no doubt Nikon feels the pressure to improve their financial performance and are trying very hard to solve customer issues.</p>

<p>One feature that I believe the D810 has that could very well make a big difference to my people photography is the automatic switching of active AF point when the camera is rotated between horizontal and vertical shooting. I find myself constantly jiggling the AF point around because I am switching the orientation of the camera and must get the AF point as close to the main subject's face as possible. This slows down my photography, and the new automatic feature should be a big help. Autofocus has reportedly also been significantly improved in other respects. The camera is said to be quieter and better damped, which should help when working in quiet interior spaces e.g. funerals, weddings, etc.</p>

<p>Many other features of the D810 seem to be geared towards maximizing the image detail in tripod based photography. These include the electronic first curtain shutter, improved damping of the shutter and mirror, which together should help achieve sharp results in more situations on tripod. Live view resolution has been improved, which helps in meticulous focusing when working on tripod. These things should be useful to landscape and macro photographers.</p>

<p>For me, I am not yet decided on the D810. I would prefer a slightly faster, slightly lower res camera (24MP, 7-8fps) for my people photography, but it has to come with Multi-CAM 3500 for me to be able to use the off-center AF tracking effectively.</p>

<p>Personally I think if you are not sure you need the D810, I would stick to what you have for now. If you do find that you want the improved AF, the quieter shutter and mirror, etc. you will know that you want it and likely not listen to anyone of the contrary opinion. ;-)</p>

<p>With regards to the optical low pass filter, my personal opinion is that 36MP is too small a pixel count to justify leaving the OLPF out, as lenses produce a lot of spatial content beyond the Nyquist frequency of this sensor. But it seems I am in the minority. </p>

<p>Interesting that you should mention portraits and the D810. Dpreview addressed this concern in this article:</p>

<p>http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-d810/8</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Moiré is not something I would worry about at all. When the D800 and D800E first came out, I made extensive comparisons between the two, capturing a lot of images of bird feather, denim, fabrics .... I had a hard time getting moir&eacute even though I was trying to get it deliberately, and occasionally you do get it even with the D800. It is very slightly worse on the D800E, but the difference between the two cameras is negligible.</p>

<p>I haven't had a chance to try the D810 yet, but as far as I can tell, it is a rather modest, mid-cycle type upgrade. If you don't have any D800-family camera (or you are adding an additional camera) and want something new, I would go for the D810. If you already own a D800 or D800E, unless money is totally a non-issue to you, it is not going to be a particularly worthwhile upgrade.</p>

<p>For me, one of these two reasons, perhaps among others, will prompt me to upgrade in the future:</p>

<ul>

<li>Nikon improves the Multi-CAM 3500 AF module to incorporate more cross-type AF points.</li>

<li>4K video</li>

</ul>

<p>It would be difficult to see any difference in images shot with any of the three bodies you are referring to and even some of the other bodies mentioned after post processing unless you are making 6' prints and looking at them from 6" away.</p>

<p><br /> Since you mention you are looking for the best IQ, you will want to consider shooting RAW and do at least a little PP to achieve your goal.</p>

<p>But if you are looking for all around improved/best performance, the D810 is the best choice.</p>

 

<p>All, Thanks for the comments so far. A few months ago, I needed to get rid of one of my 3 FX DSLRs which were the D800, D600, and D3. I posted here my likes and gripes about each of these. All of those cameras had advantages and disadvantages. I wound up selling the D3, but do miss that cameras ergonomics and focusing screen that was the best of the 3 for older manual focus lenses.</p>

<p>The D810 seems to address a lot of my issues with the D800. More accurate AF would be very welcome, I find the single greatest image quality issue with the D800 to be slightly less than perfect focus both with AF and MF lenses. I hope the D810 would generate more in focus pics with manual focus (and AF) lenses via ground glass or electronic rangefinder. A more quiet shutter and 5 FPS would be great. I never ran the D3 at over 6 FPS, anyway. My hands would enjoy the deeper grip.<br>

<br /> I like the D600 OK, but find that I wind up with a lot of out of focus shots with my favorite MF wide angle lenses, so I don't use it much. I do like the weight and softer shutter sound of the D600.</p>

<p>And, yes, I have done AF fine tune with all of my AF lenses. The out of focus comment I just made is not quite accurate. Most AF shots are in focus, but it seems that the people image with the best facial expression always seems to be the one that is slightly out of focus. Darn.</p>

Focusingscreen.com modify and sell the canon super precision screen for the D800. It gives better in/out of focus contrast for manual focus with fast lenses.

<blockquote>

<p>I use NX2</p>

</blockquote>

<p> <br>

The cameras that you own are more than adequate for portraits. The only advantage that you'll gain from the D810 is slightly better high ISO performance. <br>

<br>

Instead of buying yet another body, consider investing time learning how to use more full-featured raw processing software.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>PS. I do shoot NEF + JPG and use NX2, But only mess with the NEF of the best shots</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I guess you are using <strong>Capture NX2 ?</strong><br>

<br />If so , then be aware that the D810 is not supported by Capture NX2 , and Capture NX2 will not be updated anymore.<br />So When switching to a newer than D800(e) camera model, you might also need other software for POST ....</p>

<blockquote>

<p>So When switching to a newer than D800(e) camera model, you might also need other software for POST ....</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Sure, but since Nikon is not going to update Capture NX2 any more, unless you never upgrade your digital cameras to newer models, ever, it is merely a matter of time that you need to start using other software to open your new NEF files, as new cameras and new software capabilities are introduced.</p>

<p>Additionally, a few years down the road, perhaps new computer hardware and/or operating systems will no longer support NX2.</p>

<blockquote>

<p>Moiré is not something I would worry about at all. When the D800 and D800E first came out, I made extensive comparisons between the two, capturing a lot of images of bird feather, denim, fabrics .... I had a hard time getting moiré even though I was trying to get it deliberately, and occasionally you do get it even with the D800. It is very slightly worse on the D800E, but the difference between the two cameras is negligible.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Shun, this is the result I got the first time I used the D800E on a paid assignment. The gentleman was wearing a very deep grey coloured shirt and I had to correct the moire in over 30 8x10 prints they ordered. All different combinations of family poses so no batch processing. I agree it is not usually a problem... but it threw me for a loop! Now I know how to correct moire, another learning curve!</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

<p>Gup, please read what I wrote earlier. Even though you used a D800 with an AA filer, you may still end up with some moiré occasionally. It is not a problem specific to the D800E and D810. I also use a D7100 that has no AA filters, and I have that issue in a few rare occasions. For important images on subjects that are prone to moiré issues, the key is to capture more samples from somewhat different angles so that you have more samples to choose from.</p>

<p>The difference between the D800 and D800E is so tiny that Nikon no longer makes the distinction and only produces one D810 now, without the AA filter, unfortunately at the higher D800E price, though. And by far the worst moiré I have ever gotten was from a D2X on bird feather: http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00amZu</p>

<p>This article shows the difference between the two in terms of MTF:</p>

<p>http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/D800AA/D800AAFilter.html</p>

<p>Although both cameras show colour artifacts (the D800 AA filter is not as strong as it should be to get perfect colour), the D800 is the more accurate of the two. With the Bayer array you have the problem that if you apply a full strength AA filter to distribute colour evenly in the 2x2 array, you lose resolution. If you don't apply a filter you get wild colour. So a compromise is made between resolution and artifacts. Personally for me it is obvious that the no filter solution is not the better of the two, but equally it is obvious that not everyone has the same opinion. ;-)</p>

<p>http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6078</p>

<p>2.5 micron pixels correspond to an FX sensor with about 140MP. 1.5 micron pixels would lead to a 550MP FX sensor.</p>

I can't imagine you'll see a noticeable improvement in people photos from a D800 to a D810 unless you have incredibly

demanding requirements and are already maxing out the D800's capabilities. You'd gain much more by diving into

learning to get the most out of technique like lighting and postprocessing.

<p>Two years ago, I wrote an article comparing the D800 and D800E: http://www.photo.net/equipment/nikon/D800/d800-vs-d800e-which-to-choose/<br>

Nikon USA loaned me a D800 for like 2, 3 months while I eventually bought a D800E myself. When I had both cameras, I spent a lot of time making side-by-side comparisons on various subjects. After that, I have been using the D800E for over 2 years now. If there is any difference between the two models, it is tiny.</p>

<p>Before I decided on the D800E, I also checked with Rob Galbraith, who received the D800E much earlier: http://www.robgalbraith.com/content_page3bac.html?cid=7-11676-12555<br>

Rob told me that he had all but forgotten about an extra concerns about moiré on the D800E, but that is something you can get, with any digital camera, in some rare occasions.</p>

<p>Essentially, there is one thing the D810 can do over the D800/D800E: it'll satisfy your NAS, perhaps for a short period of time.</p>

<p>I'm new to the D800 moving up from a D700 which still sees a lot of use. I bought my camera from a professional landscape and wedding photographer. I've looked at hundreds of pictures taken with this camera and the D800E and I can't tell which is which. For me the D800 that I got for $1600 will have to last a long, long time. I don't think most amatures like myself would see a difference between a portrait taken with either camera, I know I can't. My plan is to use this camera for a long, long time. My next investment is going to be Photoshop so I can get the most out of this camera and improve my PP skills. Like you I mostly PP with NX2 but that's about to change.</p>