yet another Computer Build question

<p>With the demise of XP support i am finally caving in and deciding to getting a new machine and i am considering rolling my own with this one, primarily because i've not done it before. A couple of things that I want to clarify or make sure i understand correctly as i work out my specifications though:</p>

<ul>

<li>Lightroom (another benefit of moving up from XP is that i can use LR) will benefit from more cores than an increase in CPU speed - so if two processors are close, speed wise the one with more cores would be preferred? Balanced of course against cost. There are a couple of 6- and 8-core AMD processors that are much more cost effective than say an intel i7 quad core CPUs.</li>

<li>A good hard drive configuration would be SSD for OS and applications (including lightroom) and another drive (SSD or HDD) for LR catalogs and previews, then additional HDDs for data, backup etc. What i'm not sure of here is if the drive for LR catalogs benefits greatly from being on another SSD, and then what size is adequate for this - can a LR Catalog drive be as small as 60 or 80gb?</li>

<li>A video card should be OpenGL compliant but doesn't need to be a hugely high performing card to function well with LR or pixel level editors (i use Corel PSP currently).</li>

<li>At least 16gb of memory, more is preferable.</li>

</ul>

<p>Am I missing some crucial piece and are there other design considerations should i be thinking about?</p>

<p>I often build pc's for use at work I never build one for my own use. The reason is that it seems that it would cost me more building it myself. Also many of you don't agree with me but I can't find nice case to put all the stuff in. </p>

<p>More cores does <a href="http://www.anandtech.com/bench/CPU/25">not always equal better performance</a>.<br>

A home built PC definitely costs more, but is more fun and makes it much easier to customize. I went with a 4930K for 'future proofing', 16GB-1600, SSD for OS and programs (Corsair Neutron GTX after reading <a href="http://techreport.com/review/26058/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-data-retention-after-600tb">this article</a>) and two hard drives in RAID0 for storage/scratch.</p>

<p>Any computer I built myself had less problems and lasted far longer than any I bought assembled. Not that I am a great computer tech, but the components were of better quality.<br>

The first one I built in 97 still works but is way beyond upgrade.</p>

<p>Building you own machine is a great idea.</p>

<p>1) From all the reviews I have seen, Intel quad core processors, especially those with hyper-threading like the i7-4771, will generally out perform the AMD processors. Look here for reviews:<br>

http://www.tomshardware.com/</p>

<p>http://www.anandtech.com/</p>

<p>2) SSD will give you faster start time for your applications (and bragging rights), but I find magnetic media quite sufficient. I use the Western Digital "Black" series. The drives come with a 5-year warranty which means the manufacturer has confidence they will last at least 5 years and probably many more. </p>

<p>3) Unless you are editing video using Adobe Premier, a good video card that supports both Open GL and Open CL should suffice. Something with the power of the Radeon R7 260x should more than suffice. Here is a link to a good chart (yes the article is aimed at gamers, but the chart is valid for relative performance under all usage):</p>

<p>http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107-7.html</p>

<p>4) Unless you will have many, many large files opened at the same time, 16 gigabytes of memory will more than suffice. I have had very good luck with Corsair memory.</p>

<p>5) Although you did not mention it, be sure to get a good power supply. Get one with a single 12-volt rail. I like the Corsair HX series. For both my and my wife's computer, I chose the HX-650; today, I would purchase the HX-750.</p>

<p>6) Get a good case with good ventilation.</p>

<p>A good place to purchase components is:</p>

<p>http://www.newegg.com/<br>

or amazon (but only if the component is sold by Amazon itself).</p>

<p> </p>

<p>A couple weeks ago I placed an order with Dell. The neighborhood of $1200 will get you the specs listed below. <br /><br />I enjoy building computers too. I get to write specs, order, and put computers together where I work. For our office needs building our own lets us build to our needs and we end up with fast little machines, and we save a lot of money.<br /><br />Dell XPS 8700<br />4th Gen Intel Core i7-4770 processor (8M Cache, up to 3.9 GHz)<br />16GB Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz - 4 DIMMs<br />NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti 1.0GB GDDR5<br />2TB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive 6.0 Gb/s<br />Windows 8.1 64-bit English<br />16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW), write to CD/DVD<br />Integrated 7.1 with WAVE MAXXAudio 4<br />Dell Wireless-N 1703 @ 2.4GHz + Bluetooth 4.0</p>

Re OS: make sure that the chosen OS supports the hardware you need to use (cameras, scanners) and the programs the manufacturers of that hardware provide to "interface" with that hardware. Newest isnt always best. Newest sometimes even will not work. Some old Canon cameras, for instance, work (best) with the software provided at the time, with no good support from newer programs. Worst case, you will need to install XP in a Virtual machine running on Win 7 or 8, create a dual boot win 7 and 8 machine, or only install win 7 and not the latest MS OS.<br>Check before buying a replacement OS.

<p>Buy more memory than you think you need. I always have run out after a while when new programs with larger memory requirements such as LR5 came out. Just had that problem and replaced my Vista Dell (HD was failing as well) with a Windows 8.1 run Dell EPS 8700 with 24gb memory and 256gb SSD and 2TB HD. I've run LR5 with Photoshop Elements 12 on it at the same time editing 70mb film scans with no delays at all.</p>

<p>I decided against building my own to avoid startup and warranty issues. I bought the Dell with my American Express card. AX doubles the warranty from one to two years at no additional cost. Check your credit card coverages as some other credit card companies do the same. </p>

<p>The thing I like about home building (besides the customization) is that there are much larger, cooler case options that result in a more reliable system. Heat is the enemy, and pre-built systems are often in sleek, small cases that compromise temperature for size and quietness.</p>

<p>A quiet, larger case can keep things cool. I'm looking at an at least ten-year cycle on my last desktop (I7-920), which is six years old and very snappy. So it pays to get higher end stuff for the long term. <a href="http://www.pugetsystems.com/desktop.php">Some higher end builders</a> use better cases (and are less likely to be proprietary and easily upgradeable), although the best parts (or one level down) seem to carry a price premium, making building more reasonable. Remember, the best you can get now will last longer.</p>

<p>The pitfall of buying a computer is that, the basic configuration is incredibly low priced to catch your attention, but the upgrade features raise the price sky high.<br>

This is the computer I just bought, or semi-built. You can see in the list that adding 8GB DDR3 to the second DIMM costs $550. That's insane! <br>

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/servers/thinkserver/towers/ts140/<br>

<br />So, I decided to only order the E3 1245 processor, mainboard, and case from Lenovo. And I bought 2 1TB enterprise class HDD and 4 8GB ECC DDR3 from other sources.<br>

In this way, I got Lenovo warranty, top end enterprise class components that fits my need, within around $1100. I can't ask for more.<br>

--------------------------------<br>

If you have symmetrical multi displays, using a graphics card like nVidia NVS might be a good idea.</p>

<p>Since 1996 I'm building my systems and no regret at all. Usually, as Brad says, higher end stuff works very well for long term used and abused systems. You already got some good ideas. I want to add or reinforce some.<br>

1. Make sure the mainboard has Thunderbolt connector and enough SATA III and USB3 ports.<br>

2. Make sure to have a solid and powerful power source. If something goes wrong with a component usually it get hot and uses lot of power. If the power source does not have a generous reserve it can boils the whole system. As Brooks said HX-750 or even bigger if you plan to use your system until Windows 8.1 will be what's XP now.<br>

3. Use a very good CPU cooler... not the one that is packed as default. Do not save money here.<br>

4. Use a case that offers generous space and enough cooling. Google for reviews before to decide. There is a lot of good info on specialized websites. <br>

5. Do first a serious "stress test" on your system before to start using it.<br>

6. If funds are enough buy upfront as much RAM as you can. My last PC built a year ago has 32GB RAM. With the previous system I purchased initially 4GB and when I wanted to upgrade I was unable to find in the market the same memory chip so I had to replace it and to buy again the quantity required. Mixing memory chip is not a good idea.<br>

7. Ages ago I was a fan of AMD. I'll not recommend their CPU's now. Intel are more reliable... so buy the best Intel CPU for the funds you have. It does not have to be the latest and greatest but is a good idea to pick from the latest series developed. <br>

<br />Good luck!</p>

<p>I paid around $1700. Kit was a little cheaper than listed as I bought it on one of those sales holiday weekends.<br>

<br />Dell XPS 8700 <br />4th Gen Intel Core i7-4770 processor (8M Cache, up to 3.9 GHz)<br>

24GB Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz - 4 DIMMs Expandable to 32gb<br />AMD Radeon HD R9 270 2GB GDDR5 <br />2TB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive 6.0 Gb/s <br />+ 256GB SSD <br />XPS 8700, Black Chassis, large <br />Windows 8.1 64-bit English<br>

Keyboard and mouse (wired); 8 USB 2.0 and 3.0 jacks, speaker jack, mic. jack (no fax modem which I have to get)<br />Blu-ray Combo Drive (Reads BD and Writes to DVD/CD) <br />Integrated 7.1 with WAVE MAXXAudio 4 <br />Intel Dual Band Wireless-AC 7260 + Bluetooth 4.0 <br />1 Year Limited Warranty <br />Premium Phone Support, Initial Year <br />Dell Limited Hardware Warranty, Initial Year <br />Dell Limited Hardware Warranty Plus In-Home Service After Remote Diagnosis, Initial Year <br>

Also in that price were: Microsoft Office Home and Business 2013 and McAfee LiveSafe 12 Month Subscription.</p>

<p>There is hardly ever a good reason to build your own. You can not save any real money since you will pay more for the components than any system builder. The main reason would be to assemble a machine with a set of custom components that are not available any other way. This is almost never the case anymore. Although, unlikely, you may damage static sensitive components though lack of experience. If it doesn't boot the first time, whose at fault? Right. If you just want the pleasure of building your own and don't mind the extra expense and trouble-shooting then have fun.</p>

<p>I would not use raid 0 for a configuration. A bit more speed but much more danger. Unless you are processing thousand's of images, you really don't need it. There are other raid set-ups that allow for both speed and safety, but they cost more because they involve more drives. I would research raid carefully before setting one up. </p>

<blockquote>

<p>Any computer I built myself had less problems and lasted far longer than any I bought assembled. Not that I am a great computer tech, but the components were of better quality.<br />The first one I built in 97 still works but is way beyond upgrade.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Not that important! I have computer from 87 and is working perfectly. It's based on the 8086 (yes 8086 and not 8088). But what good is such a computer. So long lasting isn't of important. </p>

<p>The main reason I built my own PCs is because most OEMs cannot deliver the kind of configuration I like, plus usually their casings are just ugly. But Dell US frankly offers a lot more flexibility in configuration options (on this side of the pond, it's fairly limited what they offer), so if you're in the US, it may make a good choice. Having a single point of reference for warranty is easier.<br>

A few (personal) observations:</p>

<ul>

<li>More cores - only if the cores are more efficient. More gigahertz, only if the performance per clocktick is equal or better. Performance-wise, things aren't that black and white, unfortunately. Currently, Intel CPUs simply outperform AMD at the higher price bracket; for cheaper CPUs (Celeron/Pentium-class) I would take AMD instead. If the budget allows, hence, an Intel Core i3 or better. I favour the second-cheapest model usually, as it tends to deliver more performance per dollar. So: not the Core i7, but the i5 (4670K) instead. If the budget allows, for sure the i7, but if you need to make a saving, this is a $100 less that you hardly ever will notice in real-world performance.</li>

<li>The Socket 2011 enthusiast Core i7 CPUs are very overpriced and offer too little improvement over the regular Socket 1155 ones. Ony if your budget is extremely generous, start looking at those models.</li>

<li>SSD for OS and applications, and 2 HDDs for the rest. Stay away from RAID0 (RAID 1 for the two normal hard disks is an option). If budget is generous, a second HDD as "temporary files" and the Lightroom catalog would speed up things even further, and yes, this could be done with a smaller SSD (60-80 GB should suffice, I think, but no idea how much space the previews would take).</li>

<li>Open<strong>G</strong>L doesn't matter at all - some programs (Photoshop, CaptureOne, most video-editing programs) can use Open<strong>C</strong>L to accelerate things a bit. NVIDIA and AMD cards both work fine for that. If you do not care to squeeze out this last bit of performance, I find the integrated Intel HD Graphics to do the necessary, and prefer to live without an extra fan in my system.</li>

<li>More is better is true only up to a certain level. The normal Core i5 and i7 CPUs do not support more than 32GB. I've got 32GB and most of it sits unused even with quite some applications open simultaneously. Windows 7 and 8 are not that memory hungry at all; 16GB will do.</li>

<li>Get memory from a known brand (Kingston, Corsair, Micron,...) to reduce the risk of compatibility issues.</li>

<li>Get a mainboard from a known vendor, and look up the model that suits you on forums for known problems, possible gotcha's and such. My usual shortlist is Asus, Gigabyte, MSI; Asrock has gotten a lot better too, and they can be very attractive.</li>

<li>Do not underestimate the need for a good, solid powersupply. It's a non-glamorous part that never scores high on the spec-list. But it is the cornerstone. Get a quality one, such as Enermax, SeaSonic, Corsair ones. Plus, noise levels can differ wildly.</li>

<li>For noise levels, up to a few years ago, the supplied CPU coolers were generally noise and not highly effective. With the last 2-3 generations of Intel CPUs, however, the supplied cooler is fine and not all that noisy. Unless you care about the looks, it'll be fine and no need to spend extra money on a fancy fan.</li>

<li>For the casing, look for some reviews to understand the subtle differences there can be. Some cases are not much fun to work with; for example, I have a small (nice-looking, silent, mATX) Silverstone casing which is cramped and clumsy to work with. Large ATX casing tend to be easy, but cheaper cases use more sheetmetal (easy to cut yourself) and thinner materials (noisy). When I bought my casing, it was the component that took me the longest to select and I ended spending twice what I wanted. But it looks good, it is solid and quite silent and it will last me 2-3 builds (8-12 years) probably.</li>

</ul>

<p>Assembling the desktop itself is easy, especially if you have a somewhat decent level of knowledge on the subject. The risk of components not being compatible with one another has gone down a lot in the last decade, so usually it really is plug-and-play. But when problems surface, you will be much more on your own than you would be with a pre-assembled system. So, get good quality components. It won't be cheaper than a pre-assembled system, though.</p>

<p>Late edits because I really should reread 10 times what I typed::<br>

<em>I favour the second-cheapest model usually ... </em>Should read: second-most-expensive model instead.<br>

<em>If budget is generous, a second HDD as "temporary files" and the Lightroom catalog</em> .. Should be a second SSD.</p>

<p>As for OpenCL, at present AMD cards are better at this at equal pricepoints compared to NVIDIA. Only the Geforce GTX750 offers good GP-GPU performance in comparison with AMD cards. Also worth underlining: Lightroom does not take any advantage of the graphics card.</p>

<p>Wouter: Does video editing programs use the graphics card? When is it used?</p>

<p>If you want to use Windows, then the reason to build your own would be the particular combination of components you want. If you stick to the mainstream setups, you will get cheaper hardware. If you want to extend the configs, you'll pay more, so makes sense to build your own.</p>

<p>Although I have used DOS/Windows as long as they have been around, and continue to do so daily at work, I personally appreciate Unix/Linux and OS-X much more. So, as of this weekend, I have no Windows machine at home. My two-year old server in the closet (RAID?Samba server, Active Directory server, Plex/XBMC/media center for living room TV) runs Ubuntu Server. My older PCs run Xubuntu. And my latest desktop machine, where I do photo editing, runs OS-X Mavericks. Only nod to Windows is that OS-X does not have a decent version of Quicken, so I installed Oracle VirtualBox and running Windows 8.1 in the VM just so I can run Quicken.</p>

<p>Now, I always found Apple HW to be a bit spendy, so I built my own Hackintosh, er, CustoMac recently, my first ever (I have been assembling x86 computers since the mid eighties). It was a pleasure, and I could not be happier. I followed buyers and builders guide here: http://www.tonymacx86.com/home.php, and built a <a href="http://www.tonymacx86.com/416-building-customac-buyer-s-guide-march-2014.html">CustoMac Pro</a>, similar to the one <a href="http://www.tonymacx86.com/golden-builds/106807-updated-wildwillows-haswell-build-ga-z87x-oc-i7-4770k-hd4600-gt-640-a.html">in this thread</a>. I have two 2GB Hybrid drives (conventional hard disk with a SSD cache built-in), and an SSD for photo editor caches. I do not use RAID for my OS/application disk, just have a Carbon Copy backup on external drive so I can restore. All my data is stored in a central RAID server. You might consider not putting OS and applications on SSD, though it would be a bit faster, it does not make real practical difference, and the cost/capacity is still not as good as conventional or hybrid drives.</p>

<p>Building computers is great fun and you get exactly what you want with usually better components, even if it may be a little more expensive. Plus, if something fails or needs upgrading, you can just pull the part and plop in a new one. Very cool and highly recommended.</p>

<p>And don't forget about the fun of overclocking. My 2.4 GHz processor is stable and cool at 3.2 GHz right now and I still have some overhead to push it faster. Actually, I'll probably just build a new machine instead. This rig is almost 7 years old. The only trouble I've ever had with it was about a month ago when it just failed to boot up one morning. It turns out the little battery on the mother board that maintains BIOS settings had simply worn out after 7 years. A quick trip to the grocery store for a new watch battery and it fired right up.</p>

<p>Have fun!</p>

<p>Just read Wouter's advice and I agree. Good stuff.</p>

<p>Just thought of something else: When you build your own machine and install your own operating system, you don't get all the crapware that the manufacturers install on the hard drive. That's worth the price of admission right there!</p>

<p>Alan, I do not know for all video programs out there (as I am not doing any video-editing myself), but from what I gather, Premiere (recent versions) and After Effects can very effectively use the graphics card to speed up animations and effects, and most of all rendering and transcoding video. Sony Vegas should also use available graphics power for some effects, rendering and encoding.<br>

There are some articles about it on the web, for example: http://us.hardware.info/reviews/4613/7/review-gpgpu-performance-of-modern-graphics-cards-video-editing (also a page on video encoding), Sony Vegas info: http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/gpuacceleration or Premiere CC information: http://blogs.adobe.com/premierepro/2013/06/adobe-premiere-pro-cc-and-gpu-support.html.</p>

<p>Thanks for all the response folks - this gives me stuff to think about as i go forward. My build isn't going to have to be as robust or as much a long term investment for some of you who are professionals and make a living at photography so my needs are probably on the lighter end of things. I have been looking at the i7-4770k but the i5-4670k is piquing my interest given the performance/value indicators. The more i read I also don't think i really need to go beyond 16gb memory as i am rarely dealing with very large images or lots of layers and masks and such. And for a variety of reasons I am looking at a small ITX case type build which i know is challenging from a heat management standpoint and i think water cooling is probably almost mandatory in that situation - the intel CPUs also seem to be generally cooler and are more energy efficient so that is a plus for an intel build. I may look more at the mATX form factor just to help with that as well as offer expansion capability down the road. I have pretty much identified the Geoforce 750 Ti GPU as it hits a price and performance point that I am comfortable with - i don't need a $600+ grahics card! I also know that a RAID configuration is unlikely to be of great value to me given the costs of that, I just don't need that level of security. At the end of the day I know it will cost more than buying a pre-configured system, but I like the idea of doing it myself just from the standpoint of satisfaction and that the components possibly are better than otherwise. Again, thanks!</p>

<p>Christopher, just curious as to why you are considering an additional GPU/graphics card. Both i7-4770k/i5-4670k have the built-in HD-4600 GPU, and for pixel editing, and even for amateur video editing it is more than adequate. If you are worried about space, power and heat, that is one less thing to worry about. I run XBMC with HD audio/video on a Sandy Bridge i5 (forget the exact part), and I have zero issues with performance.</p>

<p>Wouter: I use Premiere Elements 12 so I guess it uses the video card too. Not that I can do anything about it. The video card came with the Dell. I figure when I buy these systems, that even if it's not being used now, at some point in the future some program will. That includes memory especially. Thanks for the input.</p>

<p>As far as doing your own build, I'm not opposed, <em>per se. </em>Years ago, for those old enough to remember, the Fisher Company made their Strato-Kits for stereo sound systems. They provided all the parts, wire, components, solder, etc. and you built it. I built a pre-amp/amplifier. <em>And the amp was powered with vacuum tubes!</em> :) Worked from day 1. Worked for years. Even transported it to Japan and back where I was stationed in the service. But today, I just want simplicity, something reliable that I can let others worry about if there are problems.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>the question of upgrading my OS from Xp to a newer OS faces many of us.<br>

You know from my earler posts that I have poor visioin.<br>

I have adapted to xp and found apps that work and allow me to see what I am doing.<br>

ztree file manager and NTI cd burning software.<br>

I neesd to use ztree and a modicied mode wqith win 7 ans ot will not work in full screen 80 x 25 ( dos like) mode under win 7.<br>

BTI will not work at all in win 7 and the new bersion is ughly blocks like a hand held computer and will cost a lot of money besides.<br>

XP despite many windowy and secret PIUTYA secret upgrades that cause me a lot of troubl;e. seems to wotrk better.<br>

I set up a win 7 system when I forst got this HP dc7600 system several years ago.<br>

I have a drive with win 7 and is iis almost never used.<br>

after a moths constant complaining 3 years ago, I installed win xp and I have been happier.</p>

<p>My idea is to figure out a way to continue using xp at least for the immediate future.<br>

two to three years ago I decided that I doid not like win 7.</p>

<p>I only upgraded from win 98 se when memory video and hard drive sizes became incompatible.,<br>

I dropped windows 2000 when I could no longer find support for network ort sound cards.<br>

I suppose thaqt eventually even proper drivers for<br>

win 7 and newer hardware will become unavailable.</p>

<p>I note that the VA is still runninfg<br>

XP. I wonder what they will do.<br>

again sorry about vision caused typos</p>