digitaldog Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, AlanKlein said: So was I staying on topic. I was showing that the entire computer industry and related fields including cameras work to obsolete software and hardware to force the public to buy new equipment and upgrade software so they can increase their profits. You didn't show it, it's not true either. You are entitled to believe the broad generation you made again, but that's on you. Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, digitaldog said: I have! I corrected you about the issues using older (within reason) Adobe products to access much newer cameras at no cost by using the DNG converter. By your own doing, you can't. I provided the fact that at some point, no one can go back to such old OSs that any software can support a newer piece of hardware (and vise versa). I then provided an inexpensive means to use prehistoric software on prehistoric hardware still while using new hardware with new software. If you can't subscribe to any solution, you're stuck with your own created issue (new camera, really old software). "I'm not about talking and finger-pointing and complaining. I'm about getting things done." - Christine Quinn Did you read the entire thread or did you jump the gun and just go to the bottom post ? (sometimes I make the same mistake...). If you read the ENTIRE post you will see that I tried downloading the DNG converter I cant count how many times and it still didn't work ? I even tried to download the 2007 DNG converter version but it switched to the 2023 while it was downloading ? No matter how far I went back the same thing would happen. It could be that my computer had not been updated for a while since I purchased it from one of those Business Computer liquidators. Unfortunatelly right now it's too late to get any updates from Microsoft on this computer. Edited July 18, 2023 by hjoseph7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) I read the entire thread, including your misinformation about Adobe's support for newer cameras in the older software they provide. In fact, I'm the first person in this thread to reply to the OP on the actual topic! Before it went off topic with a statement that had to be corrected and was. And: Edited July 18, 2023 by digitaldog Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 That's not Adobe's fault ? GIVE ME A BREAK. I use to worked as a computer-programmer for 35 years now I'm retired. I use to work with Mainframe Computers. Those are the computers that used to take up an entire room. They use to be sold by IBM and a few other companies. Maintanence alone for those computers was about $1 million per year. In the 35 years that I worked with those computers there was never such thing as canceling an entire operating system for a newer one. Everything was backward compatible up to the 1960's. You never got emails about updating your software and running updates at night. If there were any updates(which there were) they were done behind the scenes by someone called a 'System Programmer' and that was it. Users never had to worry about stuff like that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, hjoseph7 said: That's not Adobe's fault ? GIVE ME A BREAK. I use to worked as a computer-programmer for 35 years now I'm retired. No it isn't their fault. Mostly it is the camera manufacturers who produce proprietary raws with each new camera (explained, falling on someone's deaf ears). Then it is your fault for buying a new camera and refusing to use software to support the raw. Shoot JPEG then. Openly documented file format your old software will support. No one forced you to get a newer camera and then stubbornly work with prehistoric software that was never created to support that raw data. All your own doing. One would hope someone that admits they are in the software business would understand this, but alas, it boils down to this and your complaint about Adobe's DNG software:“The only thing complaining does is convince others that you are not in control.” Anonymous Edited July 18, 2023 by digitaldog Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 1 hour ago, digitaldog said: No it isn't their fault. Mostly it is the camera manufacturers who produce proprietary raws with each new camera (explained, falling on someone's deaf ears). Then it is your fault for buying a new camera and refusing to use software to support the raw. Shoot JPEG then. Openly documented file format your old software will support. No one forced you to get a newer camera and then stubbornly work with prehistoric software that was never created to support that raw data. All your own doing. One would hope someone that admits they are in the software business would understand this, but alas, it boils down to this and your complaint about Adobe's DNG software:“The only thing complaining does is convince others that you are not in control.” Anonymous MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD, THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said: MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD, THANK YOU Ridiculous and unnecessary. You are entitled to have an opinion. I am just letting you know that it is silly. Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 27 minutes ago, digitaldog said: Ridiculous and unnecessary. You are entitled to have an opinion. I am just letting you know that it is silly. Come to think about you are the weird and moldy character that kept me away from this Forum for 3 years ! I should have known. See you in the next 3 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 1 minute ago, hjoseph7 said: Come to think about you are the weird and moldy character that kept me away from this Forum for 3 years ! I should have known. See you in the next 3 years... Adios amigo. 😋 Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 1 minute ago, digitaldog said: Adios amigo. 😋 Adios you repulsive fanatic ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 18, 2023 Share Posted July 18, 2023 6 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said: Adios you repulsive fanatic ! Still here, sigh...🤫 Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddler4 Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 We could do without the gratuitous insults. Hjoseph: both Dog and I provided an answer to your problem, which is that you are basically stuck: you bear the costs of upgrading your OS and software or accept the cost of things that won't work with the old OS and software. We gave you specific information about this, e.g., dates when things were replaced. No one can get you out of this dilemma, as far as I know. So pick your poison. That explanation is all the help I know how to give. Please don't blame me or Dog. It's not our doing. Off topic, but re the golden days of mainframes: this is off topic, but as someone who was on the other side of the desk--a user--I have to say that those days were awful by comparison. I can do orders of magnitude more with my tiny, inexpensive laptop than I could do with that enormous, expensive, hard to maintain mainframe, and I have an easy-to use and very powerful OS (two, actually) rather than the limited, obscure, and hard to master JCL. I get results almost instantly rather than overnight and can easily input the output from one software package into another. For example, in minutes, I can do a complex statistical analysis, move the output into other software, and generate sophisticated graphics. I can then drop those graphics into a document and resize in seconds. I can take piles of output files and search them for relevant content, etc., etc.. You may pine for the old days when none of that was possible, but I certainly don't. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 I rebooted my computer today and I was able to convert recent(2023) RAW CR2 files using the DNG Converter ! I was able to open the files using Light Room 3 (2010) with no problems. I then tried opening the DNG files using Photoshop Elements 6.1 (2009) . It opened the files, but it took about 3-5 minutes to open each file. PSE also has a version of Camera Raw. I tried opening the files in CS5 but it crashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 (edited) 9 hours ago, paddler4 said: We could do without the gratuitous insults. Hjoseph: both Dog and I provided an answer to your problem, which is that you are basically stuck: you bear the costs of upgrading your OS and software or accept the cost of things that won't work with the old OS and software. We gave you specific information about this, e.g., dates when things were replaced. No one can get you out of this dilemma, as far as I know. So pick your poison. That explanation is all the help I know how to give. Please don't blame me or Dog. It's not our doing. Off topic, but re the golden days of mainframes: this is off topic, but as someone who was on the other side of the desk--a user--I have to say that those days were awful by comparison. I can do orders of magnitude more with my tiny, inexpensive laptop than I could do with that enormous, expensive, hard to maintain mainframe, and I have an easy-to use and very powerful OS (two, actually) rather than the limited, obscure, and hard to master JCL. I get results almost instantly rather than overnight and can easily input the output from one software package into another. For example, in minutes, I can do a complex statistical analysis, move the output into other software, and generate sophisticated graphics. I can then drop those graphics into a document and resize in seconds. I can take piles of output files and search them for relevant content, etc., etc.. You may pine for the old days when none of that was possible, but I certainly don't. Actually I brought it up because when you start asking questions, some people seem to think that you are computer Illiterate. Actually trying to explain some of this stuff to someone like my 'Mother' would be like talking to a brick wall. Microsoft expects you to sit around reading their complicated Help Pages as if you had nothing better to do. Sure a PC or Personal Computers are much, much valuable than using a "Dumb Terminal" to access stuff on a Mainframe. Like you said you can do all type of stuff, such as surf the web, flow charts, graphics, word processing etc. However Personal Computers would never have been developed if Bill gates who worked for IBM back in the 80's had not copied their operating system and somehow incorporated it into a PC. That operating system was called MVS (Multiple Virtual Storage) developed by many IBM engineers throughout the years and it was the first time that a computer could perform various tasks at the same time(Multitasking). Without that, a computer would have to process everything in batch step by step (which is still done today) rather than in a Multitasking System. Bill Gates in a way was like Kodak in that he brought computng skills to the masses. With that said, how many of us sit at home writing computer programs on our PC's ? I had to, because that was my job, but I can tell you one thing, Programming is different than coding a couple of web pages or running a couple of Apps. You still have to be connected to a Mainframe or Servers that contain massives amount of data. This is why I would never expect someone who wasn't trained in that field of study to understand or to even make sense of any of that stuff... Edited July 20, 2023 by hjoseph7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rconey Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 My sympathies. I just replaced a printer. I am due to replace my desktop computer, but so far so good. The $11 a month Adobe subscription has been fine, and not that expensive (although it updates and "moves my cheese" more often than I like). I am sure that digital is far better than my old, pre-2004 Velvia medium format slide film habit but it does cost........ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 On 7/5/2023 at 7:20 AM, hjoseph7 said: It it worthwhile upgrading why not use an older version of Photoshop ? The main reason is that while new cameras are steadily comming out, Photoshop has to keep up with those changes. The older versions of Photoshop cannot handle the newer files so then you are stuck. The facts, corrections, and the final outcome that were explained: On 7/5/2023 at 8:48 AM, digitaldog said: One certainly can if they convert using the free DNG converter. Adobe never forces anyone with a new camera to upgrade Photoshop (actually Adobe Camera Raw). That's all the fault of the camera manufacturers that refuse to produce an openly documented raw. Yes, you still miss out on new features, but you can render your new raws with older Adobe raw converter(s). 21 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said: I rebooted my computer today and I was able to convert recent(2023) RAW CR2 files using the DNG Converter ! I was able to open the files using Light Room 3 (2010) with no problems. I then tried opening the DNG files using Photoshop Elements 6.1 (2009) . It opened the files, but it took about 3-5 minutes to open each file. PSE also has a version of Camera Raw. I tried opening the files in CS5 but it crashed. And the actual topic (the question): On 7/3/2023 at 8:06 PM, Rick Helmke said: The question is, what does Lightroom offer that Photoshop doesn’t? Does it even matter? I’m wanting something that just works without overthinking the work. Of course it takes practice and there’s an inevitable learning curve but I did a lot of that already. I want to be able to post process the way I’ve been shooting for years, it needs to be second nature. Suggestions? Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 Why don't you ask me why are you still using PSE 6.1 ? Why, because every susequent version of PSE which I purchased (vs 9, 10, 11 and 12) I didn't like. Nothing wrong with that just a personal choice. It's like these guys tha would rather drive their 1999 Buick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 Everything seems to be working now even in PS CS5 ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 20, 2023 Share Posted July 20, 2023 😜 "Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't. "- Erica Jong Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Helmke Posted July 21, 2023 Author Share Posted July 21, 2023 Moderator as the OP on this thread I had a simple question which seems to have morphed into a giant pissing contest. As such it appears to be a waste of space so if possible, please close it. Thanks. Rick H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Not only did you get your questions answered (which you could have Googled), you got a full education on things you didn't know about, or want to know about, as well as insight into hiuman foibles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 1 minute ago, hjoseph7 said: Not only did you get your questions answered (which you could have Googled), you got a full education on things you didn't know about, or want to know about, as well as insight into hiuman foibles. The same applies to you actually. Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjoseph7 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 "The same applies to you actually. Well if you the "expert " had told me to just reboot my computer, we could have avoided all the vitriol. Actully I'm not sure if the reboot did it, or if it was me downoading a copy of Avast Network Firewall which updtaed all of my out-of-date-drivers ? Not sure, still trying to figure that one out ? In any case, thanks for sticking to your analysis, it made me think. BTW, ACDsee which is another Photo editing software I use, does not have any of these problems. So far it has read and detected whatever RAW file I have thrown at it no matert how far back it was created . The only problem is that once you edit the RAW file it turns into a JPEG, or TIFF with no going back ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans_waterlander Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 27 minutes ago, digitaldog said: The same applies to you actually. Give it a rest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaldog Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 On 7/18/2023 at 5:35 PM, hjoseph7 said: Come to think about you are the weird and moldy character that kept me away from this Forum for 3 years ! I should have known. See you in the next 3 years... 40 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said: "The same applies to you actually. Well if you the "expert " had told me to just reboot my computer, we could have avoided all the vitriol. Actully I'm not sure if the reboot did it, or if it was me downoading a copy of Avast Network Firewall which updtaed all of my out-of-date-drivers ? Not sure, still trying to figure that one out ? In any case, thanks for sticking to your analysis, it made me think. Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" (pluralsight.com) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts