Photoshop/Lightroom

[digitaldog]

5 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said:

Could be because  I'm still using Windows 7,  but the application stopped me short form using CR2 files from my Canon 6D  with PS CS5. 

Yes! Just like (FWIW), I can't run Photoshop 5 on OSX or Photoshop CC 2023 on OS9. 

"Nope, the DNG converter that i tried would not go back to files created in 2014 and below. "

That's not Adobe's fault, and yes, camera raw files created in 2014, all those listed in the URL I provided can be used after conversion to DNG.

Edited July 8, 2023 by digitaldog

[paddler4]

15 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said:

"If I'm not mistaken, that combination has been the only way to buy either LR Classic or Photoshop for a number of years."

Nope, I purchased photoshop CS5 in 2010, then I purchased Lightroom 3 in 2012..

 

What I meant is that the pair of LR and Photoshop has been the only way to buy current versions of the software for some years. Both CS5 and Lightroom 3 were replaced in 2012. The subscription version of Lightroom was released in 2017.

So for anyone wanting current software, the only option for quite some time has been to buy the Creative Cloud photographer's package, which includes both LR Classic and Photoshop.

As your later post and Dog's answer show, using old software can sometimes cause problems, in addition to missing newer features.

 

[hjoseph7]

I just downloade the DNG converter to my computer. I got farther than I did before in that it actually lets me download the software without any  errors. Unfortunately I still can't use it because every folder i open it treats as if it is empty eve thought it's not ...

  

[digitaldog]

And you ARE running with the minimum system requirements???

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/using/adobe-dng-converter.html

 

1. Select the folder of images you'd like to convert to DNG.

Edited July 8, 2023 by digitaldog

[hjoseph7]

I does not work on my Windows 7 computer, I'm getting this message: It works fine on my windows 10 computer !

 

[digitaldog]

We've been over this. Your OS is too old.

[paddler4]

4 hours ago, hjoseph7 said:

I does not work on my Windows 7 computer, I'm getting this message: It works fine on my windows 10 computer !

 

The current DNG converter requires Windows 10 or 11. See https://helpx.adobe.com/in/camera-raw/using/adobe-dng-converter.html

This is an example of the point I posted earlier. When you use very old software, you don't just lose access to new features. Some other things just won't work because the developers don't want to spend time making new software compatible with an OS or other software that is out of date and no longer available.

 

[hjoseph7]

1 hour ago, paddler4 said:

The current DNG converter requires Windows 10 or 11. See https://helpx.adobe.com/in/camera-raw/using/adobe-dng-converter.html

This is an example of the point I posted earlier. When you use very old software, you don't just lose access to new features. Some other things just won't work because the developers don't want to spend time making new software compatible with an OS or other software that is out of date and no longer available.

 

Believe me I tried downloading Windows 7 Converters more than a few times, but they all magically changed to the Windows 10 version....

[paddler4]

19 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said:

Believe me I tried downloading Windows 7 Converters more than a few times, but they all magically changed to the Windows 10 version....

Which just suggests that Adobe has pulled off it's servers the old versions it no longer supports--unless someone kept one and is putting it on their own server. The only solution is to use a newer operating system.

[digitaldog]

20 minutes ago, hjoseph7 said:

Believe me I tried downloading Windows 7 Converters more than a few times, but they all magically changed to the Windows 10 version....

This is really simple, and I'm unsure why you're struggling. 

There may be many years of cameras that need DNG support. The URL provided shows all the cameras and the versions required. The DNG converter like Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom Classic is updated regularly with new camera support. As all three are released, they have minimum system requirements that change over time. You've yet to tell us what camera you're trying to convert. You did state (incorrectly):

"Photoshop has to keep up with those changes. The older versions of Photoshop cannot handle the newer files so then you are stuck". 

Old versions of Photoshop CAN support newer versions of a camera's raw document IF they are converted to DNG, and to do so, you need a version of the DNG converter that has that ability, AND it has to run on whatever OS is required for that version. It is that simple. 

If you insist on using ancient software with newer cameras that were never built when that old software was made, you have only yourself to blame. Adobe has a back door to do so, but you have to use a converter supported by your old software (OS). 

Considering what a new camera might cost, and considering you might actually want to shoot raw and process that data, you might consider actually updating your old software to do so. But one thing isn't true: Adobe isn't forcing you to do so and Adobe has a 'back door' if you at least attempt to use their free converter to do so. 

[digitaldog]

8 minutes ago, paddler4 said:

Which just suggests that Adobe has pulled off it's servers the old versions it no longer supports--unless someone kept one and is putting it on their own server. The only solution is to use a newer operating system.

Really old Adobe software can be found here:

ftp://ftp.adobe.com//pub/adobe
Log in as a guest and go to the folder of the software you're trying to find. 

But we can't help hjoseph7 if he insists on using an old version of the DNG converter that can run on the really old OS that wasn't ever intended to convert a newer camera (as such undefined by him) when it was released. 

[paddler4]

4 hours ago, digitaldog said:

But we can't help hjoseph7 if he insists on using an old version of the DNG converter that can run on the really old OS that wasn't ever intended to convert a newer camera (as such undefined by him) when it was released. 

I shouldn't have missed that point. If he finds an old converter that antedates the raw format he wants to convert, it won't solve his problem.

[digitaldog]

15 minutes ago, paddler4 said:

If he finds an old converter that antedates the raw format he wants to convert, it won't solve his problem.

It's entirely a self-inflicted problem.  😉

[mikemorrellNL]

I've browsed through this thread and TBH, anyone still using Windows 7 (THE support or which ended in 2020) or Windows 8 (THE support for which ended in January 2023) really should (IMHO) upgrade their Windows to at least Windows 10 (and preferably Windows 11).  For most users of 'old and no longer supported Windows versions' this will almost certainly involve upgrading or replacing the PC/Laptop 'hardware'. The 'business value' of PC's and Laptops is written off after about 3 years. Maybe, you want to extend the life of your PC/Laptop to 5 years or even longer.

Whatever photo-organizing and -editing program(s) you choose mu only tip is that you something that is kept up-to-date.

[hjoseph7]

4 hours ago, mikemorrellNL said:

I've browsed through this thread and TBH, anyone still using Windows 7 (THE support or which ended in 2020) or Windows 8 (THE support for which ended in January 2023) really should (IMHO) upgrade their Windows to at least Windows 10 (and preferably Windows 11).  For most users of 'old and no longer supported Windows versions' this will almost certainly involve upgrading or replacing the PC/Laptop 'hardware'. The 'business value' of PC's and Laptops is written off after about 3 years. Maybe, you want to extend the life of your PC/Laptop to 5 years or even longer.

Whatever photo-organizing and -editing program(s) you choose mu only tip is that you something that is kept up-to-date.

Sounds simpler said than done. First of all I have tons of sofware that run on windows 7. Also CD's and DVD's that only run on Windows 7.  Upgrading these would be 'iffy' at best. I also have things such as printers($600/200), Monitors($800), Scanner($850), that work fine on Windows 7, so upgrading would be another big "'IF". I prefer using Windows 7 because it's less bloated and gets out of my way when I'm working. Windows 10/11 is like going to the Super Market only to find out they changed all the products on the isle .

I appreciate the new jazzy features and all on some of these products,  but since when is a computer a mandatory Utility ? My 2 desktops computers both use Windows 7 and have been running fine since 2010 with few issues. I have 2 laptops that run on Windows 10. One that needs and overhall badly because it is so slow I'm afraid to turn it on, for fear I might have a heart-attack. The other one which I just recently purchased works fine. The only software on it is Photoshop and Lightrooom 2023  and I would like to keep it that way.  

Edited July 17, 2023 by hjoseph7

[digitaldog]

It is simple.

I have software that originally cost thousands of dollars that only runs on hardware and software decades old. I do and can run them on old hardware (dirt cheap too) off eBay. A few times a year I might go there.

I also have a very modern camera that cost even more being handled by modern hardware and software. This isn't a mutually exclusive choice! 

You own a modern camera and want to process the raw, you can. Even on an older OS by converting to DNG, up to a point. If you can't, it's by your own doing. 

[AlanKlein]

5 hours ago, hjoseph7 said:

Sounds simpler said than done. First of all I have tons of sofware that run on windows 7. Also CD's and DVD's that only run on Windows 7.  Upgrading these would be 'iffy' at best. I also have things such as printers($600/200), Monitors($800), Scanner($850), that work fine on Windows 7, so upgrading would be another big "'IF". I prefer using Windows 7 because it's less bloated and gets out of my way when I'm working. Windows 10/11 is like going to the Super Market only to find out they changed all the products on the isle .

I appreciate the new jazzy features and all on some of these products,  but since when is a computer a mandatory Utility ? My 2 desktops computers both use Windows 7 and have been running fine since 2010 with few issues. I have 2 laptops that run on Windows 10. One that needs and overhall badly because it is so slow I'm afraid to turn it on, for fear I might have a heart-attack. The other one which I just recently purchased works fine. The only software on it is Photoshop and Lightrooom 2023  and I would like to keep it that way.  

Manufacturers love when software is updated by other manufacturers. It forces their customers to update their equipment and software as well and they can plead not guilty while receiving the benefits of the change..  Chase Bank upgraded their software app so it doesn't work on my 5-year-old Samsung cell phone which cannot upgrade to the new Samsung operating system to handle the new Chase app.  I have to use my newer Samsung netbook to use the check deposit app.   So I:m being forced to upgrade the old Samsung cell phone even though it otherwise works fine.  It's an incestuous relationship that's been going on since Microsoft and others started to play these games when microprocessors were invented.

[digitaldog]

1 hour ago, AlanKlein said:

Manufacturers love when software is updated by other manufacturers. It forces their customers to update their equipment and software as well and they can plead not guilty while receiving the benefits of the change..  

"All generalizations are false, including this one." -Mark Twain

In this case the fault is totally with the camera manufacturers and this has been going on for decades. This affects all software companies that you would want to process your raw data! It is completely unnecessary.

Every time a new camera is produced, the camera manufacturers produce a new, differing proprietary raw file. It may only be different by a small degree but the current raw processor cannot process it. So the raw has to be reverse engineered to start.

Now with Adobe, the process is a bit more complex. Adobe needs both the raw and a camera because they must also shoot targets to build both lens and camera profiles, sometimes camera matching profiles. That takes time. They then must build a new version to test internally. After that, testing outside the company takes place, sometimes staggered (alpha then beta testing). In order to even do so, they have to build installers, instructions, upload for testers, and so forth. This takes time too. Now it is common for the outside testing to take a few months, especially if (and when we have some very good testers), find bugs. The bugs must be fixed, the newer installers have to be built, the testers have to test again. Rinse and repeat. This takes time.

Some have every right to be upset that they can't fully use their new camera and again, the blame falls on the camera manufacturer. You can see that the JPEG, an openly documented file format that has been openly documented for decades is no issue. Yet your proprietary raws are. It is your data and you are being forced to wait because of the camera manufacturer. All this costs you and Adobe and all other software companies time and money. But by and large, photographers don't blame the right parties, they would rather assume, dismiss the open raw format Adobe proposed and blame anyone but the right party; the camera manufacturers. 

Those that assume can't tell us why this is a good idea for anyone (let alone the camera manufacturers) but this endless loop happens year after year. To the same result: money and time wasted, the newer proprietary raws always getting supported. Why? When will it stop?

 

[paddler4]

16 hours ago, hjoseph7 said:

First of all I have tons of sofware that run on windows 7. Also CD's and DVD's that only run on Windows 7.  Upgrading these would be 'iffy' at best. I also have things such as printers($600/200), Monitors($800), Scanner($850), that work fine on Windows 7, so upgrading would be another big "'IF".

I went directly from Windows 7 to Windows 10. I don't recall many compatibility problems. You would have to check each of the software packages and peripherals to know. The only incompatibility I remember--I may be forgetting a few--is that I had to replace my x-Rite calibration tool. I didn't replace any other peripherals, and I don't recall problems with software. What you are experiencing is the mirror image of the same problem, but much more severe: things that won't work because you are using an old operating system. As long as software and hardware keep changing rapidly, I doubt there will be a way to avoid this fully.

[AlanKlein]

11 hours ago, digitaldog said:

"All generalizations are false, including this one." -Mark Twain

In this case the fault is totally with the camera manufacturers and this has been going on for decades. This affects all software companies that you would want to process your raw data! It is completely unnecessary.

Every time a new camera is produced, the camera manufacturers produce a new, differing proprietary raw file. It may only be different by a small degree but the current raw processor cannot process it. So the raw has to be reverse engineered to start.

Now with Adobe, the process is a bit more complex. Adobe needs both the raw and a camera because they must also shoot targets to build both lens and camera profiles, sometimes camera matching profiles. That takes time. They then must build a new version to test internally. After that, testing outside the company takes place, sometimes staggered (alpha then beta testing). In order to even do so, they have to build installers, instructions, upload for testers, and so forth. This takes time too. Now it is common for the outside testing to take a few months, especially if (and when we have some very good testers), find bugs. The bugs must be fixed, the newer installers have to be built, the testers have to test again. Rinse and repeat. This takes time.

Some have every right to be upset that they can't fully use their new camera and again, the blame falls on the camera manufacturer. You can see that the JPEG, an openly documented file format that has been openly documented for decades is no issue. Yet your proprietary raws are. It is your data and you are being forced to wait because of the camera manufacturer. All this costs you and Adobe and all other software companies time and money. But by and large, photographers don't blame the right parties, they would rather assume, dismiss the open raw format Adobe proposed and blame anyone but the right party; the camera manufacturers. 

Those that assume can't tell us why this is a good idea for anyone (let alone the camera manufacturers) but this endless loop happens year after year. To the same result: money and time wasted, the newer proprietary raws always getting supported. Why? When will it stop?

 

I wasn't just referring to camera manufacturers, necessarily.  I was referring to the computer industry in general. 

The problem I had was Chase bank's new app couldn't be installed in my 5-year-old Samsung Galaxy S7 cellphone.  It requires the latest Samung Android update and my phone can't install it.  So I could not access my banking account and do deposits from my cellphone.  Fortunately, I have a later model Samsung Tablet.  I can load the latest Chase app and do my banking from there at home.  But it's inconvenient as I don't have my Tablet with me most of the time but always have my cellphone.  So I have to bank from home, or spend hundreds to replace a perfectly good cellphone.   I'm sure many of us have similar problems.  In this case a bank changes it;s program and Samsung benefits because it forces people to upgrade their cellphones so Samsung can sell more equipment.  Photographers with new camera need software upgrades as you described.  Nikon scanners won't work with new operating systems.  The problem in the computer industry is immense and fabulously expensive for consumers.  I'm just complaining.  Surely, I don't lknow the answer to this, if there is one.  In the car business you can always get spare parts to make your ancient car run. Although even there, software built-in to autos by the manufacturers try to block independent service repair shops.  It raises the costs for everyone.

Edited July 18, 2023 by AlanKlein

[digitaldog]

3 minutes ago, AlanKlein said:

I wasn't just referring to camera manufacturers, necessarily.  I was referring to the computer industry in general. 

And I was staying on topic (LR/ACR/PS the incorrect comments about updating them to use new cameras). 
The issue with a bank app and your old cell phone isn't OT. 

[hjoseph7]

digitalDog  since your Ferrarri is the first one out of the gate,  why don't you help us old geezers in our beat-up chevy's instead of pointing fingers at us. It does not solve anything.. Thank you

[digitaldog]

1 minute ago, hjoseph7 said:

digitalDog  since your Ferrarri is the first one out of the gate,  why don't you help us old geezers in our beat-up chevy's instead of pointing fingers at us. It does not solve anything.. Thank you

I have!

I corrected you about the issues using older (within reason) Adobe products to access much newer cameras at no cost by using the DNG converter. By your own doing, you can't. 

I provided the fact that at some point, no one can go back to such old OSs that any software can support a newer piece of hardware (and vise versa). 

I then provided an inexpensive means to use prehistoric software on prehistoric hardware still while using new hardware with new software. 

If you can't subscribe to any solution, you're stuck with your own created issue (new camera, really old software). 

"I'm not about talking and finger-pointing and complaining. I'm about getting things done." - Christine Quinn

[digitaldog]

My old (and grand) Leaf scanner can’t run on anything without a SCSI interface.

I can’t run that Leaf on my 2022 Mac. Or anything close to that vintage; the last Mac that could was released in 1998!

And for a mere $135, today I could get a Mac to run that scanner and move its TIFFs (including TIFFs I made back in 1990) to the 2022 Mac and load them into the latest version of Photoshop. 
 

[AlanKlein]

5 hours ago, digitaldog said:

And I was staying on topic (LR/ACR/PS the incorrect comments about updating them to use new cameras). 
The issue with a bank app and your old cell phone isn't OT. 

So was I staying on topic. I was showing that the entire computer industry and related fields including cameras work to obsolete software and hardware to force the public to buy new equipment and upgrade software so they can increase their profits.