Green patches after using haze removal in Photoshop Elements 2021

[digitaldog]

One of the really cool features of RawDigger is the Auto OE Offset in the preferences which update the Under/Over exposure feedback provided and explained here:

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/exposure-for-raw-or-for-jpegs

What we see is that Frans sunset image is at least 3EV off! By placing that offset, one can now see the updated under exposure readings. IOW, this is what the raw would have been had Frans added 3 EV instead of guessing/assuming from the 'spot on his Z50'. 

Such tools allow photographers who have a desire to understand how their meters work and affect the raw data do so for optimal exposure. Of course, those of us shooting transparency film did this routinely with little of the (massive) fudge factor we see in the Z50 raw supplied.  Exposing (for raw or anything else): Photography 101.  

[digitaldog]

 

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/exposure-for-raw-or-for-jpegs

How much does it make sense to further increase the exposure, and how will the overexposed areas change from said increase?

To control the overexposure warning, we’ve added a special feature to version 1.03 of RawDigger, see RawDigger Preferences ->Over/Under Exposure -> Overexposure Detection -> Auto OE Offset.

For instance, for the given image, let's simulate an additional exposure compensation of +1/2 stop during the shot, to do so let’s set a negative shift in the Auto OE Offset field

Edited March 7, 2023 by digitaldog

[digitaldog]

One of the exposure URLs didn't make it correctly and it's a great site:

http://www.onezone.photos

Welcome to All Things OneZone
This site supports my book…
The Optimum Digital Exposure

Edited March 7, 2023 by digitaldog

[TonyW]

24 minutes ago, digitaldog said:

Tony, you are opening the 16-bit PSD in ACR? I don't know why anyone would but yes, I can do this as well. Yes, I see clipping with the overlays on. But when I select "Open" it opens for me in Elements without the overlay. 

This behavior is the same for me with or without clippings on or off. Do you also see the black was clipped too? As to be expected with the way the image was rendered:

I'm on a Mac. Elements 2023. The version of Adobe Camera Raw it installed (for Elements) is 14.40.

Andrew the images should be the raw.  Anyway like you I see the red and the blue clipping warnings.   I am on a PC and the version is PSE2023 ACR v 14.4.  I probably did not explain correctly (too much of a hurry - sorry for any confusion caused!) in the prior post and actually it does not matter if you turn on or off clipping.

First image shows Camera raw with Fran AZSunsetraw.Nef.  I increased exposure by 1.3 and used Adobe standard profile.  Highlight and shadow clipping showing

When this is opened in PSE there is no highlight issue seen, until you select Enhance > Haze Removal, accept default and apply.  After a short time of working the green highlights appear.  Increase the zoom to 67% and above and the green vanishes.

 

[digitaldog]

Thanks, Tony, that's clearer; yes, we're on the same page here. Well almost. 

I set the clipping as you did in Adobe Camera Raw on the NEF, and yes, the red (then green after Haze removal) in highlights seem to match. I think you and I and John are in agreement on that. 

But I don't see any blue (or colored thereafter) black clipping after Haze Removal. Odd. 

And I don't see this on anything on my end. I thus far haven't found a raw that behaves like Fran's. Not an exhaustive search by a long shot. But odd. 

Here's the puppy example with Adobe Camera Raw set to clip (overlay on) massively. 

Then the image in Elements after running Auto Haze Removal. No overlay. WTF is wrong with Frans raw?

[TonyW]

Andrew that is very odd, with that amount of clipping in your image you would have thought that Haze removal would display a similar overlay to Frans raw.  I will see if I can repeat what happens with Frans image with on of mine

Did you see the green overlay vanish when image zoomed above 67%?  What to make of that?

 

[digitaldog]

Yes, the green overlay disappeared by zooming in. 

[TonyW]

Caveat, I am a complete noob to PSE and struggled as i did not and have not RTFM; so features were not where i expected them to be if even available.

Nagging concerns about green overlay really bugged me and the fact that it vanishes once zoom exceeds 67% only to return when zoomed out again.  I tried half a dozen of my own Neff images from D90 and D800e and whatever I did I could not repeat the green overlay effect.  I did not try but wonder if the overlay would appear in a print; I suspect not.

Another quick play with Frans raw file I noticed when I first saved the image showing green overlay it changed to sRGB and saved image shows no green once opened in PSE!

So looked for a way to save a 16 Bit TiFF.  Image>Mode only shows RGB & 8 bit options WTF!!

Looked in Image>Convert Profile>Convert to Adobe RGB Profile.  Aha! Voila! Eureka! once clicked on this the green overlay vanishes on screen and the saved TIFF is fine

I have to say that I still do not know what to make of this particularly why only Frans raw displays this; admittedly with only few additional raw images tested.

When exiting Canera Raw into PSE I could not find a way to change the profile which seems to be sRGB although 16 bit selected; I may have missed the obvious!  In that case once the image appears in PSE if Image>Convert Profile>Convert to Adobe RGB selected then Haze removal applied there is no green overlay

Edited March 8, 2023 by TonyW

[digitaldog]

I'm wondering if what's unique to Frans's raw and green overlay is:

Underexposure 3EV, “over develop” (push “Exposure” more than 1.3+) and other kind of wacky rendering edits. I have to dig up some brackets I made for my exposure article I don't think Frans will read but I don't believe I ever underexposed that far for the piece. Minus 1 was about as far as I thought was needed. Might have to actually shoot something that underexposed. But I'm not using anything that produced an NEF, another variable.

[digitaldog]

See Michaels post about color spaces in Elements (another Frans cross posting) here:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-elements-discussions/what-is-latest-acr-version-that-works-with-pse-2021-and-windows-10/m-p/13633057#M88836

Edited March 8, 2023 by digitaldog

[TonyW]

Thanks for the link Andrew to Michaels post about the colour spaces in PSE. 

Had to try myself and obviously found as per your link the choice you make in the
File menu >Color settings:
* No color management
* Always optimize for computer screens [sRGB]
* Always optimize for printing [Adobe RGB]
* Allow me to choose
The last three do not seem to work (always sRGB?) so this is a bug that is probably not going to be fixed any time soon, if ever.  And the omission of choice from the ACR dialogue window is sad but again unlikely to change.

Based on my admittedly limited experience with PSE my recommendation would be for users of the ACR implementation would be to make sure to edit in 16 bit and once brought into PSE that they remember to convert to Adobe RGB to ensure that as much of the cameras potential gamut is retained within the limitations imposed by Adobe RGB.  If you are happy to stay within the limitations of sRGB then it does not really matter.  Do you think that a sound recommendation?

Good to see that Adobe has provided a workaround to the latest version of ACR for those that have issues.

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by TonyW

[digitaldog]

On this end, no matter what I set for Edit>Color Settings (Elements 2023/Mac) , from raw (Adobe Camera Raw lite) I get sRGB. I'm told in the help page that Optimize for Printing should give me Adobe RGB (1998), but that's not the case. Setting "Allow me" doesn't do this either. I can choose 8-bit or 16-bit but nothing gives me anything but (ugh) s(Satanic)RGB.

I tried rendering Frans NEF using Adobe Monochrome and, no clipping overlay after Haze Removal. 

[digitaldog]

Image under-exposed for the article; at least 1.5 stops. From meter (and several stops from optimal raw exposure). 

Open in Adobe Camera Raw lite in Elements, up 'exposure' as seen below with  red overlay. 

Open in Elements, apply Auto Haze Removal: no green overlay.

Again begging the question, WTF is wrong with Frans's raws? 

Edited March 8, 2023 by digitaldog

[TonyW]

I think you hit it out of the park when you made these comments
[quote]I'm wondering if what's unique to Frans's raw and green overlay is:

Underexposure 3EV, “over develop” (push “Exposure” more than 1.3+) and other kind of wacky rendering edits....[/quote]
I began searching for any underexposed images of my own.  Slightly embarrassed to say I found one and managed to replicate the green overlay. 

Must make my excuses first I was checking out my new Fuji GFX and finding out what all the buttons did.  During the course of my play I accidently fired off some shots this is one (for some reason I saved all the images including this one!!).  This is massively underexposed at least 5+ stops.  Rawdigger will not even attempt to render an RGB image it is that far out.  Hope you can accept and believe I am not that bad a photographer 😇

Images probably self explanatory, so just a little detail:

ACR images the top is the initial import into PSE version of ACR.  Bottom image exposure slider to max at +5, still no sign of clipping to the red channel, so increased Sat,Vib,Clar to maximum giving me the required red clipping.   PSE conversion top image Open into PSE image appeared OK until I applied the Haze correction; bingo, green overlay appears.  Bottom image after Convert to Adobe RGB a normal looking image; well considering what we started with 😁

Edited March 8, 2023 by TonyW

[digitaldog]

Good testing. I might deliberately shoot a test 3 EV under, but it seems the answer to the initial question for the OP is:

1. Don't under-expose your images as grossly as you are doing (multiple articles about teaching* him how not to were provided).
2. Don't push 'exposure' (brightness) in a raw converter in sRGB on grossly under-exposed images.
3. Understand the green overlay isn't in the data; it's a preview only.  The data is still very suboptimal from the click of his shutter. 
4. Using 16-bit data doesn't help in any of the GIGO: Garbage In Garbage Out practices above in any of this. 

* "Learning is not attained by chance. It must be sought for with ardor and attended to with diligence." -Abigail Adams

 

On 3/3/2023 at 12:42 PM, frans_waterlander said:

Any ideas and/or solutions? 

Yes: see above!

Edited March 8, 2023 by digitaldog

[digitaldog]

Resolution:

[digitaldog]

Resolution confirmed: