Green patches after using haze removal in Photoshop Elements 2021

[frans_waterlander]

42 minutes ago, digitaldog said:

I've tried nearly half a dozen 16-bit documents, but can't reproduce what shows up in your one document. 

This is a sample of many images, 16-bit, Adobe RGB (1998) zero issues in Elements: Try it. 

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip

This is another sample of many images, 16-bit, ProPhoto RGB and again, zero issues in Elements: Try it. 

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Gamut_Test_File_Flat.tif

 

Test_File_Flat.tif

Yes or no; you see the green? 

How do I open the .zip and .tif?

[frans_waterlander]

15 minutes ago, frans_waterlander said:

How do I open the .zip and .tif?

When I right click and choose open in a new tab, a new tab opens but it closes right away. Open in a new window or open in incognito window opens those windows but no information shows up.

[digitaldog]

43 minutes ago, frans_waterlander said:

And here is the RAW file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/el8hxdgc8acgvnr/AZsunsetRAW.NEF?dl=0

Trying your images is next. Tried to download updated ACR version, but it crashed the program and after recovery, the same old version still shows.

Got your raw, open it, do some minor edits (you could do your own, save out DNG, so the edits are embedded), and open it in Elements. No green overlay. I have no idea what you're doing to this poor raw, but there isn't anything in that raw (as Tony and I spoke about earlier) that is the issue. It is maybe how you're rendering it. I'm using the real Adobe Camera Raw and ending up in 16-bit, ProPhoto. Again, no issue with Haze, auto, or with any settings. 

The raw rendering is subjective. I'm not suggesting the version I provided quickly is ideal or what you want from the raw. But then nothing produces any issues in Elements in 16-bit with Haze Removal. Its also very unlikely this edit is needed (Clarity or DeHaze would be the way to handle this with the raw data, not afterward). 

Here's the TIFF (albeit in ProPhoto/16-bit) from the raw:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5pdg5tpm36ebmc2/AACkV6Ael4wnYyhppI-mVlbaa?dl=0

It's your processing. I can't find any 16bit images that produce this problem. It boils down to GIGO:Garbage In Garbage Out. Maybe you need to rethink whatever you're doing with your version of Adobe Camera Raw on this data or simply not using Haze Removal. 

[digitaldog]

Oh, in that folder on Dropbox is the XMP which, at least with real Adobe Camera Raw will allow you to open your raw with MY edits used to produce the TIFF also in that folder. Again, the best way to share this is with DNG as the raw plus edits are all in the container. But I have no idea if Adobe Camera Raw lite in Elements would deal with it (but it should, it's DNG). If you want to go back and forth sharing true raw plus edits, DNG is the easiest way to do so. But any features in real Adobe Camera Raw not supported in Adobe Camera Raw lite (Elements) wouldn't work. 

[digitaldog]

3 hours ago, TonyW said:

There is no sign of any channel clipping as can be seen in the histogram attached; in fact another stop or so would still be within an acceptable exposure range.

Indeed, as also shown in RawDigger, it is under-exposed and there isn't any clipping of any channels. That's 100% due to the operator of the raw converter. 

[digitaldog]

3 hours ago, frans_waterlander said:

Totally agree. I can tweak the ACR to not blow out any channels, but that gets me a very, very dark image. 

Your data, my edits (so no), ZERO clipping, and lots of detail. Imagine if it wasn't a stop and half under-exposed! 

Edited March 7, 2023 by digitaldog

[john_wheeler6]

1 hour ago, digitaldog said:

Got your raw, open it, do some minor edits (you could do your own, save out DNG, so the edits are embedded), and open it in Elements. No green overlay. I have no idea what you're doing to this poor raw, but there isn't anything in that raw (as Tony and I spoke about earlier) that is the issue. It is maybe how you're rendering it. I'm using the real Adobe Camera Raw and ending up in 16-bit, ProPhoto. Again, no issue with Haze, auto, or with any settings. 

The raw rendering is subjective. I'm not suggesting the version I provided quickly is ideal or what you want from the raw. But then nothing produces any issues in Elements in 16-bit with Haze Removal. Its also very unlikely this edit is needed (Clarity or DeHaze would be the way to handle this with the raw data, not afterward). 

Here's the TIFF (albeit in ProPhoto/16-bit) from the raw:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5pdg5tpm36ebmc2/AACkV6Ael4wnYyhppI-mVlbaa?dl=0

It's your processing. I can't find any 16bit images that produce this problem. It boils down to GIGO:Garbage In Garbage Out. Maybe you need to rethink whatever you're doing with your version of Adobe Camera Raw on this data or simply not using Haze Removal. 

Thank you for the detailed analysis of this problem.  The open question what did the OP do to make it happen.

I do not use Photoshop Elements (only Photoshop 20XX) and the problem to me looked very similar to soft proofing in ACR with sRGB other than the result instead of the OPs green.

I took the OPs original post with the Green Areas and overlayed in a GIF a screen shot of the raw image brought in with the settings being sRGB in ACR.  The highlight clipping warning was turned on.

The red of the raw highlight clipping overlays quite well with the green area.

I saw no real dependence on whether it was 8 bit vs 16 bit and no real dependence on the dehaze slider.  Where there was a big difference was if ACR was set to preview in Adobe RGB (no green) and in sRGB where the clipping was easily seen.

Full screen shots in ACR would verify the conditions of the ACR settings and if I am correct, it will show having it set to sRGB causes the issue.

Also note when the file is saved and brought through the same path you don't see the red/green highlight clipping as the image is already in sRGB and reduced in gamut.  So it explains that behavior as well.

So other than the color being green vs red, it fits pretty well.  Thought it was worth posting for consideration.

John Wheeler

[TonyW]

5 hours ago, john_wheeler6 said:

Thank you for the detailed analysis of this problem.  The open question what did the OP do to make it happen.

I do not use Photoshop Elements (only Photoshop 20XX) and the problem to me looked very similar to soft proofing in ACR with sRGB other than the result instead of the OPs green.

I took the OPs original post with the Green Areas and overlayed in a GIF a screen shot of the raw image brought in with the settings being sRGB in ACR.  The highlight clipping warning was turned on.

The red of the raw highlight clipping overlays quite well with the green area.

I saw no real dependence on whether it was 8 bit vs 16 bit and no real dependence on the dehaze slider.  Where there was a big difference was if ACR was set to preview in Adobe RGB (no green) and in sRGB where the clipping was easily seen.

Full screen shots in ACR would verify the conditions of the ACR settings and if I am correct, it will show having it set to sRGB causes the issue.

Also note when the file is saved and brought through the same path you don't see the red/green highlight clipping as the image is already in sRGB and reduced in gamut.  So it explains that behavior as well.

So other than the color being green vs red, it fits pretty well.  Thought it was worth posting for consideration.

John Wheeler

Yes, that looks the most likely candidate so far to explain the green/red highlight issue.  Good catch John 👍

So Frans did you make a screen shot of the Camera Raw screen and just crop to the image area leaving out the surrounding dialogue box? 

[digitaldog]

I agree too John. The OP massively clipped the red channel as shown in Levels overlay in Photoshop. But if I try other images, I can't reproduce this so I have no idea what edits in “ACR lite” caused this. There is no clipping in the raw data.

The answer and fix would appear to be: don't clip your channels.

Why Elements shows this only on 16-bit data at a certain zoom ratio???

[frans_waterlander]

5 hours ago, digitaldog said:

The answer and fix would appear to be: don't clip your channels.

Totally agree with that. My ACR Auto setting makes the overall image look good, but blows out the reds in many areas. When I reduce "Exposure" in ACR to the point where nothing is clipped and then use Curves to increase the brightness to where I want it, I can use Haze Removal without the green overlay. Problems solved. Why PSE shows this overlay and why in 16-bit and not in 8-bit? Who knows, but to me it looks like the OOG warning feature wasn't totally removed from PSE.

Thanks for all your constructive and helpful inputs. I learned a lot.

Edited March 7, 2023 by frans_waterlander

[digitaldog]

12 minutes ago, frans_waterlander said:

Totally agree with that. My ACR Auto setting makes the overall image look good, but blows out the reds in many areas. When I reduce "Exposure" in ACR to the point where nothing is clipped and then use Curves to increase the brightness to where I want it, I can use Haze Removal without the green overlay.

Not that simple! My Gamut Test File has multiple color channels 'blown out' (paper white for one, and elsewhere one channel or two is fully saturated as seen below), yet the green overlay doesn't appear in Elements. Again, the only document that I've seen do this is the one you supplied. 

[frans_waterlander]

I have many sunset images taken over about 15 minutes and they all have this green overlay after haze removal in varying degrees. I can take other images, for instance seascapes, blow out the reds on purpose and get a similar same effect, though less pronounced. So to me it looks like a combination of very contrasty images with blown out reds and a peculiar behavior of PSE, possibly unique to the 2021 edition.

Edited March 7, 2023 by frans_waterlander

[digitaldog]

1 minute ago, frans_waterlander said:

I have many sunset images taken over about 15 minutes and they all have this green overlay after haze removal. I can take other images, for instance seascapes, blow out the reds on purpose and get the same effect, though less pronounced. So to me it looks like a combination of very contrasty images with blown out reds and possibly the 2021 edition of PSE.

I have no doubts you're doing something somewhere to cause this. Both under-exposing and clipping in a raw converter I don't use, in a color space I'd never use to encode from raw data. 

I can't replicate it. Maybe Tony can. 

[frans_waterlander]

7 minutes ago, digitaldog said:

I have no doubts you're doing something somewhere to cause this. Both under-exposing and clipping in a raw converter I don't use, in a color space I'd never use to encode from raw data. 

I can't replicate it. Maybe Tony can. 

When I use 16-bit and use ACR Auto settings, I blow out the reds in many areas and in my PSE edition it results in the green overlay after using haze removal and nothing else. So, blame ACR Auto.

[digitaldog]

16 minutes ago, frans_waterlander said:

I blow out the reds

So, blame ACR Auto.

Sorry, under-exposed images and then sloppy ACR rendering; that's all on you if you've forgotten what you admitted to:

54 minutes ago, frans_waterlander said:

Totally agree with that. My ACR Auto setting makes the overall image look good, but blows out the reds in many areas.

Oh, maybe since as a professional photographer and experienced user of raw converters, including the real ACR, I'm still unable to produce the issues you have reported. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by digitaldog

[frans_waterlander]

11 minutes ago, digitaldog said:

Sorry, under-exposed images and then sloppy ACR rendering; that's all on you if you've forgotten what you admitted to:

Oh, maybe since as a professional photographer and experienced user of raw converters, including the real ACR, I'm still unable to produce the issues you have reported. 

You don't have my ACR version or my PSE version.

[digitaldog]

7 minutes ago, frans_waterlander said:

You don't have my ACR version or my PSE version.

Moot. I don't under expose my captures or clip highlight like you do either. 

[frans_waterlander]

5 minutes ago, digitaldog said:

Moot. I don't under expose my captures or clip highlight like you do either. 

Don't go back into insult and superiority modes please. Nikon decides how much exposure headroom is used. I can't do ETTR on the spot because my Z50 doesn't tell me what the maximum values are in the R, G and B sensors. And you can thank Adobe ACR Auto mode for royally blowing out the hightlights.

[digitaldog]

1 minute ago, frans_waterlander said:

Nikon decides how much exposure headroom is used. I can't do ETTR on the spot because my Z50 doesn't tell me what the maximum values are in the R, G and B sensors. And you can thank Adobe ACR Auto mode for royally blowing out the hightlights.

Absurd and wrong. On multiple fronts.

You can thank yourself for both suboptimal exposure and blown highlights. To suggest otherwise only further convinces your readers not to take you seriously. 

[frans_waterlander]

3 minutes ago, digitaldog said:

Absurd and wrong. On multiple fronts.

You can thank yourself for both suboptimal exposure and blown highlights. To suggest otherwise only further convinces your readers not to take you seriously. 

Insult and superiority mode it is. I'm done with you, Andrew, this time for good.

[digitaldog]

3 minutes ago, frans_waterlander said:

Insult and superiority mode it is.

Insult? Facts: under exposure of your capture (two of us provided the facts), blown highlights you admitted to. I’m sorry I offended you with my facts and common sense.

5 minutes ago, frans_waterlander said:

 I'm done with you, Andrew, this time for good.

Please don't make promises you can't keep. 

[TonyW]

Frans, as far as exposure for raw goes with your Z5 I believe that Nikon metering is calibrated to about 12.5% (at least for spot reading).  If you take a spot reading of an important highlight area you should have about +3EV before you clip highlights in the raw file.  Your raw file is less than optimal exposure so highlights are well contained as seen earlier with zero clipping of any channel.

From all that we have seen thus far the attachment seems to be a likely candidate to explain  what you experienced.  Please ignore the difference in image colour and the difference in OOG/clipped warning.  While our ACR versions are different the engines will be the same with some omissions for the Lite version in PSE:

1.  Your posted image illustrating the green highlights is I believe likely to be a crop from the Camera Raw dialogue in PSE (in my version the clipping warning is red of course)

2.  You have set Camera Raw to output your files as sRGB

3.  You have the clipping warnings on when you made the screen capture

4.  Unknown which Camera profile you picked, either one of the Adobe or a Camera Matching one.  In any case you will find that the clipping changes depending on the camera profile chosen.

5.  I suspect as the raw image was presented too dark that you increased the exposure slider and possibly changed other parameters before altering the Dehaze slider.  All these changes will affect the look of the image and the amount of clipping shown

6.  If you deselect the clipping warning highlighted in the attached GIF when you have your 16 bit image then the green highlights should disappear.

Edited March 7, 2023 by TonyW

[digitaldog]

1 hour ago, frans_waterlander said:

I can't do ETTR on the spot because my Z50 doesn't tell me what the maximum values are in the R, G and B sensors. And you can thank Adobe ACR Auto mode for royally blowing out the hightlights.

I understand this is a new hobby so hopefully, these primers on exposure will help:

Articles on exposing for specifically and only raw:
http://www.onezone.photos


http://schewephoto.com/ETTR/

https://luminous-landscape.com/the-optimum-digital-exposure/

http://digitaldog.net/files/ExposeForRaw.pdf

https://www.fastrawviewer.com/blog/mystic-exposure-triangle

https://www.fastrawviewer.com/blog/red_flowers_photography_to-see-the-real-picture

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/exposure-for-raw-or-for-jpegs

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/beware-histogram

https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/calibrate-exposure-meter-to-improve-dynamic-range
 

Edited March 7, 2023 by digitaldog

[TonyW]

Actually my earlier guess at what may have happened is incorrect.  I could not explain the green so decided to download PSE to the good ladys PC.

Seems PSE has a different way of working than expected when bringing images in from Camera Raw.  It may be a feature that is documented somewhere within the Adobe archives, who knows?

Anyway opening Frans raw file 16 bit in Camera Raw and turning on the clipping warning the clipped areas turn red.  If the image is opened in PSE the green highlights appear where the red was - effectively showing OOG warning !  Turning the clipping warning off in Camera Raw and opening the image in PSE the green is gone (sounds like a Cillit Bang ad. (that may be understood by UK audience!)

[digitaldog]

Tony, you are opening the 16-bit PSD in ACR? I don't know why anyone would but yes, I can do this as well. Yes, I see clipping with the overlays on. But when I select "Open" it opens for me in Elements without the overlay. 

This behavior is the same for me with or without clippings on or off. Do you also see the black was clipped too? As to be expected with the way the image was rendered:

I'm on a Mac. Elements 2023. The version of Adobe Camera Raw it installed (for Elements) is 14.40.