Where / how far to load film?

[NMGPhotos]

Ok, so I know how to load film (put it in, connect it to the spool, etc.) but I am wondering how far you should pull it out in order for shots to line up properly. I would assume each advance of the film moves it a specific distance, and the lead is a specific distance in length. So where should you line up the film so that you advance to the correct spot so you don't miss any of the actual film? Or does it not matter and I am thinking about this wrong?

[Dustin McAmera]

 

Are we talking about 35mm?  In that case, there isn't a correct start point. All that matters is that, while you're loading, you can't help exposing the leader to light, and also enough film to reach across from the cassette to the take-up spool. So you need to wind that much on to get to unexposed film for your first photo. Once the film is firmly attached, I close the back and wind on and fire the shutter, three times. Then (my camera lets me do this; not all cameras do) I adjust the frame counter to '1'.

In the back of the camera, near the take-up spool, there's a tiny toothed wheel that engages with the perforations. That's what measures the length when you advance the film.

[NMGPhotos]

2 minutes ago, Dustin McAmera said:

 

Are we talking about 35mm?  In that case, there isn't a correct start point. All that matters is that, while you're loading, you can't help exposing the leader to light, and also enough film to reach across from the cassette to the take-up spool. So you need to wind that much on to get to unexposed film for your first photo. Once the film is firmly attached, I close the back and wind on and fire the shutter, three times. Then (my camera lets me do this; not all cameras do) I adjust the frame counter to '1'.

In the back of the camera, near the take-up spool, there's a tiny toothed wheel that engages with the perforations. That's what measures the length when you advance the film.

Ok yeah, sorry I didn't specify 35mm. So is the entire film technically exposable? (so you can just start shooting as long as the section being exposed was inside the cartridge (and not part of the lead)?

[Tony Parsons]

It may be that the blank spaces between the frames are confusing you - these are not an intrinsic part of the film, but exist as unexposed areas when each frame is wound on. Although there are frame numbers encoded along the perforations (i.e. 6, 6A) these are merely an indication to a lab for when reprints are requested. The reason that they are in pairs is to cope with the smaller frames (18x24mm, as opposed to 36x24mm) which are produced by half frame cameras.

Also, many cameras have a coloured marking near the take-up spool, indicating where the tongue of the film protruding from the cartridge should be placed for the wind-on mechanism to work correctly. BTW, which model of camera are you using ? If you look in the manual, there may be more helpful information contained therein.

HTH

[NMGPhotos]

Just now, tony_parsons1 said:

It may be that the blank spaces between the frames are confusing you - these are not an intrinsic part of the film, but exist as unexposed areas when each frame is wound on. Although there are frame numbers encoded along the perforations (i.e. 6, 6A) these are merely an indication to a lab for when reprints are requested. The reason that they are in pairs is to cope with the smaller frames (18x24mm, as opposed to 36x24mm) which are produced by half frame cameras.

Also, many cameras have a coloured marking near the take-up spool, indicating where the tongue of the film protruding from the cartridge should be placed for the wind-on mechanism to work correctly. BTW, which model of camera are you using ? If you look in the manual, there may be more helpful information contained therein.

HTH

I have an old Ikonta I got at a flea market. The manual wasn't much help in this, but I do think I understand more now.

I do think the frame counter on it is broken though (or at least nor reliable). Will I be able to tell with tension when turning the advance knob ones I reached the end of a roll of film?

[Tony Parsons]

Not familiar with this make, but with most cameras that is indeed a reasonable indication. If winding on feels stiff or difficult, best to stop - better to sacrifice a few unexposed frames than to risk ripping the film out of the cartridge and losing all your images. As you get to know the camera, you'll be more able to fathom out its idiosyncrasies. Best of luck anyway.

Edited December 3, 2022 by tony_parsons1

[NMGPhotos]

Thanks 🙂 When I got it it actually had a broken takeup (or at least missing a piece?). But I bought another one off eBay. I was originally planning on replacing it but the eBay one was in much worse condition. At least it had a proper takeup though. 🙂

I took apart my original one and lost two washers before I saw where they went, but I don't think they were critical as all other functions seem to work.

You can see my other thread on the camera to see it (and me originally thinking the shutter blades were a crack lol).

[Dustin McAmera]

This is a post-War camera, and it's Zeiss, who made some of the best stuff. I'm not certain, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't have a good 'auto-stop' advance mechanism; that is; it won't let you wind too far. On the other hand, the frame-counter is part of the same mechanism.. Try it and see!

I have a couple of cameras which should have auto-stop winding, but it's failed because the parts are worn inside. One of my cameras (it's a Voigtländer) I just have to spot the frame counter clicking forward, and stop winding. If I get that right, it spaces the frames right.

 

[NMGPhotos]

The frame counter seems unreliable (or at least does not move in the way I expect). In playing around with it, it seems to go up, but mainly when the film is being reversed? Probably not what's intended. Maybe those washers were important, lol.

There's a really old thread here that appears to be someone who was in a similar boat: 

Perhaps, I could open up the one I got off eBay and compare to see where the washers should go. It's rusted to all hell though (or at least some components are stuck) so it's gonna be a doozy to take apart.

[NMGPhotos]

Ok not much was wrong. I ran a roll of film through (was ok wasting it) and I could definitely tell when it was done. Frame counter seemed to move slowly up to ~5 or so, but reverse really moved it far (all the way to the end). Not sure if that is the intended behavior, but yeah.

[AlanKlein]

4 hours ago, NMGPhotos said:

Ok yeah, sorry I didn't specify 35mm. So is the entire film technically exposable? (so you can just start shooting as long as the section being exposed was inside the cartridge (and not part of the lead)?

The camera automatically advances the film let's say three shots after you close the back.  (manually by cranking the film advance lever three times or automatically in some cameras by battery power)  That assures that your first shot was protected from light inside the cassette before you closed the back. The shot counter should be at 1 at that point.  Each subsequent shot is advanced by the camera manually or automatically so you don't overlay subsequent shots making all the shots the same small difference from each other.  Good luck.

Edited December 4, 2022 by AlanKlein

[Gary Naka]

35mm film is advanced by the sprocket, not the take up spool.

So one often recommended procedure of the past was, to advance the film so that the sprocket holes on BOTH sides of the film engage the sprocket teeth on the advance mechanism, before closing the back of the camera.  The idea being that you have more reliable film advance than with just one side engaged.
Although I OFTEN loaded short, so that only one side was engaged.  That was to try to get another frame or two out of the roll.   I don't recall ever having trouble.

[Dustin McAmera]

The OP is using a Zeiss Ikon Iknota 522/24, with knob advance. My impression is that the spool tension is what advances the film on this.

In another thread, I gave a link to a manual. If you read that, it says that once you have the film attached to the take-up spool, you should adjust the frame counter to the rhombus-mark  (like <> ), then close the back, and wind on to '1'. It should stop you at '1'.

..but the OP has already said he's not sure if the mechanism is working.

[chuck909]

That reminds me of a "funny" story from my days working for Brown Photo in Minneapolis, Minnesota.  A customer walked in with a plain white envelope and told me he wanted his film developed.  I opened the envelope and inside was a roll of exposed Kodacolor neatly cut into six inch strips.  When I questioned him, he said he did it that way because that was the way we returned it to him.  He just wanted to make it easier for us.  Just one of those times when you had to be very careful not to make the customer feel like a fool.  On the other hand, when you take up a new hobby, it's not always easy to get it right the first time.  

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by chuck909

[JDMvW]

It's a mistake to try to load too short a leader. You risk having the film come off the sprocket and getting a blank roll....

[Dustin McAmera]

Yes. At any time along the roll, you can reassure yourself by checking that the rewind knob turns as you wind on; and yet I've still got it wrong sometimes.

[Sandy Vongries]

With manual loading cameras, I used Leica and Nikon, I always backwound slightly and watched the rewind lever for the first few shots.  When loading and unloading the later Nikons became motor driven it was simply a question of careful loading according to the instructions.

[SCL]

#1 RTFM

#2 Follow the instructions in the manual 😁

[NMGPhotos]

Just shot a roll over the past few days and hopefully it all turned out fine! Lost the button to allow for reverse, but it just threaded onto a push-stick anyway, so I could just push in on that. Frame counter was rarely accurate, but I did feel the tension when it came to the end of the roll and reversed it from there. Here's to hoping 🙂

[AlanKlein]

20 hours ago, Gary Naka said:

35mm film is advanced by the sprocket, not the take up spool.

So one often recommended procedure of the past was, to advance the film so that the sprocket holes on BOTH sides of the film engage the sprocket teeth on the advance mechanism, before closing the back of the camera.  The idea being that you have more reliable film advance than with just one side engaged.
Although I OFTEN loaded short, so that only one side was engaged.  That was to try to get another frame or two out of the roll.   I don't recall ever having trouble.

What do you do with shots 37 and 38 when you run out of room of the 6x6 slot plastic film holder?

[Ken Katz]

37 minutes ago, AlanKlein said:

What do you do with shots 37 and 38 when you run out of room of the 6x6 slot plastic film holder?

Many decades ago I shot and developed a whole lot of bulk loaded tri-x, and would shoot until I couldn't advance the film anymore.  Could have well more than 36 exposures on a roll.  We just put the shorter than 6 shots section of negatives in a separate glassine negative envelope.  This was an era before archival plastic (or before we could get that stuff or knew about it).   When shooting slides, we would just get a few more mounted slides in that pretty yellow box from Rochester NY.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Ken Katz

[AlanKlein]

15 hours ago, Ken Katz said:

Many decades ago I shot and developed a whole lot of bulk loaded tri-x, and would shoot until I couldn't advance the film anymore.  Could have well more than 36 exposures on a roll.  We just put the shorter than 6 shots section of negatives in a separate glassine negative envelope.  This was an era before archival plastic (or before we could get that stuff or knew about it).   When shooting slides, we would just get a few more mounted slides in that pretty yellow box from Rochester NY.

That's true.  Two extra mounted slides and extra 4x6 prints from the one hour processor store. 🙂  

[Gary Naka]

On 12/4/2022 at 4:04 PM, AlanKlein said:

What do you do with shots 37 and 38 when you run out of room of the 6x6 slot plastic film holder?

Go to another page.

Same with printing contact prints.  36x on one 8x10 sheet and a strip of paper for the 7th strip, which was taped to the edge of the sheet, then folded over so that it did not stick out.  Looked klugey, but it worked.

[rodeo_joe1]

On 12/3/2022 at 10:10 PM, NMGPhotos said:

So is the entire film technically exposable?

Yes. There's no difference between the 'leader' and any other part of the film. 

[NMGPhotos]

20 hours ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

Yes. There's no difference between the 'leader' and any other part of the film. 

Nice! Thanks for the confirmation 🙂