When is a photograph no longer a photograph?

[samstevens]

Labels sometimes exclude and other-ize both people and things, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. Labels can also be helpful in categorization and record-keeping, in organization and differentiation. So, I'm sometimes less interested in what's labeled what and more interested in who's labeling what's what and why.

In this thread, the whys vary and are telling in their own way. The act and process of labeling can reveal a whole lot more than the label does.

Labeling something a photo, for me, is not unlike labeling something a street photo. A street photo doesn't need a street as its subject. Some street photos are taken on beaches. It's a sensibility more than a particular element. For me, a photo, whether it's a collage, a direct flatbed scan, a photogram, or something straight out of the camera, is something that invites photography to my mind, that was made with the sensibility and feel of a photo. Many post processed images have the feel of an illustration to me and so that's the light in which I see them. And many post processed or manipulated images lean into a photographic sensibility and that's the light in which I see them.

As I mentioned earlier, I love the old Sorites Paradox, which wonders how many grains of sand it takes to make a heap of sand and then, beyond that, a beach. The reason I love it is that there's no clear and distinct answer, just a gray area we're kind of forced to live with. In this paradox, vagueness itself is valid.

Gray areas are where much art happens, even art that's in color. So, it's all good, as the kids say.

Edited April 16, 2023 by samstevens

[inoneeye]

36 minutes ago, samstevens said:

So, I'm sometimes less interested in what's labeled what and more interested in who's labeling what's what and why.

 

36 minutes ago, samstevens said:

Gray areas are where much art happens,[...]

+1. As one who thrives in the gray areas I am happy to let others ('them') worry about labels. As to why I think it is in the nature of many to find comfort in having labels at hand.
I think perhaps that what is under surface of this discussion is a question of the boundaries of the medium. We have many photo genre categories but when we question if it is a photo aren't we if fact questioning the image in relationship to the medium? 

Edited April 16, 2023 by inoneeye

[samstevens]

5 minutes ago, inoneeye said:

a question of the boundaries of the medium.

questioning the image in relationship to the medium? 

Yes. We are questioning the image in relationship to the medium. And artists have consistently questioned and expanded both their mediums and art itself. The questioning may be as significant as whatever answers are proposed at a given time.

SAM GILLIAM: Art Beyond the Frame

[inoneeye]

Of course. But for now some photo sourced images I am not comfortable calling a photo. But I enjoy browsing through them on PN.  Photo Illustration, mixed media, AI, etc. are descriptive sub categories.. In time with the help of the labelists we may have new terminology that we can use to sort it out. But I don’t see that obscuring my subjective line to is it a photo. In time I may … but I don’t need it to.

Edited April 16, 2023 by inoneeye

[samstevens]

11 minutes ago, inoneeye said:

But for now some photo sourced images I am not comfortable calling a photo.

Yes. You said earlier, "I know when an image that uses photography crosses my subjective line and has become something I would not call a photograph." Me, too, though I'm not sure I always know it. Sometimes, I'm genuinely confused, and ok with that. They do seem to be, as you say, subjective lines. Recognizing that is key to not imposing my own subjective line onto others. For now, I think it's ok if we each think of those lines individually. In time, there may be more agreed-upon objective criteria by which to label images that begin with a camera but are different from photos or images that don't begin with a camera at all but make their way to photo sites. Right now, I think new technologies and the newness of digital in the historical scheme of things has the world in a more fluid and developing state of mind when it comes to determining just what's what and just what to call each what.

[AlanKlein]

I don't think there's any issue using AI for art just as one would create an oil painting.  The problem is when AI is used to present a documentary photograph that isn't authentic in its representation. At least with Photoshop, you started with a photo or photos.  With AI, you don't even need a camera or leave your computer desk. 

[mikemorrellNL]

See my response on the thread 'Images created by AI: 2 questions/

My 4 cts.

-each to his own (habits, preferences, aversions, opinions) with the emphasis - regarding PN - on opinions

- it's always good (and interesting!) to express personal opinions on PN

- whether PN-members support opinions (or not), it's worth bearing in mind that PN-membership represents a minuscule percentage of artists and photographers around the world.

- As we quitely debate these kinds of questions on PN, the world moves on.  Including the advance of AI into pretty much all aspects of our lives. And including the advance of AI into pretty much all aspects of (at least digital) photography.

 

 

[Allen Herbert]

When is a photograph no longer a photograph? PapaTango

Simple  answer.

You decide, if it is your photo or something else. Something else is some data based,, silly program, created by a programmer ,who has never taken a photo in their lives.

If you need some computer program, to enhance your photography, try taking up knitting.  Lot of involvement, in a tactual level, without some silly computer programmed to wiping your rear.

Get out there, discover the world, throw away that armchair and the computer goggles.

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

"I don't think there's any issue using AI for art just as one would create an oil painting" Alan.

Methinks, us humans create Art and oil paintings.  Is there some entity which has taken over from us Ai?  Methinks not.

Okay, be be kind, it helps us explore our Art, and supplement/create it on a special level. My mum does that, I don't need some blokes computer program who was probable high at the time;).

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

My Freddy, downloaded this special super intelligent entity ,for me, Ion.

Always struggled with stuff like, one plus one makes two thing. Now my super entity does it all for me, And it does terrific photos; all my mates are dead jealous.

Freddy, if you buy him some beers, will do the same for you. He say he likes you, so should be no probs.

 

 

 

[Allen Herbert]

 

"just what to call each what" Sam.

That is confusing, maybe, the sun don't shine bright enough for me to understand.

Personally, I much prefer to wander the world , taking  some photos. Okay, some folk like to sit looking at a computer monitor ,and make up some photos with machine intelligence...AI.

Their thing not mine.

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

Boring,,  ,boring.

[Allen Herbert]

Off subject.

I prayed last night, and asked God to to save me from being a iPhone photographer..

I've lost so many..

[hjoseph7]

The average person would tell you it's not a photograph or is it a painting. 

[PapaTango]

Back in the past, graverobbers dug up dead things for different purposes.  This thread was gasping before it died in April.  Five months later it is quite decomposed.

Why disturb the corpse?  ☠️ 

[samstevens]

3 hours ago, PapaTango said:

Why disturb the corpse?

Need for attention?

[inoneeye]

Necroposting

[samstevens]

1 hour ago, inoneeye said:

Necroposting

slash : the knife and the cut cross at the top : consonance

[Allen Herbert]

Canon ,Sony, Nikon join together against fake A1 images.

Photography, to my mind is getting out there and exploring the world. Sitting in your bedroom, hunched over a computer, stealing other folk images seems to be a amazing boring thing to do.