Speed-lights and color correction...

[rodeo_joe1]

9 hours ago, Bill C said:

Try Rosco or Lee, and get CTO in full, 3/4, half, and 1/4

Isn't the 3/4 CTO redundant if you already have 1/2 and 1/4? Surely you can combine the 1/2 + 1/4 sheets to get a 3/4 correction. 

And as you say, two sheets of 1/2 CTO = 1 full CTO. 

But maybe four sheets of 1/4 CTO would be taking frugality a bit too far. 

Then there are the dreaded CFL lamps that seem to defeat any standard WB setting. Often being outside of the CT range of cheaper cameras. 

Edit: A belated idea. Why not carry some spare LED bulbs of known CT and tint, and temporarily swap them for the bulbs fitted in the room to be photographed? 

It wasn't unknown in the days of slow film to swap out domestic bulbs for a 275 W photo-flood. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by rodeo_joe1

[hjoseph7]

I wasn't able to recreate the issue in my own bathroom but take a look at this video. This "might" explain things: 

 

[AJG]

I've never had much luck with Pentax TTL flash for good exposure, even when using a Pentax flash  on the camera's hot shoe.  But I had no idea that a flash trigger could cause color balance problems...  My primitive White Lightning triggers seem like an even better investment now.

Edited December 13, 2022 by AJG

[rodeo_joe1]

16 hours ago, hjoseph7 said:

I wasn't able to recreate the issue in my own bathroom but take a look at this video. This "might" explain things: 

 

The guy was using Auto White Balance, and then wonders why things went to sh×t? - Durrrh! 🙄

But at least he shot RAW, so a quick move of the editor's CT slider would have rectified the issue without any fuss. 

Footnote: IIRC there was a TV show with the catch-phrase "Interesting..... But stupid!". 

Edited December 13, 2022 by rodeo_joe1

[hjoseph7]

10 hours ago, AJG said:

I've never had much luck with Pentax TTL flash for good exposure, even when using a Pentax flash  on the camera's hot shoe.  But I had no idea that a flash trigger could cause color balance problems...  My primitive White Lightning triggers seem like an even better investment now.

I have a set of Cactus V Transeivers that I have not used, because they are overly finicky. I tried stacking my Canon ST-E2 transmitter on top of the Cactus V sitting on the hot-shoe of my Canon 6D, but it did not set off the flash for some reason ? Then I attached one Cactus Transeiver to my camera and another to the flash via sync cable and that seemed to work.  I think I have one of those Dumn hot-shoes lying around somewhere for Canon camera's, so when I do find it, I will give it a try.

As far as shooting RAW, my guess is that it would be too cumbersome for the Editing Department and would lead to inconsistencies between images.     

Edited December 13, 2022 by hjoseph7

[rodeo_joe1]

On 12/13/2022 at 3:02 AM, AJG said:

But I had no idea that a flash trigger could cause color balance problems...

A trigger cannot possibly alter the CT of a flash. The correct explanation, as given in the linked video, is that the fancy trigger 'tells' the camera that it's a particular type of speedlight, and different from what's actually being used. This, in turn affects the White-Balance that the camera applies, and the SOOC JPEGs have the wrong colour. 

All this could be easily avoided by selecting the White-Balance manually, or taking a custom WB from the lights via a white card or 'expodisk' filter. 

It can also be easily rectified in a RAW shot, with a simple tweak of a slider or two, or by using the grey-point tool. RAW files have no fixed White Balance. They just take a default WB from the camera metadata when opened, but whatever WB range is possible can be applied.

Setting AWB and only shooting Jpeg is just asking for things to get out of hand. 

FWIW, I don't see how an SB-900 (which is what that mad Godox trigger pretends to be) in bounce mode can give a much cooler CT than any other flash. Bouncing should warm up the CT for a start. Not make it bluer.

Nikon also make it far too easy to apply a Blue/Amber alteration to a preset WB while selecting it; by rotating the wrong control wheel. Just a thought. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by rodeo_joe1

[AJG]

I realize that a flash trigger shouldn't have any effect on white balance--my comment was related to the paradox of automation intended to make for better results with less effort on the part of the photographer that instead created more work in post because of bad firmware. 

[hjoseph7]

I'm using a Canon ST-E2 Transmitter and yes it does have 5 contacts that match the 5 contacts on the Hot-Shoe of the camera.  So I'm assuming that it does communicate with the camera, or all those contacts would not be there. When I turn on the transmitter, there is a little red light under ETTL that lights up and I'm not sure how to turn it off ?  I'm also not sure if the camera adjust the White Balance due to the information it receives from the Transmitter, but I can tell you that the color can vary from orange-yellow, to yellow, to pink, depending on the lighting.  Keep in mind that our 'wondrous' eyes automatically adjust for the color of light, so its kinda hard to tell what you are dealing with. 

Luckilly, this does not happen too often, so when it does happen, I can quickly change the tint myself on my iPad before I submit the image(s), or I just let the guys in Editing handle it. Sometimes I might change the AWB to Tungsten on the camera, if things get too yellowish, but then there is a good possibility that I might forget, then all my susequent images come out blueish. I once did that and had to do a retake !  

Edited December 15, 2022 by hjoseph7

[glen_h]

The flashtube on the Vivitar 283 has a slight yellow color, to balance closer to daylight.

Others might also have that.

Or, in the case of digital cameras, have the camera make the adjustment.

I suspect a Skylight 1B filter would do fine, too.

In any case, xenon light is a little bluer than daylight.

[rodeo_joe1]

On 12/14/2022 at 4:37 PM, AJG said:

I realize that a flash trigger shouldn't have any effect on white balance--my comment was related to the paradox of automation intended to make for better results with less effort on the part of the photographer that instead created more work in post because of bad firmware. 

OK. Sorry, I didn't get your subtext on first reading. 

Yes, there's a lot to be said in favour of the acronym 'KISS'. 

But that video devolves into pure comedy when the recommended cure is to place a dumb-trigger between the camera hotshoe and the 'smart' trigger. Whaaat??? 😂

[rodeo_joe1]

On 12/15/2022 at 1:44 AM, hjoseph7 said:

Keep in mind that our 'wondrous' eyes automatically adjust for the color of light, so its kinda hard to tell what you are dealing with. 

That's why all decent digital cameras have a histogram display. And why a couple of sheets of white paper should be in your kit of essential accessories. 

[AJG]

1 hour ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

OK. Sorry, I didn't get your subtext on first reading. 

Yes, there's a lot to be said in favour of the acronym 'KISS'. 

But that video devolves into pure comedy when the recommended cure is to place a dumb-trigger between the camera hotshoe and the 'smart' trigger. Whaaat??? 😂

Agreed about the "solution" in this video--tossing the trigger that causes the problem and replacing it with something functional would be my answer.

[hjoseph7]

I found one of those Dummy hot-shoes attached it to my camera, then attached the Canon ST-E2 transmitter to it as demonstrated on the Video. By golly I was able to fire off the flash (Canon 580EX II) remotely . I can't test it right now because I'm home, so next assignment I get I'll be sure to test it to see how it works. I'll keep you posted. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by hjoseph7

[rodeo_joe1]

14 hours ago, hjoseph7 said:

By golly I was able to fire off the flash (Canon 580EX II) remotely .

Yes, but you do realise that you now have a 'dumb' trigger and no E-TTL control? 

And why would using all-Canon products have the same issue as using a Godox trigger on a Nikon camera? - As shown in that video. 

Edit: From Canon's spec for the ST-E2 - 

"Colour temperature info communication

No" 

Edited December 20, 2022 by rodeo_joe1

[hjoseph7]

6 hours ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

Yes, but you do realise that you now have a 'dumb' trigger and no E-TTL control? 

And why would using all-Canon products have the same issue as using a Godox trigger on a Nikon camera? - As shown in that video. 

Edit: From Canon's spec for the ST-E2 - 

"Colour temperature info communication

No" 

I think we are on a different page here ?  Real-Estate Photography differs from cheesy-portraits and weddings,  in that the color of light changes from room to room, due to the variety of lightbulbs being used and other issues. Taking a Custom White Balance every time you go from one room to another would be extremely cumbersome and would take too much time. 

Shooting RAW is out of the question, not only because we have to transmitt the images we take On-site to our Servers, it would be way to cumbersome for the editing department that has to deal with images coming from all 50 states !!  The original issue was that the color temperature  varied from room to room, house to house in some of my images. Something had to be causing this change in color temperature ? Color Temperature issues are well known in the industry and even the guys in Hollywood use color correction Gels over their Strobes to correct it.  I thought it was my flash(Canon 580 EX) ?

After watching this video, there is a good probabilty that it's not the flash, but the Transmitter that uses ETTL to control the light output on the flash. After trying the Dummy hot-shoe, the ETTL light on my Canon ST-E2 Transmitter no longer comes on ! Not sure how this is going to affect color temperature while I'm out in the field, but it's worth giving it a try. It might save me some time...      

Edited December 20, 2022 by hjoseph7

[rodeo_joe1]

On 12/20/2022 at 5:16 PM, hjoseph7 said:

Taking a Custom White Balance every time you go from one room to another would be extremely cumbersome and would take too much time. 

So a few extra seconds taken to get it right is 'too cumbersome'?

And you dismiss wedding and portrait photographers as 'cheesy'? 

Why not do the job right? Since many posters here have suggested options to get better colour consistency that you've seemingly rejected. Or are you OK with taking a few low-quality snaps of a house and rushing off?

Because there's no quick fix, and relying on camera automation only makes matters worse in most cases. 

On 12/20/2022 at 5:16 PM, hjoseph7 said:

Not sure how this is going to affect color temperature

It won't! The CT of your flash stays exactly the same. All that varies is the camera applied colour-balance if you rely on AWB. Wile relying on auto-exposure can also change the shutter speed and vary the ratio of flash to ambient light.

[hjoseph7]

I tried it today. So far I got clean white light in all my pictures, even the bathrooms, but it could be a Fluke since i only shot 3 properties today...

Edited December 24, 2022 by hjoseph7
added picture

[hjoseph7]

"Why not do the job right? Since many posters here have suggested options to get better colour consistency that you've seemingly rejected. Or are you OK with taking a few low-quality snaps of a house and rushing off?"

Joe I like to keep my job, so I follow the company's rules. The guy in the video wrote several books on Real-Estate photography some of which I purchased. Unlike yourself, and others he has years of experience in the field, he's not a light weight. So why not give him the benefit of the doubt ? Actually this video was posted on the company's website.  BTW, a lot of these 'assembly-line' photography shops don't like to hire veterans. They rather hire talented newbies that are more trainable and cause less problems. This I heard from one of the managers there and it's not the first time I heard it...

Edited December 24, 2022 by hjoseph7

[rodeo_joe1]

6 hours ago, hjoseph7 said:

Unlike yourself, and others he has years of experience in the field, he's not a light weight.

So insulting!

Many contributers here, including myself, also have many years experience. We, unlike that pratt in the video, could at least work out that turning a 'smart' trigger into a dumb one by bypassing its communication pins, was totally ridiculous and counter-productive. 

But fine. Follow some dumb-ass vlogger. (Who probably earns far more from books and videos than from taking real-estate snaps.) Just don't waste our time asking for advice that you're determined to ignore, and put down as 'inexperienced'. 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by rodeo_joe1

[hjoseph7]

6 hours ago, rodeo_joe1 said:

So insulting!

Many contributers here, including myself, also have many years experience. We, unlike that pratt in the video, could at least work out that turning a 'smart' trigger into a dumb one by bypassing its communication pins, was totally ridiculous and counter-productive. 

But fine. Follow some dumb-ass vlogger. (Who probably earns far more from books and videos than from taking real-estate snaps.) Just don't waste our time asking for advice that you're determined to ignore, and put down as 'inexperienced'. 

 

Typical 'Grand Poobah' statement. Actually I appreciate the input and opinions of others.  I have gotten some very good and helpful advice from people on this website throughout the years. However I have a mind of my own,  I am not a child, or a light weight.  I have a Degree in Photography and received advice from very qualified professionals throughout my photographic experience.  Actually,  I resent people trying to impose their wills on me. Although I'm not a high-flying, high-paid photographer like you are I am somewhat proud of my achievements. Maybe you need to put your HUGE ego on the shelf and go out and take some pictures. If I remember correctly, Photography is part of the Arts Curriculum in most Colleges.  It is not Engineering , or Mathematics,  or Electronics, that's the bottom line. The clients that are paying you are not interested in that...

BTW I only see 2 contributors to this thread LOL  😅

Edited December 24, 2022 by hjoseph7

[ilkka_nissila]

On 11/8/2022 at 2:15 PM, hjoseph7 said:

One thing Manufacturers rarely talk about is 'color correction' in Speed-lights. The more expensive Studio Lights usually have some type of color correction, so that when you turn-down the power, the color of the light looks the same. Not so with speed-lights such as my Canon 580 EX II. Don't get me wrong, this is a great professional flash unit that can put up with all the hardships of commercial photography, however the color-correction is virtually non existant.

I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I have heard of the term color-corrected flash tubes. As a matter of fact, that was one of my main deciding factors I used when choosing my studio lights.

I never really noticed any color shifts when turning down the power on a Speed-light because usally I'm using ETTL, until recently when I started using the Canon 580EX on the job in Manual Mode. 

In Manual Mode if you turn down the power on that flash unit from lets say full power (1/1), to half power (1/2), there is a significant shift in colors that you can see in your pictures, even on the back LCD of your camera ! A white wall will start looking pinkish. If you further turn down the power to let's say down to (1/4) that white wall might start looking yellowish.  

To avoid this I usually keep the flash at full power(1/1) and turn-down the exposure either by aperture and/or shutter speed, this way my images look uniform throughout. 

A lot of photographers are switching to speed-lights for example "Joe Mcnally" who is an expert in using Speed-Lights instead of bulky studio strobes. Maybe he knows something that I dont, because in the field, I have found that there is no way a Speed-Light can match a color-corrected Studio Strobe ?   

 

 

It is true that typical speedlights produce light that varies somewhat in colour as you change the output energy whereas traditional studio flash manufacturers tend to pay more attention to constancy of light in terms of output and colour. In a studio environment one typically uses manual flash control so that the setup is as precisely controlled and reproducible as possible. In location shoots, however, e.g., an event or press photographer would often use TTL flash which introduces quite a lot of shot-to-shot variability but can help achieve a usable image in difficult and fast-changing situations. I guess it is just a matter of priorities, with somewhat variable output energy of speedlights, the slight variation in colour might not be considered offensive, either. After all, the flash isn't going to follow the ambient color temperature automatically without applying filters and so the colour won't be as precise as in a studio environment where all the lights are likely to be of the same manufacturer and highly consistent.

 

Based on his books, McNally often uses filters with his speedlights and so he can correct the colour of his lights, but not always with the aim of neutrality; he often uses gels for effect, to create a feeling to the images, or to simulate a certain type of natural light which may or may not be available at the location at the time of the shoot.   I think he has a method of working where he takes quite a long time to set up his shoot and takes test shots and then makes a series of adjustments and test shots until satisfied. McNally also uses larger flashes and is not exclusively a speedlight user.

 

If you want a compact or on-camera flash which has tightly controlled color temperature, you might want to look at Profoto. The A10 is a hot-shoe flash which has a color temperature range of +- 150 K. That is not quite as good as their best flashes for studio use, but it can be mounted on a camera.

[hjoseph7]

On 11/8/2022 at 11:17 AM, Ken Katz said:

Is your issue the flash tube of the Speedlite, or that at lower flash power, the color temperature of the ambient light is overpowering the daylight balanced flash tube?  If you set you camera exposure the same, and match the flash output of the Speedlite to the flash output of Norman, does the image with the Norman look better?  I would of course set the shutter speed to the maximum sync speed available.

 

After extensive testing, I found out that the color temperature, or color cast, has more to do with the amount of Ambient light hitting the sensor than anything.  Too much ambient light and the scene leans toward slight Mangenta coloring. If the ambient light and the flash are about equal then the scene leans heavily toward Yellow(ugh !). If the flash slightly over powers the ambient light,  the scnene looks OK, but you have to be careful not to overblow things. This only happens under certain Tungsten lighting conditions, so I can't be more specific right now... Only that I have a work-around when it does appen.