Are photos capable of abstraction?

[samstevens]

I try to stay in a constant state of confusion just because of the expression it leaves on my face.

—Johnny Depp

What better place to be confused than in a philosophy forum? And what better place to experience confusion than when in the throes of a photography project that's evolving? If some of je ne regrette rien's photos wind up with the expressiveness of Johnny Depp's face, it may just be because of the various confusions that led him there?

 

But, is confusion the issue here? If it were, I would think the accuser might clearly (not confusedly) explain what mistake is being made when it comes to "symbolic" and "abstract." An explanation is much more likely to reduce confusion than a simplistic declaration that it's occurring.

 

Or is this more about armchair quarterbacking, where one reserves for himself the right to complain about how others think and operate but is impotent when it comes to offering descriptive thoughts of his own on the matters at hand?

 

[Wait for it ... the trollish response is almost inevitable ... "I already did." Sure, you did. Or some other deflection that avoids a direct address of the subject of abstract and symbol.]

What is important is to spread confusion, not eliminate it.

―Salvador Dalí

Good photographers are willing to take risks, which can include asking questions and thinking out loud, and even thinking unclearly at times. Good photos often are open-ended, ambiguous, and good series often have elements of the photographer working something out, with a willingness to show that.

[q.g._de_bakker]

What better place to be confused than in a philosophy forum? And what better place to experience confusion than when in the throes of a photography project that's evolving? If some of je ne regrette rien's photos wind up with the expressiveness of Johnny Depp's face, it may just be because of the various confusions that led him there?

 

But, is confusion the issue here? If it were, I would think the accuser might clearly (not confusedly) explain what mistake is being made when it comes to "symbolic" and "abstract." An explanation is much more likely to reduce confusion than a simplistic declaration that it's occurring.

 

Or is this more about armchair quarterbacking, where one reserves for himself the right to complain about how others think and operate but is impotent when it comes to offering descriptive thoughts of his own on the matters at hand?

 

[Wait for it ... the trollish response is almost inevitable ... "I already did." Sure, you did. Or some other deflection that avoids a direct address of the subject of abstract and symbol.]

 

Good photographers are willing to take risks, which can include asking questions and thinking out loud, and even thinking unclearly at times. Good photos often are open-ended, ambiguous, and good series often have elements of the photographer working something out, with a willingness to show that.

You're confusing philosophy with being confused. Shows you're confusion makes you think silly things.

[samstevens]

As I said, the sure sign of a troll. Not a word about abstraction and symbolism. Empty vessel.

[q.g._de_bakker]

As I said, the sure sign of a troll. Not a word about abstraction and symbolism. Empty vessel.

I think i said enough about abstration. And symbolism.

The rest of the thread is just confusion. Presented, mostly, by those who confuse being confused with philosophy.

If you insist in confused confusion of clear concepts (and ideas), be my guest. But do not insult either people who point out that confusion, nor philosophy and philosophers.

[inoneeye]

Clear concepts in creative expression by photo is an oxy moron. It is not so prosaic and easy to pin down. and it is not unimportant.... in particular if the photographer wants to communicate something that is not in front of the camera.

Abstract, representational, signs, symbols, abstraction, symbolism etc do not follow a singular defined path. They weave together, work off of each other and meld seamlessly combining in a manner that defies the often inadequate basic definitions... or facts (more like edicts imo).

“Facts may be colored by the personalities of the people who present them.” Reginald Rose

“There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact.” Arthur Conan Doyle,

Seems to me that the pop forum is a good place to question and ponder how does photography communicate and suggest, express abstract ideas from within you to a viewer.

Edited February 21, 2022 by inoneeye

[je ne regrette rien]

@q.g._de_bakker

 

Let's try it this way

• this is a philosophy photography forum and has certain participation rules;
  
• I've taken part in it since well over a decade and we have had very interesting discussions about subjectivity and objectivity, about art, etc.;
  
• We have always abided by the participation rules
  
• Within the photo.net rules, every member is free to propose topics and to discuss them, as we are doing.
  

Of course you are free to think that

The rest of the thread is just confusion. Presented, mostly, by those who confuse being confused with philosophy.

• as far as I'm concerned, but I'm sure that this is true for the other members who enjoy this conversation, I have a very clear view on symbolism and abstraction and what the difference is and what is intended symbolism in photographs and what is intended abstraction. Thus this thread makes very much sense to me and has improved my understanding and awareness of how I want to use the photographic medium and its language. Most members taking part seem to have fun, also working together improving our understanding and helping each other. We are also very much aware of the subtle differences between the concepts we use and that blurs may be there. And that's part of our idea of philosophy: discussing and clarifying such concepts;
  
• in the light of this, maybe you want to help the participants in this conversation to increase their understanding and awareness of why you judge this thread as you do, which would help us take the matter further constructively and to avoid getting stuck.
  

Edited February 21, 2022 by je ne regrette rien

[samstevens]

A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards; as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push.

—Ludwig Wittgenstein

Maybe a photo, to adapt Wittgenstein, is a way to "show the fly out of the fly bottle."

The I's have it

 

This photo is a pretty radical crop from the original. In reducing much context and eliminating more of the scene, some abstraction takes place. It also zeroes in on the symbols. I took it because I was thrilled the moment the wind caused a tear in Scott's eye. I had already tilted my camera up to include the cross when the tear happened to form. So, sure, I was motivated by the potential of the symbols, but I was more moved by the moment than any concept that might have been at play.

 

This is a different type of photo from the ones M. regrette is talking about, where the series starts from a fairly specific concept in mind. Noting this difference, though, I think there's an accidental quality or aspect to many uses of symbols and to the expression of concepts as well, which is why exactness of concept is virtually impossible to communicate. It's the difference between poetry and even most fictional prose on one hand and a journal article on the other. Now, granted, were I to make this part of a series, I might more fully develop an idea and communicate something quite a bit more specific, but I think always with room for interpretation and an array of conceptual reactions. I think of the concepts inspired in viewers to be hopefully in the same ballpark and maybe even in the same section of the stands, but probably not pinpointed down to a specific row or seat.

 

So much of this is a matter of degrees of clarity and ambiguity and not an on/off switch.

 

When it comes to symbolism, I think a lot of the magic is in the counterpoint between spontaneous recognition and inspiring vaguery.

Edited February 21, 2022 by samstevens

[Ricochetrider]

hmmm. I'm confused but in an abstract way... that must be symbolic of something, yes? :D

 

That photo of St Peters & the river... nice, ambient photo- but I wouldn't have come away with "magnificence & decay" had I not been led down that path. Maybe it's just me, but to my eye, most photos are simply window dressing. IOW I don't "put" a lot into them... mostly. Not to say photos don't move me, but I don't interpret them inwardly. Or outwardly for that matter. This discussion is.... interesting. If not circular. Or zig-zaggedy. In the end Ive come away with... well, I honestly cannot say what it is I've gotten out of reading through this thread.

 

But maybe that's the whole point of *philosophy*... to debate something endlessly yet arrive at nothing... putting much deep thought into nothingness the whole time. Wait isn't that more like the abstract concept of Zen? I'll have to think on this some more. Clearly. Or obviously, maybe. Is philosophy a tunnel? Open at both ends and traffic may pass in either direction as long it's only this way or that?

 

Oh what the heck, here's a recent photo. It's a "light painting" of a guy actually painting.

His name is Igor. Make of it what you will.

 

Cheers, everybody. You guys are awesome.

 

[samstevens]

to my eye, most photos are simply window dressing

Reminds me of the story my brother used to tell when he worked at a prestigious Madison Ave. bookstore and local penthouse dwellers would buy books based on the color of their jacket covers, to coordinate with the decor of their rooms.

 

Philosophy does draw some conclusions, one of which is that people do stuff for all kinds of reasons.

 

But, you're right, philosophy doesn't always reach conclusions. Sometimes, it's good just to get the mind going in different directions. An active and inquisitive mind, for some, can be inspiring.

 

Did you ever get on your bike and take a meandering ride, no destination in mind, just want to feel the road beneath your wheels? Others do this in different ways. A journey.

Edited February 23, 2022 by samstevens

[Allen Herbert]

"Did you ever get on your bike and take a meandering ride, no destination in mind, just want to feel the road beneath your wheels?" Sam

 

Sort of like having a smoke (tobacco of course) folks tell me. The flickering images of cartoons which make you giggle...just that comfortable, meandering feeling, without any purpose or conclusions;)

 

Got it. Philosophy...so I'm told.

 

Deep man.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

[Allen Herbert]

So, je ne,( Phil) is trying to incorporate various elements into his photography, so they stand out on their own, and morph into the photograph. Call them abstract or whatever.

 

Simple. His posted photo did not really speak of anything other than decay or symbolism.

 

Best of luck to him with his project, a very tough project.

[Allen Herbert]

Philosophy is a method of inquiry can be put to use solving practical questions...practical questions. but even more so it is practical when the practice one seeks to activate is solution of problems . Philosophy is not just concerned with thoughts and ideas. Actions and behavior are also. important!

 

Solutions of thought and coherent practical questions.

 

Within photography there should always be practical elements, as photography, is a visual study.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Allen Herbert

[Ricochetrider]

Reminds me of the story my brother used to tell when he worked at a prestigious Madison Ave. bookstore and local penthouse dwellers would buy books based on the color of their jacket covers, to coordinate with the decor of their rooms.

 

Philosophy does draw some conclusions, one of which is that people do stuff for all kinds of reasons.

 

But, you're right, philosophy doesn't always reach conclusions. Sometimes, it's good just to get the mind going in different directions. An active and inquisitive mind, for some, can be inspiring.

 

Did you ever get on your bike and take a meandering ride, no destination in mind, just want to feel the road beneath your wheels? Others do this in different ways. A journey.

 

(see quotated, emboldened, italicized & underlined above) Mission accomplished! (insert double thumbs up emoji here)

 

Yes and yes. I actually like philosophizing about stuff- and I really enjoy all things photographic, even long winded discussions (lord knows I'm as long-winded as anyone) about it.

 

I like the analogy of philosophizing compared to long meandering rides... most of my riding is actually exactly that. bumping around my "neighborhood " on increasingly longer day rides, following ridges and creeks, just seeing where my front wheel leads me- actively trying to get lost. Ya know, ultimately any active mind beats a dead one so let's celebrate just thinking while we're at it.

 

And at the end of the day, I like these threads or I wouldn't even hang out here to start with. But earlier for reasons not relevant here, I was restless and a bit cranky.

I got out of the house for a while and had a workout. The sun is high, if not on the slow slide towards evening. It's warm for a change- 65 degrees (F) or higher, and the day is lovely. SO my world has improved markedly since I posted earlier. And actually, I DO sometimes put some thought into photographs- evidence of such may be seen in any of my comments in the Photo Of The Week threads, and sometimes in the Critiques forum.

 

I realize I'm mostly amusing myself when I crack off like this... but I had one last thought, re: philosophy. It's like a parallelogram, with folks discussing the same things on parallel but separate planes, with people coming at things from angles both acute- and obtuse! ;)

 

 

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for providing interesting conversation and entertainment too! Along with the "occasional" photo. :)

[Allen Herbert]

"! Along with the "occasional" photo" Sam

 

How nice.

 

Sort of a special treat.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Allen Herbert

[Allen Herbert]

," I was restless and a bit cranky.

I got out of the house for a while and had a workout. The sun is high, if not on the slow slide towards evening. It's warm for a change- 65 degrees (F) or higher, and the day is lovely. SO my world has improved markedly since I posted earlier" Sam

 

I feel, the sun being high, and the feeling of the warmth. You have projected those feeling really well.

 

Sometimes, you do not need a photo.

[je ne regrette rien]

What better place to be confused than in a philosophy forum? And what better place to experience confusion than when in the throes of a photography project that's evolving? ...

 

But, is confusion the issue here? If it were, I would think the accuser might clearly (not confusedly) explain what mistake is being made when it comes to "symbolic" and "abstract." An explanation is much more likely to reduce confusion than a simplistic declaration that it's occurring.

 

...

 

Good photographers are willing to take risks, which can include asking questions and thinking out loud, and even thinking unclearly at times. Good photos often are open-ended, ambiguous, and good series often have elements of the photographer working something out, with a willingness to show that.

 

Wikipedia: the study of general and fundamental questions, such as those about existence, reason, knowledge, values, mind, and language. Such questions are often posed as problems to be studied or resolved.

 

That seems to me exactly what is developing here, given that photography is a language for sure.

 

There may be confusion, but sharing, clarifying, supporting, helps shedding light on what may sound like too roughly cut statements, as my initial one was (on purpose, I must admit). And concepts and statements are enriched and assume clearer meaning, or completely new meanings.

 

Let's not forget that everything grows through interaction, and that's what we do here.

[inoneeye]

Sam "This is a different type of photo from the ones M. regrette is talking about, where the series starts from a fairly specific concept in mind."

"Now, granted, were I to make this part of a series, I might more fully develop an idea and communicate something quite a bit more specific, but I think always with room for interpretation and an array of conceptual reactions. I think of the concepts inspired in viewers to be hopefully in the same ballpark and maybe even in the same section of the stands, but probably not pinpointed down to a specific row or seat."

 

To play off of Sam;

 

 

I started a self portrait project in 1977 and every year in February I add x3 photos to the project. This image is from x3 Feb 1991.

This was not a spontaneous street shot. I had a very specific intent and set out to make it what it is... to communicate what I wanted.

 

I have discussed this photo with many viewers prior to revealing it as a self portrait. That it is a self portrait, well that info obviously needs to be provided by me. But even lacking that info... the many varied descriptives, adjectives used by viewers have satisfied my intent quite well. Many have not liked the photo yet it communicated what i wanted it was not a target that requires a dead on read or bullseye.

Edited February 25, 2022 by inoneeye

[samstevens]

I have discussed this photo with many viewers prior to revealing it as a self portrait. That it is a self portrait, well that info obviously needs to be provided by me.

You've shown me this before and I don't remember if you introduced it as a self portrait or not. Revealing that info, though, has some important things to say about this thread and concept photography. I understand the desire to hear reactions prior to revealing your intent, but I actually think, from the viewer's point of view, I'd be just as happy having that info up front as not.

 

I think many tend to (wrongly) think about photography, art, and a lot of this stuff as a guessing game, or short of that, something they should be left to their own devices with. I'm not generally of that mind. How have I met friends over the years? Sure, some I met at a bar, not knowing a thing about them - struck up a conversation and enjoyed getting to know them - from scratch. Some I met through mutual friends or family, sometimes hearing quite a lot about them in advance, which gave me some info up front about them that likely "prejudiced" me in some way before meeting them. I can't say one way of meeting friends formed deeper or more lasting friendships than others.

 

So it is with photos. Were I to hear that this was considered a self portrait in advance or were I to see it titled as such, were I to hear what concept you were loosely trying to convey in advance or had you included a short bit of text with the photo would make a difference in my viewing, for sure, but I wouldn't consider one better than or more true than the other.

 

Since I think, in many ways, art mirrors life, I think that mirror extends to how we are introduced to all kinds of things and how we find all kinds of things, sometimes with advance knowledge, sometimes not.

 

Looking at this with as fresh a pair of eyes as I can muster, I'm most conscious of the play of foreground to background. The solidity, prominence, and focus of the foreground in contrast to the almost dreamlike and receding quality of the background sets up a kind of tension that seems also to contain harmony. I get a strong sense that the "feminine" background is kind of a mental image I attribute to the foreground. Less narratively considered, that may translate to a sense of the the layerings of reality that planes of vision and focus can represent. I feel a sense of photographer, of object photographed, and then of something a little more speculative or abstract. The feminine presence of the background is less tied to the reality of the foreground and so suggests to me an idea rather than simply a background object.

[inoneeye]

.” I understand the desire to hear reactions prior to revealing your intent,but I actually think, from the viewer's point of view, I'd be just as happy having that info up front as not.“

Me too.

When I mentioned my intent above I was thinking of it as in communicating an abstract feeling. For me as a stand-alone photo it resonates apart from the self portrait motivation I had for the project. Until recently it had only been presented as a standalone with no mention of the project. When I show it the self portrait aspect is secondary, less focused than when I place it in context of the project. I would only explain it when questioned about the odd working title I gave it. “Horseback riding in the rain”

Edited February 26, 2022 by inoneeye

[samstevens]

As I thought about it and look at it again, the perspective you shot it at and the upward gaze of the foreground bust suggest to me that the bust is imagining what's going on in the distance. If I view it as a self portrait, my sense is that there's a longing in or for a relationship going on. While there's more strength and focus in the foreground, there's more passion in the background, and I sense there's an important counterpoint between the two.

[je ne regrette rien]

As I thought about it and look at it again, the perspective you shot it at and the upward gaze of the foreground bust suggest to me that the bust is imagining what's going on in the distance. If I view it as a self portrait, my sense is that there's a longing in or for a relationship going on. While there's more strength and focus in the foreground, there's more passion in the background, and I sense there's an important counterpoint between the two.

I must say that these were exactly my own feelings, when I looked at this photograph. That it is a self-portrait I’m aware of, probably I don’t see it (yet). It seems to me that watching a reasonably large print would make me look at it in a different way. More aware of the implicit message.

[Ricochetrider]

Inoneeye’s “self portrait”, above, seems to perfectly portray the point of this discussion- photographic representation of an abstract concept.

 

Whatever Josh intended or was thinking, the photo remains wide open for interpretation -just as a stand-alone image- but the interpretive “door” swings even wider, when we discover it was intended as a look into his deeper “self”.

 

Interpreting this image as a self portrait invites all manner of thought, presents multiple paths to follow, and raises questions too. Now that’s deep!

 

Abstraction, indeed! Very well done.

[Supriyo]

As I thought about it and look at it again, the perspective you shot it at and the upward gaze of the foreground bust suggest to me that the bust is imagining what's going on in the distance. If I view it as a self portrait, my sense is that there's a longing in or for a relationship going on. While there's more strength and focus in the foreground, there's more passion in the background, and I sense there's an important counterpoint between the two.

 

additionally, I wonder how the portrayal of a bust as opposed to a real person impacts the image. That longing, lure and tension in relationship is not only in the physical or temporal distance between the foreground and the background (perspective and focal blur), but also in the manifestation of trapped emotions in stone (or plaster, doesn’t matter), the inability to reach out, to respond. At the same time, the bust symbolizes agony that is frozen in time, making it immortal. To me, it speaks of transient feelings (lust?, image of woman in background seems alive, hence perishable) vs timeless emotions (longing, agony, heartbreak, portrayed through a stone face that is immutable). The image shows that one can transform into another. In other words, what is today’s lust can become lifelong agony.

[Allen Herbert]

" bust symbolizes agony that is frozen in time, making it immortal."

 

I would think a photograph would also achieve that state of immortality. Especially a candid photograph, which offers a natural state of being, as opposed to a reflection of the imagination.