Confrontation

[leslie_cheung]

<p>To clarify my eating rudeness comment:<br /> <br /> I meant it is rude to take photo of people in the act of masticating, or chewing. I didn't mean don't take photographs over a dinner, a meal (take out or not). To explain further...it's akin to taking and then posting portraitures with the subject eyes closed, or the subject's eyes blinking. Those photos are not flattering i.e. ugly</p>

<p>If you disagree, have your subject(s) chew gum, or close or blink their eyes while taking their portraiture.</p>

<p> </p>

.

[donald_miller5]

<p>confrontation<br /> Link<br />https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/bf/e2/a3/bfe2a38c5b16257a9e707a6c134fd5e4.jpg<br /> </p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

 

<blockquote>

<p>In the real world,the amount of crimes against photographers, pales into insignificant comparison compared to other street crimes. Allen<br>

"It's still a bit too early to tell, don't you think, Allen? Timmy<br>

Timmy timid". No I don-t think .....I think you must exist in different parallel universe...sort of place where folks hide under beds because they are are too frightened to go out into the real world without double size nappies. ...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Wow! That's the first kind of response I've ever received from someone in an online discussion in my 17 years as a web lurker and contributor. I seem to have rubbed you the wrong way, Allen. Didn't intend to do that.</p>

<p>I was just merely stating that digital capture out in public is gaining wide spread awareness of its power evident in how it's affecting the lives of police. We're not even talking about the Pokeman game issue played on folk's digital devices causing them to put their lives in danger to the point they have to be warned in writing. I suspect there's more coming of these sorts of unintended consequences with digital communication and devices and newer apps now and in the future. </p>

<p>It's just we have no idea in what form it's going to take and how it's going to change how our motive is going to be perceived by strangers in public arenas in the future. There are other types of crimes that can be committed other than what's happened with the PJ that can be far worse.</p>

 

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>As an example of unintended consequences related to my picture being taken in the park has given me pause for thought.</p>

<p>I've lately been getting noticed as the dude who feeds the deer by hand by an ever growing throng of out of town visitors to the park. The deer have gotten used to me but are skittish around new visitors who don't bring them food. So when I'm feeding them the cellphones come out as well as those with DSLR's. </p>

<p>Why is this of concern to me? Our town's population has risen above 50,000 and so for the city to get federal grants and other funds the city has has to employ watershed management which requires they reduce e. coli and other contaminant runoff into the rivers and streams from feces of wild and domesticated animals such as dogs, geese and deer. </p>

<p>A couple of months ago I read my city council agenda considering an ordinance to stop the public from feeding the deer and to reduce the deer population. All those cellphone pictures showing up online of me and others feeding the deer are going to be the proof they need to enact that ordinance. I don't stop people from taking the photos of me because I enjoy them and their kids getting a kick out me feeding them. </p>

[donald_miller5]

Tim I agree with you but then the irony of the comment was in

a thread titled "confrontation" hit me.

[Spearhead]

<p>This thread will be closed if the insults don't stop.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Just saw on the local news last night of Pokeman Go players in the local park where I feed the deer and they show the journalist comically running into people, trees and tripping over curbs.</p>

<p>Wonder what kind of confrontation would occur if they bump head long into a photographer focused on getting that perfect shot and possibly causing him to drop or damage his expensive DSLR rig? </p>

[Ed_Ingold]

<p>Threats faced by photographers on the street are very real, and not necessarily related to their choice of subjects. So far this summer there have been several robberies in the Chicago loop (4 or more a week), which is traditionally a relatively safe place. At least two victims were photographers in Millennium Park, who were relieved of their cameras and other valuables, one in broad daylight. There's no safety in crowds.</p>

<p>Rather than "I'm bold, you're timid", think "situational awareness." A common MO is to engage the victim in a casual conversation then return with cohorts and move to the side and rear. Another MO is for a group to pass by or around a pre-occupied victim, then return, or variations on these themes. The "conversation" may be a ploy to size up the victim, to distinguish a sheep from a sheep dog. Threats are usually limited to intimidation or shoving, but some have been armed.</p>

<p>Sheep dogs circle to the outside, and only bark when necessary. Not a bad advice for starters.</p>

[rds]

<p >Lannie: Food for thought. My dad told me this a long time ago. Son there is nothing good usually going on from 12 am to 5am. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Any time you're out photographing people between the hours of 12am to 5am you are more than likely to run into less than favorable people more often than not. People that have reasons to hide their face because they may be doing drug deals, cheat on their wives/husbands or other suspicious things. So if you're out at that time you got to be prepared to take the good the bad and the ugly in stride.</p>

[rds]

<p>Sandy: 50 years of Martial Arts! You are a weapon.</p>

[Sandy Vongries]

<p>Robert -- once upon a time -- now I just stay out of trouble. Still remember, still have a little quick, fair shape for my age, but I'd rather not put it to the test.</p>

[Sandy Vongries]

<p>Just as a thought -- it is always a question of weighing risk vs. gain. If it is worth the risk to you to take a photo, be in a place that might be dangerous, the next thing is to do a little planning and reconnaissance. What are the best ways in and out of the area, where are will there lights (if at night) , where can you go for refuge if necessary? Where will there be people? How can you, and the friend you should bring (that is not concentrating on photos while you are) to watch your back, blend in in terms of dress and appearance? Where can you park to make a quick exit. A little planning will deliver options. When you have a plan, go in, take your photos and get out quickly before you become of interest. Life has risks -- up to you to decide which to take and how to manage them.</p>

[don_culligan]

If you have to go to such extremes for safety the maybe it is inappropriate to intrude. Thinking back to the question of

photo not taken maybe it,s not a good idea fif youare going to:disturb the environment that much

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Sandy, while I recognize the value of being aware and safe and empathize with many different ways of shooting, I think many people who shoot on the street or who shoot late at night don't want to go in, take their photos and get out quickly. I think immersing oneself in the feel of the people and place one is shooting can be vital to some types of photography, even as I recognize that quick entrances and exits can also result in photos that matter. I imagine some people would feel if they're concentrating too much on watching their backs, they may not be focused on what's desirable for them to get the photos they want.</p>

<p>Robert, I spend a lot of time on big city streets between the hours of 2 a.m. and 5 a.m. and find myself as likely to run into people coming from and going to after hours jobs as I am to run into folks involved in drug deals, as likely to run into late night unthreatening partiers as I am to run into people cheating on their spouses. There is something very intoxicating to me about those late night / early morning hours, the relative quiet, the neighborhoods lit by street lamps and neon signs. I think most people who hide their faces from cameras when they're out on the street do so out of a desire for a bit of privacy and a desire not to have their image posted to social media and Internet sites rather than because they are in the midst of doing something nefarious. </p>

[Brad_]

<p>Looking at the photos above along with some of the stories, I see nothing confrontational. I do see some people being annoyed, some eating - which rarely come out well as Leslie points out, and a guy joking around pretending to fight. Personally, they wouldn't cause me to release the shutter.</p>

[Sandy Vongries]

<p>Fred G It all boils down to individual judgment of risk vs. gain. You and probably others have made your decisions, and probably even have tactics in mind. I do also. You are also very familiar with your chosen areas.<br /> I posted for those who may not have thought it through along these particular lines. I agree about the value of immersion, but I believe that is an situation where an entre is needed in some cases. Living in several major cities with crime problems and visiting various others for work, I mostly went where I wanted to go, when I wanted to go. By the same token, I didn't go places where risks were unacceptable or where I might not have been welcome. Think of the street in the East Village -- possibly it was 5th Street between First and A, that had an Outlaw Biker Gang when I was there. If you knew a member of stature, probably o.k., if not...you didn't need to be there.</p>

[rds]

<p>Sandy I did mean anything negative, just my dry humor. Robert</p>

[Landrum Kelly]

<blockquote>

<p>I think many people who shoot on the street or who shoot late at night don't want to go in, take their photos and get out quickly. -Fred G.</p>

<p>I spend a lot of time on big city streets between the hours of 2 a.m. and 5 a.m. and find myself as likely to run into people coming from and going to after hours jobs as I am to run into folks involved in drug deals, as likely to run into late night unthreatening partiers as I am to run into people cheating on their spouses. There is something very intoxicating to me about those late night / early morning hours, the relative quiet, the neighborhoods lit by street lamps and neon signs. I think most people who hide their faces from cameras when they're out on the street do so out of a desire for a bit of privacy and a desire not to have their image posted to social media and Internet sites rather than because they are in the midst of doing something nefarious. --Fred G.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>You are probably correct in general, Fred, but at night I deliberately go into areas that are high crime areas--not to find or witness or document crime, but because those neighborhoods at night are typically more interesting to me. For that reason, I do not walk around so much as drive around, and typically (though not always) I stay close to my car when I get out to shoot--so that I can get out of there quickly, especially if I am using a tripod. (<a href="/photo/17878411"><strong>THIS</strong></a> was shot with a tripod. Most of my night shots are not, especially since I picked up a used D3s on eBay. I got that camera specifically for low-light shooting, and with it I typically get in and get out fast--typically no need for a tripod at ISO 6400 or 12800.)</p>

<p>In Charlotte proper, I have had to skedaddle in a hurry because of gangs, but in the exurb of Salisbury where I live, I find myself often in the railroad/industrial district. There is not much going on in "downtown," what there is of it in this bedroom community of Charlotte. So I drift off into the margins, places like <a href="/photo/17800393&size=md"><strong>THIS</strong></a> or <a href="/photo/17798639"><strong>THIS</strong></a>. I never know what I am going to run into.</p>

<p>Most people even in the high crime areas typically are just going about their business, hurting no one. I still get the sense that things can and do come apart quickly late at night. I could give a few anecdotes, but they would prove nothing.</p>

<p>Why do I go out and get these kinds of pictures, in places where there is some higher degree of risk than other places? I am not sure myself. I like the mood of dark streets, but perhaps I also like the sense of possible risk. In spite of that, I try to avoid doing something stupid. Hanging around too long can be downright stupid at times.</p>

<p>If I see an impending confrontation at night, I don't try to talk it through with people (not in general). I get the hell out.</p>

<p>One of the most threatening confrontations I ever had was with security people after I took <a href="/photo/13006952"><strong>THIS</strong></a> shot during the daytime. I had walked right up to the gate on this one. They actually chased me down--with their pickup truck--after I had gotten into my car and was driving away.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

[donald_miller5]

<p>Lannie, first I am not trying to trivialize anything and Salisbury does have some tough areas but it is a little tamer than lots of other areas. You can go a short distance and find a whole different environment. N Carolina is a place where you can have a stately house next to a trailer but it is getting gentrified in many areas. I worked in Salisbury a couple of years ago. I also worked Bellevue Hospital at night and a pharmacy on 133rd street in the Bronx. Now those were areas that were threatening. I learned to walked there like I belonged there but going back years later I knew I lost that ability. I was on a subway platform one night and saw two people approaching me and I thought it a good idea to mozy on. As I got to the stairs two more were coming down and they said "hey man how much money you got". I just took out my wallet and we had a nice talk and they let me keep $5 to get home on. You do not have to be a photographer for confrontation. Sometimes you happen to be someone who has a confrontation and happens to be a photographer and some times you are a photographer who has a confrontation.</p>

[donald_miller5]

Then there is the case of my late wife with confrontation before

during and after. No place in NY was safe for me<div></div>

[Landrum Kelly]

<blockquote>

<p>it is a little tamer than lots of other areas. </p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Nah! Well, Don, everything's relative when you're carrying a $4k rig and no gun--which I absolutely would never do. So. . . risk is relative, yes. No, I wouldn't want to try to compare it to the Big Apple. (What made you think I would?)</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

[donald_miller5]

<p>Just idle conversation. A little nostalgia and reminiscing having been there so often. Just turning some thoughts over about confrontation in general. I like to let my mind wander, I sometimes come up with a worthwhile though. I was not trying to take anything from you, just mentioned you since you live in a town I knew rather well nothing else</p>

[Ed_Ingold]

<p>It seems foolish to insert yourself into potentially dangerous situations without a good purpose and without adequate preparation. War correspondents do this, but with an ostensibly good purpose and not a little sense of excitement. Most of the time you don't need to look for trouble, it will find you.</p>

<p>The subway situation is a typical "rabbit trap," where the prey is driven toward a seemingly safe place. The tactical situation evolved to a "felony box" where you have no obvious route of escape. You did what you could, and it ended better than it might have.</p>

<p>The irony is the better prepared you are, the fewer risks you take. North Carolina is not a place like New York, where you are helpless by force of law, but you had better not be a provocateur.</p>

[lynnthomas]

Welp.....I have been away for a few days working and just now got back to this thread.

 

I really enjoyed the comments and was glad I could contribute something for once.

 

Didn't really care for the remark by Leslie about my photo. I used it as an example in answering Tim's question

about getting the "stink eye." I don't think it's a good shot for a lot of reasons but none of them are because the men

were eating. Why put it down?

 

I shoot often in Austin and have only felt threatened once and that fellow was mentally challenged....he followed me

shouting about something, ironically it wasn't about me taking photos. Once took photos of a photographer taking

photos.....fun day.

[Allen Herbert]

<p>""Wow! That's the first kind of response I've ever received from someone in an online discussion in my 17 years as a web lurker and contributor. I seem to have rubbed you the wrong way, Allen. Didn't intend to do that. Tim.</p>

<p>Apogees Tim. I miss understood your post. Hey, I got your heart beating a bit faster which can only be a good. Anyway you should have worked me out in those 17 years.</p>

<p>Back to the topic....</p>

<p>Like most things you have to understand your craft, and for street Photograhy its about understanding the street...awareness, and not putting yourself in needless danger.</p>

<p>Common sense an asset; sadly lacking in humanity.</p>