"Face" -- A New Book by Bruce Gilden

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>The question is to look at his photos and BG's and see if the difference in approach is visible in the photographs.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>That's only one question and it can be crucial, Barry. When photographers talk about their process and approach, I sometimes don't see it evidenced in their photos. On the other hand, sometimes I do. So I usually let the photos do the talking in terms of the effects of the photos on me. Once I've been affected, it will be interesting to see if the process and approach has led to a positive result. Often a very positive process doesn't lead to such great photos. <br>

<br>

People talk about how much heart and soul they feel and put into some landscape photos. And then they come up with very uninteresting landscape photos. Which makes me appreciate the positive experiences with regard to their connection with earth and their environment but doesn't make me think much of the photos they come up with. <br>

<br>

I remember several photos I've come across in the critique section here on PN where people talked about the sadness present when they took photos of relatives after a funeral. I'm sure they did sincerely feel sad but the photos didn't convey that even though the photos probably represented that to them and recalled their own sadness at the time. What effect, in terms of direct memory, a photo may have on the photographer who was present at the time will often be different from the effect on a viewer who wasn't there. <br>

<br>

And I've heard street photographers talk about their street connections, their respect for their subjects, the energy they feel from street shooting, and friendships they've established, all of which are very positive things for those who get something out of that way of shooting and experiencing the street, even as some of their photos, despite all that, still leave me cold and don't particularly convey any sort of intimate sense of connection to their subjects.<br>

<br>

I will say I don't get the sense Gilden was interested in making friends or connections on the street. Nor do I think he should have been interested in that. Even though I think it's also fine that some other photographers are.</p>

 

[Norma Desmond]

<blockquote>

<p>I said above: I will say I don't get the sense Gilden was interested in making friends or connections on the street. Nor do I think he should have been interested in that.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I'll add that, as a matter of fact, he may be reacting against what he perceives as something that's become a street photography meme, especially because he may often hear this but not quite as often see it in the photos.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p>Two PN photographers who are worth taking a look at relative to this idea of process and results are Mário Azevedo and Steve Gubin. Their photos don't strike me as the type that come from chats on the street or befriending their subjects and yet their photos often show a connection to their subjects and to an energetic street vibe that has much more of an effect on me than many photos that come from this so-called engaging and highly ethical street behavior. They often come up with unique perspectives that make me feel the nuance and excitement of the street even though I don't get the feeling they hang around to chat up folks they encounter or worry too much about fundraising or other people's sense of ethics.</p>

[Brad_]

<p>>>> I'd agree that a street photographer doesn't need to be social in order to make authentic images of the street, and not being social doesn't necessarily mean one is asocial.<br /><br />And I’d agree with that as well. Most photographs on the street, going back many decades, are made in that manner. The overwhelming majority of my street photos are candid, with no social interaction at all.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

I was thinking of the significance of the feeling of connection (or, importantly, disconnection) that is seen in the photo.

That's what's important to me as opposed to the personality of the photographer. I suggested Mario's work not in

consideration of its candidness or lack thereof but in consideration of the connectedness to the street it so often palpably

(and passionately) shows. I mention disconnectedness because an intentional showing of alienation can also at times be

significant.

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Fred, Phil with respect neither of you are street photographers. If you think you are show us...Fred took a photo of someone a thousand miles away and now he is a expert on street photography. Hello world.</p>

<p>Just BS about a genre of photography neither of you practice.... but you are full of wind about. And then you make bitchy comments about one of the most talented photographer on PN...Brad Evans. Most of us would agree about that talent...actual "real deal" street photographers. Not the bitchy no nothings, never done anything. never will but can talk a good story to the simple minded.</p>

<p>Grow up... it is not all verbal diarrhea speak some sense.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Bruce is a money making machine. The end. I would suspect that others who would think otherwise... he would look upon with amusement.</p>

<p>The circus has come to town and we all love a circus.</p>

<p> </p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>." It has much less to do with all the "do's and don'ts".</p>

<p>You are correct.</p>

<p>The don'ts are about anti social behavior.....sticking a cam and flash in someone's face. Then they complain to the authorities. Guess what will their response will be? Hello world. Phil has stopped holding hands and is now looking at butterflies. </p>

<p>Of course we should not live in fear of what might happen. Hey, common sense will tell us what will happen...is this a challenging thought? Perhaps for some.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Anyway, Im all sort of bored with Bruce thing.... so time for a photo.. Seeing that I've done all this talk ...</p>

<p>I think I deserve to post a photo of a street thing for you sad lot...yes, a street photo.</p><div></div>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Really, taken in Mexico and it was really was stalking through the grass very near some tourists</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p> "I feel the need to prove anything to you in that regard."</p>

<p>Im sure you don't because you have nothing to show...surprise. Troll.</p>

<p>What exactly makes you the expert?""</p>

<p>Im not a Troll.</p>

<p> </p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Fred, I looked at the street images of the PN photographer you mentioned and they evoke a sense of place, time, memory""</p>

<p>Creepy or what.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Fred, tell him.....creepy thing.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>As I was climbing up the stairs I saw a man who was not there.</p>

<p>He was not there again today I wish that man woud go away.</p>

[Uhooru]

<p>Just saw this..</p>

<blockquote>

<p>I'd agree that a street photographer doesn't need to be social in order to make authentic images of the street, and not being social doesn't necessarily mean one is asocial.</p>

</blockquote>

<p><br /> Absolutely, I don't think anyone is asserting anything else. Allan, I like your pic.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Allan, I like your pic."</p>

<p>It was the guy with two little gals that pressed the big button.</p>

<p>Fred, Phil (unless you are a Troll...Hmm ,not so sure)...all in good hunour ... my troubled sense of humor. Please do not take any offence. Especially Fred whom Im especially fond of as a web friend. Warm slippers by an open fire, the patter of rain on a glass window....Fred, a click away in real world time.</p>

<p>Thanks Fred for being you.</p>

<p>And I will always be there to challenge you. God bless.</p>

 

[Spearhead]

<p>Great story on Gilden <a href="https://medium.com/vantage/taking-liberties-taking-shortcuts-and-taking-advantage-of-people-1d5f5bea4c55">here</a>.</p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p> "Allen, my interest in theorizing about a subject or critiquing it has nothing to do with my ability or lack thereof in practicing it nor do I feel the need to prove anything to you in that regard"</p>

<p>Well, I think its about the understanding of photography. our art, what it can reveal not just about the photograph but the person behind it. This is a web site about photography not about wordsmiths abilities...the photos tell the story not the words of a wordsmith. We are not authors, we are photographers, and the photographs have their own language.</p>

<p>Like any language it requires study and understanding.</p>

<p> </p>

[Allen Herbert]

<p>Excellent link Jeff.</p>

<p>But, I think, we all have a feeling when something is not just right.</p>

[Brad_]

Two whole days in "Appalachia" and he has something to reveal in his contextless photos. Just more of the same exploitation. Likely some will see this as a

"collaboration" as well.

[spanky]

<p>Interesting article Jeff, thanks. The author really hit the nail on the head when he described these photographs as being more about the photographer(s) then the people being photographed and their life story. One would think that they would create a spread such as the kind W. Eugene Smith used to do for Life magazine, one that described the hardships of living in one of the most impoverished areas of the country, particularly now that new regulations of put a lot of people who worked in the coal industry out of work. </p>

<p>On a side note several years ago I took pictures at the Southern CA Special Olympics Summer Games. When I came on board I looked at the pictures taken from events going back a few years and I knew I wanted to do something different . A dear friend of mine spent a number of years as a psychologist working with the mentally challenged and their families so over the course of a few lengthy lunch meet ups he told me what to expect and gave me overviews of some of his cases which to this day still haunt me. I have no doubt that what I learned from him made a huge difference in the way I approached this and the results I achieved. So what I'm basically saying is that it's important for photographers to research their chosen documentary projects, even if it is just for a weekend such as my involvement with the Special Olympics or this Vice project in Appalachia.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

Bruce Gilden would be rolling on the floor laughing at the suggestion these photos should have been taken with the

approach of Smith. This is the conservative sort of mindset that keeps everything the same and that discourages new

ways of doing things. It's why so much photography on the pages of PN is so predictable and expected.

 

I think Smith's work, while saying a lot about Smith, did say more about his subjects. But wanting this from Gilden is

missing the point and trying to get his photos to be what they are not. As I see them, Gilden's photos are about how the

viewers see the subjects and not so much about the subjects themselves. It's no wonder so many viewers want

something else. Viewers in many cases seem to be running from themselves. Ironically, his photos may be working.

 

It's really too bad Picasso didn't paint more like Da Vinci. Life would have been so much easier. LOL. And if you're

tempted to think this means I'm comparing Gilden's work with Picasso's, think again.

 

Many photographers do show more about themselves but many also do it unconsciously. I think Gilden probably knows

what he's doing. Lots of photographers fool themselves into thinking that because they've chatted up their subjects their

photos are somehow doing those subjects "justice" when all they're showing is a very distant and impersonal view despite

their thinking that photography is all about the inside-baseball life of the photographer.

 

Collaboration with a subject, at least in my experience, can take place within seconds of meeting that subject. I just have

to allow for him to reveal himself with that important gesture or expression. I just have to remain open to intimacy and to

the moment. If I were to put minimal time restraints on a collaboration such as more than 2 days, I'd be missing a whole

lot of opportunities. I'm often able much more immediately to set in motion situations where both the

subject and I are creating a photo together even in a very brief encounter. It's about looking, seeing, listening, and is like dancing with a new dance partner where you simply sense and intuit a rhythm together and almost instantaneously. Others will belabor it much more, often seeming to think the secret lies in their own personality or ethics.

[Norma Desmond]

And, Marc, I want to reiterate that I have no problem with genuine critiques of Gilden's work, though attacks on him

personally do try my patience. But I do think it's a step backward to ask him to be more like one of the prior greats. I'd

sooner ask him to develop his own rich and unique vision if I thought he were falling so short. I've always been

encouraged to do that by more experienced photographers who've taken an interest in my work. Never have they told me

to be more like one of the past greats and I've benefitted from the attitude that I have the potential to see the world anew

rather than like someone else already has.

[spanky]

<p> Obviously Fred you've completely missed my point. I didn't mean that Gilden should mimic the shooting style of Smith, I was meaning that to do such documentary work I think having Smiths mindset and passion can mean a world of difference. These pictures of Gildens show nothing about what life is like in Appalachia. He showed up for two days, looked around for people whose appearance would garner some shock value and that was it. What kind of talent does that take? Maybe this kind of shallow and simplistic approach was taken into consideration based on the readership of Vice Magazine. I might be wrong, but the one or two times I thumbed through a Vice magazine it seemed like it was mostly a fashion/pop culture mag aimed at late teens to mid 20's demographics. I also recall looking at a book put out by Vice that was made up of candid shots of people in the street where the writers wrote some quite unflattering things about the way the people in these photos were dressed. So maybe Gilden is just turning in work that that is suitable to the mindset of your average Vice reader. The bottom line is that I brought up Smith not to suggest that Gilden shoot like him but for photographers to see the extent of effort that goes into a well perceived and executed documentary project. I would think that if Gilden approached this from a different manner the resulting work would have more depth and impact but like Fred stated above that's just a conservative mindset that promotes sameness in photography and as we are all aware, Fred knows everything so there you have it. </p>

[Brad_]

<p>>>> Obviously Fred you've completely missed my point.</p>

<p>That's intentional and occurs frequently. It allows for the creation of straw men that can then be smacked down in a grand manner. As an aside, Marc's views were clear to me.</p>