Infra Red Filters

[gnashings]

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I don't know if this is the right place to ask, actually I suspect it is not - but as most of my web searching yielded results pertaining to digital imaging rather than photography, I figured a film specific forum would be best.<br>

My question is about IR filters. Not so much their technical specifications in terms of wave lengths etc. - I am good with that. <br>

Question is about quality. <br>

To put it simply, I have heard(read) the theory that there is no benefit from paying a lot for the high end manufacturers, other than perhaps durability, which in many cases (mine being one of them) is not much of a concern with a relatively seldom used filter. <br>

My natural reaction to that is - if its too good to be true... and also, you usually get what you pay for... But, I have seen this theory often enough to merit asking.<br>

<br />Has anyone had any experience with inexpensive IR filters? Any specific brands or sources?<br>

Or is this just a tall tale, suck it up, pay the money? A middle ground? Wrong forum, you moron?(if so, please kick my apologetic ass towards the correct one;))</p>

<p>Thanks in advance.</p>

 

[Jochen_S]

<p>"No", but I haven't shot enough to say "yes". (2 rolls with a 5x5 filter borrowed from the local university held by a rubber lens hood.)<br>

General thoughts: assuming your lenses aren't corrected for IR (the ones which are, are very rare!) your focusing will be a tad off anyhow & smothened out via DOF. The IR film I am recalling was on the grainy end of the rainbow, so it isn't calling for the sharpest imaginable high resolution lens anyhow (like fine grain pull processed ISO 25 material)<br>

If we are discussing inexpensive filters in general its usually about Skylight / UV lens protectors. Depending on their absence of quality they might reduce lens performance in a visible, not just measurable, way via inefficient coating / flare. -> use a lens hood. <br>

You might be able to see if a filter seems entirely bad: dirt / scratches on the surface / uneven surface.<br>

What you could really worry about: what kind of camera will you be using? - A SLR? If so, you 'll have to dismount the filter for every composition and remount it for the shot. make sure it comes either with a long lasting / undamaged thread or maybe even better as a system solution that doesn't demand screwing it on and off. <br>

Good luck with your infrared pictures! <br>

Warning: some lenses have IR reflective internal black paint and cause hotspots that way. - But that won't be your filter to blame.</p>

 

[User_6502147]

<p>Indeed, many lenses will have an annoying spot in the middle. That is more of an issue than the kind of IR filter you might be using. It would have helped some if you indicated which system you use. You can look up yourself which lenses perform well by using this reference: <strong>http://www.naturfotograf.com/lens</strong><br>

<strong> </strong><br>

<strong><br /></strong>I've used 24mm + R72 (Hoya) and the photos came out somewhat civil. Recently I tried again with several lenses that I own, and all showed that funky white circle in the middle.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>Les</p>

[gnashings]

<p>Jochen,<br>

<br />Thanks for the input - all the lenses I can think of that would be used in this have an IR focus correction mark, and when I have shot IR in the past I have either done so with a r25 or r29 filter (can yield very "IR-sh" results contrary to popular opinion, but only in very bright sunlight in my experience, you gotta nail the exposure and developing), or done the on again off again thing - or used a rangefinder(or a TLR now that I think about it, was a pain holding the filter since it was 55mm and the camera used tiny little bayonet filters). <br>

I find in 35mm grain is a part of the aesthetic with HIE, surprisingly tame with some of the anti halation backed films and faux IR like SFX.<br>

Alas, the miniature format is the least of my concerns - I mainly medium format and 4x5 - so grain will not be an issue.<br>

I have shot portraits with HIE and was very pleased with the interesting results - focus as per usual, then take the camera away from eye move to the IR mark, recompose...), so needless to say, its a dance I am familiar with. But I digress.<br>

<br />But, I have been wanting to use my RB67 and my largest filter is 55mm. I am slowly assembling a collection of 77mm filters (also nice that it fits my Nikon WA zoom - bonus for the Nikons). <br>

No skimping on polarizers or HD filters for obvious reasons. Colour filters for b&w are not all that expensive and as long as they're coated and from any reputable maker I find them to be more less on par - even so I do go a little out of my way to avoid flair whenever I have a filter in there. But IR filters, they get pricey at that size and they are hardly a go to application for me - a few (as in single digits) rolls per year tops. Hence my question - is it true what they say? Are the cheapies really good enough? <br>

Frankly, the multi coating on filters seems to be the biggest element setting high end ones apart from the riff raff - I am not sure those coatings do a heck of a lot for those wavelengths 700nm and up...<br>

Great point about the constant on and off - I have thought about the Lee/Cokin route - a little clunky but I guess for this application its not like I will be chasing sports action (although it would look awesome now that I think about it...). Perhaps that is the way to go? Get a holder - good for nd grads, circumvents the whole on again off again? Or at least make sure its a brass mount.<br>

Optically though - any experiences? Has anyone seen a visible difference? Are they spotty (the cheap filters that is) in terms of their promised cut offs?<br>

Just brain storming here - thanks for the suggestions!</p>

<p> </p>

[gnashings]

<p>Leszku,<br /> I have not noticed that in the past - mainly using Canon FD lenses, a yashica mat, and canonet rf's. <br /> The glass I will be using will mostly be those FD's, various Mamiya lenses (RB mount, C lenses) and some Nikon zooms. The site you listed looks most intriguing! Thank you for providing it! Always good to get more info.<br>

I will break out he loupe and the old negatives check for weird aberrations - will see if I spot it anywhere.<br /> Thank you again.<br>

(edited because I am long wided and forgetful - bad combination)</p>

[User_6502147]

<p>Peter, if these lenses don't give you the "center circle" grief, then you could be set (lucky you).</p>

<p>I should add that there is a nuance in these IR filters. I've noticed that the higher quality type like B+W or Heliopan, the IR are not as defined as with Hoya. It's likely the IR nm threshold is higher on those, while Hoya is close to 700nm. </p>

<p>Anyway, as far as quality is concerned, I wouldn't go lower (unless you wish to experiment) than Hoya. Some of these cheapos will creep you out....leaving all sorts of weird color residue. Not to mention the obvious: it's difficult to justify installing inferior filter in the front of quality optic.</p>

<p>Les</p>

[gnashings]

<p>There in lies "the rub" - so far, so good but I have not tried the RB or the AF nikons yet - I suppose we shall see. This would be strictly film, strictly b&w also, I am not sure if that is a factor.<br>

And I absolutely agree with the sentiment of not sticking a crappy coaster of a filter in front of a good lens - but, that's the rumour I am trying to either confirm or dispel - apparently little or no difference is noticeable with these IR filters... something I find hard to believe. My initial inclination is to do exactly like you say, I am quite frankly being cheap in considering something that will get comparatively little use. Also, I was playing around with getting a few with various cut offs - so that I could take advantage of the "longer" films like HIE, yet have something better suited to films that don't "see" quite as far. I think given my experience with just red filters (not even IR, simply r25/29)I may be over-thinking this a bit and should just get a r72 hoya and call it a day. That way I would have one that I know will work and give the desired results in most situations - and if I want to experiment with some of the other more hard core IR filters I can at a later date.<br>

Thanks again for the enjoyable and helpful conversation:)</p>

 

[glen_h]

<p>There are IR filters in the usual size from China for about $7 (55mm) to $10 (72mm) including shipping on eBay. Some mailed from China, others from US sellers that likely imported them from China.</p>

<p>I have one roll of HIE, and otherwise wanted to try it with a DSLR. Also, filter step-up rings are available even cheaper, so one filter will work with many lenses. </p>

<p>The one I bought seemed fine to me. I bought it for playing around, not needing super quality. I suppose it isn't multicoated, but plenty good enough for what I wanted to do with it.</p>

[Jochen_S]

<p>Although I resold my Seagul TLR because its lens lacked 2 grades of contrast compared to my chrome C Sekor shot along on same film soaked in the same tank, I'll hit the China route for IR filters too, once my M8 gets back from repair. My most used BW filters are from the 50s. Many others origin from bargain bins, Eastern Europe and similar scary places. Its amazing what inferior optical gear can do.</p>

[gnashings]

<p>Glen, Jochen - thank you for weighing in - this is basically the kind of sentiment I was referring to initially, and I have seen people who's opinions I respect, express them as such. Oh well... choices:) I guess its what they call a "1st world problem" :)</p>

[glen_h]

<p>First world problem. I can buy an IR720 filter for about the price of dinner at McDonalds.</p>

<p>It is for play, not for work, so keeping the price low is important. For work, I might buy an expensive one.</p>

<p>It seems to work well on the D70s. I had thought that the internal IR block would stop it, but it does work. (Specifically, handheld exposure times.)</p>

<p>I haven't done anything serious with it.</p>

[gnashings]

<p>This wouldn't be work for me either, but I do go on about my cameras and lenses lol I am looking at the prices of some of these Chinese filters and I am almost inclined to think its worth a risk to just try it.</p>

[Mike Gammill]

Never had the hot spot issue except when using a Rebel XT digital and the kit 18-55. The Hoya IR720 I have works well with Kodak and Rollei Infrared films. I have a much deeper infrared Lee filter (polyester) that I haven't tried with film yet.