Your thoughts about manual focus lenses on digital bodies..is it a good idea?

[ShunCheung]

<p>To Rick the OP and everybody else, we have discussed a number of manual-focus techniques here. It really doesn't matter whether any particular technique works for someone else or not. Instead, try as many out as you can; find out what works for you. Something may well be a no go for 99.9% of the people, but as long as it works for you, that is all that matters.</p>

[Ed_Ingold]

<p>Phase detector focusing works just as well with manual lenses as autofocus lenses, provided the effective aperture is at least f/5.6. In a Nikon DSLR, there is a dot between two arrows (triangles) in the lower left margin of the finder. The arrows indicate the deviation and the dot is "perfect" focus, referred to the selected focusing marker.</p>

<p>Autofocus cameras tend to have a screen which is too transparent to establish a visual focusing plane. This makes the screen much brighter, but makes it hard to focus because you see through the glass to a virtual image. The trick is to focus your eye on grid or other markings on the screen, and focus the lens to the sharpest point. The technique is to focus past the sharpest image, then back up to that point. This is a problem with even older Hasselblads, which are strictly manual.</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>I think manual focus works great on dSLRs - if you have a focusing screen suitable for it.<br /> For slow work you can get by with the standard screen and the focus confirmation dot or using liveview.</p>

<p>For fast work, like anything moving, you need a real focusing screen. I've shot entire weddings like that using nothing but manual focus lenses on dslrs. But it requires practice because your success in fast moving scenarios depends on skill. Coming from the world of AF I had to practice a quite a bit to become proficient. Focusing must be handled by muscle memory as there is no time to think which way to turn or how much when tracking a moving subject.<br>

I would also focus bracket a little when I knew focus was a little off and sometimes shoot of a few frames extra just in case.</p>

<p>What I like about it is that you never have to move any focus points and for instance when using wide lenses you can focus on the ground glass so no need to focus and recompose. Sometime I would just watch the scene without the camera to my eye, having the focus already dialed in by distance, and just bring it up and bang, firing it off immediately with no lag. Similar to that crazy street photographer from New York, Bruce something. Stuff like that is hard with AF as you really need to use the viewfinder for everything since the lenses have abysmal distance scales.</p>

<p>PS. I second Andy L's suggestion above. Get a Nikkor 50mm f1.4 Ai or similar lens to play with and see what you think.<br /> Using manual focus on a AF lens is just plain hard and frankly off-putting.</p>

<p> </p>

[dan_brown4]

A little depth of field does wonders for manual focusing.

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Going back to the chipped lenses thing; I think it's worth expanding on the subject a bit here.</p>

<p>'Dandelion' chips aren't that pricey, and on most lenses they're relatively easy to fit. What the chip gives you, apart from instant lens recognition by the camera and body control of the aperture, is the ability to 'trap focus'. This means you can set the lens to a fixed distance, and when the subject enters the selected AF area and comes into focus, the shutter fires. Not entirely automatically, I must add, but when you've got your finger all the way down on the release.</p>

<p>This works really well, and the chip can also be programmed to have some focus fine-tune and therefore adjust the confirmation dot's point of light-up.</p>

<p>So Dandelion chipping would appear to address most of the issues raised here WRT the confirmation dot and speed of focus. But please don't all rush at once to order them - I want to get my order in for a few more first!</p>

<p>Incidentally, I've found that the confirmation dot works in low light conditions that make it almost impossible to focus by eye. In the dark corners of a room lit by one 40watt table lamp for example. There's no way that I could see to focus accurately, even if I'd had a horrible split-image blob in the centre of the screen - yet the confirmation dot was still doing its thing and getting me good focus in near total darkness.</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>The AF and focus confirmation dot has a deadband, an area where it considers the lens in focus. This is a must or the lens would hunt forever.</p>

<p>Different people have different vision. I have not owned a dSLR where I have not replaced the stock screen with a split screen and it's easy to see that the range where the dot confirms good focus is slightly larger than the range where the split image confirms focus. More so on some lenses than others. I have about 15 manual focus Nikkors, mostly Ai for their increased focus ring travel, ranging from 20 to 300mm.</p>

<p>The matte area on the stock screen show in focus over a much larger area than the focus dot or a proper manual focus screen. Using just that you have to find both ends where the image is just out of focus and then turn the focus ring so you're just in middle.</p>

<p>It also pretty easy to find a scenario where AF wont work. When AF doesn't work then the confirmation dot doesn't work.</p>

<p>Just go out after dark and let your eyes adjust. You'll find plenty of light to see in where the AF is just dead (flashing dot). You can usually focus these shots on the focusing screen. If your shooting static subject liveview on cameras with good liveview implementation also works surprisingly well.</p>

<p>Vision is different and also as we get older night vision deteriorates so it's likely that some people just can't see what others can. So everyone can use what works for them. Personally I want all options and focus by AF, manually using the one of many options depending on the situation: split screen, microprism area, matte area, focus dot, live view, distance scale, trial and error by chimping, focus bracketing by focus ring or distance.</p>

<p> </p>

[Andrew Garrard]

<p>As RJ says, trap focus is nice. (One thing that I miss from my D700 that I'm annoyed got disabled for no apparent reason on the D800.) Another advantage to dandelion chipping a manual focus lens is that the AF sensor accuracy is different if the camera thinks it's in manual focus mode compared with autofocus - focus is "correct" in a narrower band during autofocus. This is regurgitating <a href="

report</a> (read the notes), I've yet to confirm, but I hope this helps... If you have an autofocus lens, you will get better focus accuracy by having the lens in "focus with AF-On only" and overriding the focus ring than if you put the camera/lens into manual focus. On a genuinely manual lens you're stuck with low accuracy <i>unless</i> you chip it, at which point the camera treats it like an autofocus lens. Trap focus is even better: that only works when the camera <i>thinks</i> it's trying to autofocus the lens, which means you can only use it on a lens with "broken" autofocus (nothing moves when the camera tries to autofocus) - i.e. a chipped manual lens.<br />

<br />

I've always relied on the AF indicator for my manual focus lenses. My 85mm f/1.4 Samyang, which admittedly is effectively AI-P, seems pretty accurate. Certainly my 135 f/2.8 AI-S copes. YMMV, especially with shorter and faster lenses. Live view is the one true guarantee.</p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>"You'll find plenty of light to see in where the AF is just dead (flashing dot)." - Really Pete? Not my experience, that's to be sure. And where are you finding these <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51149976">spoilt - sorry - split image screens </a>to replace the standard one on a D800 for example.</p>

[pete_s.]

<p>Well Joe, I just have to open the door and step outside. Plenty of light to walk the dog, not enough for AF to work :-)</p>

<p>You know your EVs I assume? Nikon says AF sensors work down to EV -1 to EV -2 depending on camera and that's of course on a contrasty subject with a 50mm f1.4. If you try to focus on something darker in an overall lighter environment the effect will be the same.</p>

<p>I prefer split image screens for general use but a real matte screen for manual focus use would work equally well focusing on the matte area. These screens are much better for manual focus than the ones that are stock on AF cameras.</p>

<p>You can find split image screens on ebay that fit D800/D600 but I've used them and don't recommend them. focusingscreen.com have <a href="http://www.focusingscreen.com/index.php?cPath=22_130">screens for the D800/D600/D610 </a>(they are the same size). They adapt focusing screen from other cameras to fit a number of dSLRS. I've done my own adaptation and use a Canon EC-B right now. I have Nikon K3 screens in my AF film cameras.</p>

<p> </p>

[rodeo_joe1]

<p>Andrew, in what way is focus trap disabled on your D800? I just (double and triple) checked on mine with my Dandelion converted 75-150mm series E and it works fine. The camera body has to be set to AF-S, and then all I need to do is hold the shutter release down and rotate the focus collar of the lens. When the subject comes into focus the shutter trips. Or alternatively I can wait for a moving subject to enter sharp focus with my finger down on the release.</p>

<p>Everything 'dandelion' works as it should on the D800 as far as I can tell. The only thing that's a bit odd is that when the camera's set to AF, the confirmation dot locks on when focus has been detected, but doesn't go off again even when the subject has clearly gone out of focus. The dot only resets when pressure is taken off the shutter button. With the camera set to MF the dot works normally, but of course then there's no focus trap ability.</p>

<p>Pete, -2EV (at 100 ISO) is an exposure of <strong>8 seconds </strong>at <strong>f/1.4 </strong>and if we stick an f/2.8 zoom on the camera that shutter time increases to 32 seconds. Now if you can see well enough to focus a DSLR <em>accurately</em> in that level of gloom by eye alone, then please let me know what sort of carrots you're eating and in what quantity. I'm not that fond of carrots myself, and all I can say is that my D800's AF system beats my eyesight hands down in that sort of near-darkness. Full moonlight I can cope with, but -2EV is quite a bit darker than that.</p>

<p>"..that's of course on a contrasty subject with a 50mm f1.4." - Again that's not my experience. I can point the camera's AF spot at a dark part of a dimly lit, low contrast subject with an f/2.8 lens on the camera and have it snap into focus before my eye has even adjusted to the lighting conditions.</p>

[dan_south]

This discussion seems to be focused (no pun intended) on manual focus using the viewfinder. In past generations of cameras, not only

were special focusing screens available, but some cameras could attach optional magnifying viewfinders. Manual focusing without

magnification is subject to some degree of error.

 

Today's DSLRs offer magnification in live view. This helps for critical focus on stationary objects. It's not practical for action, but that's

where predictive autofocus really shines.

 

The D800 allows for highly accurate autofocus in live view, as well. However, it's slower that the normal phase detection AF, so you'll

want to confine its use to stationary subjects. Contrast detection autofocus in live view is the most accurate autofocus available on the

D800. It doesn't require micro fine tuning. It works at all focal lengths of a zoom lens (which are tough to fine tune accurately through the

entire range). You can focus anywhere in the frame, not just at predetermined AF points.

 

For high precision focus, manual or auto, live view is hard to beat.

[pictures_on_a_web_site]

<p>I recently picked up a Nikon 28m f2 AI-S manual lens to use on my D700 body. Works in Aperture & Manual settings and honestly best as a close up lens. I have set the Non CPU Data to fit this lens. It will focus well (as I said) close up. Distance shots leave something to be desired. The focus light appears to be accurate and the colors & contrast, sharpness I get close is excellent. I have used other manual lenses with various results. My feeling is I use these lenses because they are much lighter than the pro zoom lenses. Otherwise I can't really see a reson to use them.</p><div></div>

[Landrum Kelly]

<blockquote>

<p>As I say,<br /> "this is my AF lens and this is my stop-down son-of-a gun, my AF is for business and the stop-down for fun" ---JDM von Weinberg</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>Shades of <em>Full Metal Jacket</em>. . .</p>

<p>It's about fun, and that's all it has to be about. I wouldn't want to be doing it commercially as a routine thing, although some could make it work.</p>

<p>--Lannie</p>

[ArthurRichardson]

<p>I have used the 85mm 1.4 AIS and 135mm 2.8 AI on my D700 with very pleasing results. If you're into pixel peeping, than the D800 might give somewhat of a challenge, but there are still some little old gems out there to be discovered!!!</p>

[enmerkar_zedek]

<p>Rick,<br>

I have a large collection of MF lenses and some nice AF lenses. I personally prefer to shoot MF on my D800. The only exception is if I am moving about and the subject is also moving about like in events. I would not bring an MF lens to an event unless my camera has a prism screen installed. You are likely to miss out on shots, especially when it gets dark.<br>

If you are doing landscape and focusing to infinity and or needing basic trim to get sharpness then an MF is excellent option.<br>

If you are shooting in studio/portrait/tripod then an MF would work as well.</p>

<p>I manually focus in one of two ways. The first is to open the lens wide, focus, then change aperture again to desired.<br>

The Livescreen works fine in D7000, but in D800 there is too much noise to make it worth the effort.<br>

The easiest way to do it is to tether it to a laptop / pc and set it up on tripod. It will take a few shots, especially if its dark, to get desired sharpness. I often find if I have to refocus it takes maybe 1-2 shots before I get it super sharp. It is a bit more of a hassle then AF, BUT, it can also be fun AND you get access to a variety of lenses from many parts of the world. </p>

<p>I done a test recently on MF forum using 3 MF lens and one AF lens. <br>

It will give you an idea on how different lenses can deliver different results.<br>

<a href="http://forum.mflenses.com/leica-vs-tamron-vs-nikon-vs-mepro-vs-toyo-portrait-pic-test-t63458.html">http://forum.mflenses.com/leica-vs-tamron-vs-nikon-vs-mepro-vs-toyo-portrait-pic-test-t63458.html</a></p>

<p> </p>

[rick_chen]

<p>Hello everyone, I just received my first MF lens and will be playing around with it using the above commented focusing techniques over the holidays....<br>

I did found out 1 thing..that you can actually "AF fine tune" the green focus confirmation dot. I added the lens to the non-CPU lens data manually in the camera, then setup a target and the camera both on tripod, with a 25xFL distance. I repeatedly took a series of pictures when the green dot first light up and go through the series of images. Of course, human error is involved because i am technically manual focusing the lens. But I did found the images constantly back focus on the D4 and constantly front focus like crazy on the D800E. So I "af fine tune" them and now the images are closer to being accurately focused.<br>

However, this is only a small aid to the MF, because there is still a lot of play in the duration of the green dot lighting up. The lens itself is very precise and free from play in the focus ring. I took images when the light first light up, in the middle, and then finally just before the green dot disappears. The focus point travelled as much as 10" on the target! So I can see the margin of error of the green dot lighting up will easily exceed the range of "af fine tuning"....so for now I am training myself to press the shutter when I first see the green dot show up, and then "af fine tune" based on that to help in instances when my eyes cant see too well, either in dark situations or when my eyes are constantly tearing from MF.....<br>

does anyone know if the center focus point (black LED box) in d800 can be turned off? i am a bit concerned that the box is going to interfere with my MF when the focusing screen do arrive, since the split image area is right in the middle of the frame overlapping with the black box. Not so much with the D4 because the red box can be adjusted to be very faint-looking</p>

[thierry_tramoni]

<p>Hi, I'm from Corsica (France) and this is my first message here.<br>

I own several AI/AIS lenses : 20mm/f3.5 AIS; 24mm/f2.8 AI; PC28 f/4 (Pre-AI modified); 35mm f/2.8 AI; 50mm f/1.4 AI; 105mm f/2.5 AI, 200mm f/4 AI; 300mm f/4.5 EDIF AIS; 43-86mm f/3.5 AI; 80-200mm f/4.5.<br>

I have been using them successfully on my digital cameras (D800/D700) for years with the help of a 1.2x magnifier (dk17 M). I don't find the digital telemeter (the green dot) fast enough and the magnifier is the best trick I have found with no need to change the focusing screen.<br>

Hope it helps - sorry for my English.</p>

 

<h3 > </h3>

[kevin_beretta]

This is an old thread and it may have been replaced .... I just got a new Df and am going to play with the AF Fine tune for my f2 40 mm Voigtlander and f1.4 50 mm Zeiss. Both are chipped lenses and I think with AF Fine tune I can set them where the green dot just flickers (either left of right). On the Df the focus travel of the Zeiss is 5 mm or so, during which the green dot stays lit. On the D850 it is far more crisp and the travel minimal. The Df is easier to focus versus the D850 (nearly impossible) by sight alone. Still, if I can get the green dot and one of the arrows to flicker that might be more useful.

[mike_halliwell]

I'd be more inclined to try focus peaking.

 

No wait.....:D

[rodeo_joe1]

Both are chipped lenses and I think with AF Fine tune I can set them where the green dot just flickers (either left of right).

I've said it before, but I think it would be far better if Nikon took more care to align the AF sensor (stuck down a well in the bottom of the dark-chamber) with the actual image sensor. Rather than expect the end-user to apply a time-consuming and inaccurate software fudge on Nikon's behalf!:mad:

 

Depth-of-field and depth-of-focus are not the same thing!

[kevin_beretta]

I think I figured out a nice way around this. I'm using Capture One and my 4K TV to basically create the world's most expensive webcam so I can see on a 65 inch screen how in focus my wiggling on the lens is. Once there, I will use AF fine tune to set the green dot to flicker with the right arrow. That way, the travel on the focus ring won't be an issue. 3 manual lenses and 2 cameras ... I have my work cut out for today on a snow-storm day in Vancouver.

[kevin_beretta]

Since I had things set up, I decided to run all my lenses through a fine tune process again. A few observations:

- My 105 2.8 micro needed no adjustment on either the D850 or the Df. An oldie but a goodie, that lens is so sharp it hurts.

- The 35 mm 1.8G Nikkor lens was all over the map. It didn't keep a consistent readout, either on the D850 or the Df. I think in the end it worked OK at +7 on the D850

- I set all manual lenses to -10 and adjusted from there so that the right arrow and the green dot would flicker on focus. Setting that was the easiest part of the whole day, to my surprise. Makes focusing the manual lenses a snap.

- I could not get the Auto-fine tune to work on the D850 for the AF-S lenses despite following the manual step by step.

- Changing the fine-tune values and clicking "Ok" does not actually store the new value. You need to arrow-left back to the main menu, hit the AF-on button and then proceed before the new value "stick", even with the manual lenses. This trial and error process took up an hour or two of frustration...

- The Zeiss Milvus 50 1.4 is really a whole lot sharper and nicer to work with than any of the Nikkor glass.

- I finally am getting the shots I always wanted out of the 85 1.4 Nikkor; for some reason my old fine-tune on the D850 was way off.

- One of my brand new EN-EL4a batteries was defective, RMA requested from B&H.

- The Df AF system is not quite as good as the D850, which is no surprise, but the difference was larger than I expected.

- It takes a long time to make sure everything is level, square and at right angles...

[BeBu Lamar]

I'd be more inclined to try focus peaking.

 

No wait.....:D

 

I simply use the focusing screen. I don't see reason to use a DSLR if I don't use the focusing screen.

[petrochemist]

Things have changed dramatically since this thread was started back in 2013.

I did use manual focus lenses back then mainly because I had them from years previously & that was all I could afford. I got some good results, and had a fair bit of fun trying,

 

Now more than half my interchangeable lens cameras have the facility to magnify the image in the viewfinder for more accurate focus, others have focus peaking to speed up manual focusing, The cameras also have much shorter flange distances so that a much greater range of lenses can be used. Manual lenses are easier than ever.

 

Using manual lenses I can get many lenses with specifications I couldn't afford in AF versions, like my 50mm/1.2, full frame 14mm/2.8, APSC 10mm/2.8 let alone tilt/shift lenses... The manual route also allows experiments with optics not designed for cameras, such as telescopes & microscopes...

 

On top of all this many modern lenses are designed to get rid of all aberrations, which can leave a clinical image. Using old manual lenses can add character which in the right pace can significantly improves the image.

 

For some subject types things change too rapidly for manual to consistently get the shot and I'm less inclined to play with them when it's as bitterly cold outside as it is at the moment, but I can't see things ever getting to the point when I don't use them at all.

[robert_bouknight1]

I was not successful at achieving precise manual focus reliably (every time) using the viewfinder screen or focus confirm system with a D600 or D810. It seems like I did a little better with a D3s viewfinder. I definitely get better manual focus consistency with mirrorless at 100% zoom through the viewfinder. For the record, I do not always get perfect results using DSLR AF, either. AF fine tune does help get mostly good AF results, though. I did notice less need for AF fine tune required when I moved from a D800 to D810.

 

Kevin B might be on to something, it never occurred to me to try to tune the AF system for manual focus.

 

Although I have and enjoy using a number of manual focus lenses, AF continuous has a significant advantage for the people photography I enjoy. Even when I achieve perfect focus with a manual lens, subsequent subject to camera motion often loses that perfect focus.

 

I am enjoying the eye continuous AF on my Z cameras, I believe this technology does improve AF in focus keeper rate where applicable. For less critical focusing situations, the peaking or simply the actual image in the mirrorless finder usually gives adequate results quickly.