Is photonet falling behind? [Mirrorless Cameras]

[photo5]

<p>Leslie, are you addressing PN as Shun, Josh, and other staff? To say they aren't friendly towards mirrorless cameras is a pretty strange accusation. I think Bob hit it on the head when he said that PN reviews as much gear as is loaned to them. I think the younger generation will flock to mirrorless cameras, but us old "over 40" folks will stick with SLRs as that is what we grew up with. I like seeing the actual scene when I am composing, not an electronic interpretation of one. My eye has a far wider range of being able to see light and shadow than any electronic viewfinder or LCD screen. So as long as I can see through a lens vs. through a digitized version of reality, I'll stick with my digital SLR, mirror slap and all. I'm also not interested in stepping down to another crop-sensor camera system. If and when Nikon releases an FX mirrorless camera, that has the ability to function with manual focus Nikon lenses (fat chance, I know) I'll sit up and take notice.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Yeah, and those camera's prices are just as expensive as my 2006 Pentax K100D DSLR that I've accumulated several lenses for and am still using. </p>

<p>But then I'm not the demographic that likes to buy new equipment anyway. I'm sure I'm missing out on features that would make image capture more efficient and easy while offering better image quality. I just don't have the time and resources to buy and learn to utilize all their potential. </p>

<p>I'm still trying to decipher the anachronisms MILC and EVIL. What does that tell you? </p>

[leslie_cheung]

<p>I was/am addressing the PN general community...not Bob, Shun or Josh. FWIW, actually people like you, Dave, that talks down on mirrorless...</p>

<blockquote>

 

 

<p ><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=478782">Dave Lee</a> <a href="../member-status-icons"><img title="Subscriber" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/sub10.gif" alt="" /><img title="Frequent poster" src="../v3graphics/member-status-icons/1roll.gif" alt="" /></a>, Dec 13, 2011; 12:54 p.m.</p>

 

<p>Holger, keep your D300. Take this from a guy who sold his, regretted it, and then bought another one later on. Play with the NEX camera, enjoy it, but realize the D300 is a Nikon, so it's built to last. I don't think the same could be said of the NEX.</p>

 

 

 

<p > </p>

 

 

</blockquote>

[JDMvW]

<p>What's the difference between MILC and MILF? Anything?</p>

[leslie_cheung]

<p>C is a camera, F is...uhh, a female, JDM:)</p>

[KenPapai]

<p><strong><em>MILC & EVIL?</em></strong></p>

<p>Maybe I am the only regular here who has only seen these acro's recently and don't actually know what they stand for -- does it matter?</p>

<p>And I see I am not the only with with very few clues. People toss around MILC and EVIL (without an antecedent) as if... of course! MILC & EVIL... you know. Who cares?</p>

[leslie_cheung]

<p>Furthermore...</p>

<p>How many times have you, Shun, Dave, Matt, Bob or Josh have heard here on PN...along the line of, say...oh, I can't use camera X, it doesn't have OVF? Or if it only had a OVF or eye level VF...EVF just doesn't do it for me? EVF isn't there quite yet...Sony NEX?...not enough dials, knobs...the UI sucks...</p>

<p>People are, of course, entitled to their own opinion but many of these very commenters are from people that never played around with one, let alone own one. And I'm sure there are other reasons. If yall like, I'm sure yall can dig them up in the archives...</p>

<p>Sad but true...PN (the community as a whole) isn't very friendly (but *not hostile*) toward mirrorless, I'm just the messenger...Don't worry, it'll take time...I'm sure many will find the Nex 7 a game changer as was the X100.</p>

<p> </p>

[leslie_cheung]

<p>One last thing...</p>

<p>I do appreciate and read Bob's technical, objective (lens) review very much. I also enjoy reading Josh's Pens preview (or was it a reviews). And Shun has been doing an excellent job at the N forum even tho we don't see eye to eye at times. The PN mods, staffs (J. Spirer, Lex and others) are all fair and wonderful... that's why I always find myself coming back here. But PN isn't big on miroorless to say the least. Have a good night!</p>

[waltflanagan]

<blockquote>

<p>How many times have you, Shun, Dave, Matt, Bob or Josh have heard here on PN...along the line of, say...oh, I can't use camera X, it doesn't have OVF? Or if it only had a OVF or eye level VF...EVF just doesn't do it for me? EVF isn't there quite yet...Sony NEX?...not enough dials, knobs...the UI sucks...</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I owned the Sony NEX C3 for 3 weeks. My opinion:</p>

<p>Positives<br>

1. Image quality and high ISO noise was very good<br>

2. Fits in a large pocket when using the 24mm pancake lens<br>

3. Ability to mount virtually any lens with adapters including my 4 Leica rangefinder lenses<br>

4. Focus peaking for manual focus was cool<br>

5. 920k dot rear LCD looked great<br>

6. Ability to customize 2 buttons, jog dial, and the jog dial pushed up/down/left/right is far better than any of my Nikon DSLRs.</p>

<p>Negatives<br>

1. Poor grip. My hands are large and it gave me hand cramps after a while<br>

2. Shutter seemed much louder and "clackier" than any of my DSLRs<br>

3. 24mm f2.8 lens was acceptable but not super sharp<br>

4. Rear LCD composition only. My fault as I could/should have spent more for the 5N+EVF or 7.<br>

5. About 1 second delay before it was ready for the next shot unlike any DSLR I have<br>

6. Native lens selection is poor compared to a DSLR or Micro 4/3</p>

<p>I wanted something rangefinder-esque and wanted to use my Leica lenses. Even though focus peaking was cool I found I didn't enjoy manual focus on a rear LCD. The loud shutter was also the exact opposite of a Leica cloth shutter sound. Perhaps I should have waited and spent more for a 5N or 7.</p>

 

[MichaelChang]

<p>Maybe there just isn't enough owners on pnet to create the critical mass necessary to have lively discussions. One can only (mostly) sit on the sidelines and read if one is not an owner. </p>

<p>It's not just new cameras, but any topic where there are few users or little interest. </p>

[tholte]

<p>"But PN isn't big on miroorless to say the least." Thank goodness!</p>

[photo5]

<p>Leslie, I just don't think the Sony NEX is a replacement for a DSLR. It can compliment it, the image quality does look very good, but it doesn't replace it for reasons already mentioned in this thread. If you're not in a hurry and can deal with the shortcomings of the NEX, go right ahead and use it. But if you need professional quality hardware to take a lot of photos in a short period of time, a DSLR (from whichever company you like) is still going to be the best choice.<br>

I have a Nikon P7000, that doesn't shoot nearly as high quality photos as the NEX system due to a much smaller sensor, but I still enjoy it when I'm out to dinner with friends, or walking around and just want to casually shoot photos. But it can't ever complete with an NEX or 4/3rd system camera as it has a much smaller sensor, etc. But I don't go around saying people talk down to P7000 type cameras here on PN either. So I guess I still don't understand your point.<br>

Everyone has different opinions on what kind of camera works for them, and that's great. The NEX and 4/3rd cameras have a strong following, just now on PN at the moment.</p>

[colin carron]

<p>I have seen a few discussions about mirrorless cameras here on PN so they do feature. I find them an interesting development and am always looking for the perfect camera. But I only have a limited amount of cash to spend so each decision takes a while. I already have a DSLR and a P&S which I hope will last me a few years. So it will take me some time or a dreadful accident before I am looking for an alternative system. At the moment therefore I am an interested reader about mirrorless cameras but have no hands on experience to be able to contribute to a discussion.</p>

[john_tran14]

<p>So maybe it is true that very few PN members own or use the mirrorless or maybe this is not true. But either way each member should and (likely) did make his/her own choice.</p>

<p>If the members do not like the mirrorless, that means the mirrorless is not for the members and there is nothing right or wrong about that.</p>

<p>Maybe it is true that PN members are not "into" the mirrorless but that is our own choice</p>

<p>Maybe the mirrorless will be the cameras of the future and maybe not. Who knows the future?</p>

[luis_g]

<p>It boils down to mutual respect. Those who are into mirrorless, cell phone cams, P&S's etc. should be able to discuss their issues without the usual barrage of er....wisdom... about the superiority of DSLRs, which by now I think we all know about. </p>

<p>Maybe sometime soon we could get an EVIL forum. Just a thought.</p>

[zack_lau]

The strength of this forum is the hard earned wisdom earned through years of experience. Not surprisingly, folks are much more comfortable teaching others about older technologies that they are familiar with, than a new camera they just got themselves. It isn't just the newbies who have to deal with learning curves--it is often worse for the old timers who now have to deal with multiple ways of doing something similar.

[DickArnold]

My main purpose in posting this thread was to suggest that other sites have placed a great deal of emphasis upon emerging technoligies and rather than go to other sites for most of the information I needed to adapt to my NEX 5N I thought it would be good to find more info here. I did not intend to set up an argument about which technology is better but to advocate that we maybe do more here in PN. If I want to know something about Canon or Nikon all I have to do is ask on PN. After I retired from my aviation work I went to work as a local newspaper photographer.. We all used to bitch about how heavy our bags were at 30 pounds or so. Upon my retirement I also, by accident, formed a wedding business and being paranoid about redundancy I carried three big bags of gear to my weddings. By habit I still keep a heavy bag packed. It's where I store my gear. I have a tiny bag that weighs just over a pound packed with the 5N, batteries, tiny flash and cards that now goes with me wherever I go. When I do swimming the 5N takes a very small corner of my bag. This camera takes pictures almost equal to my 5D with L lenses at web sizes. It also prints well up to 13x19. Many of the pictures I take do not need one of my four L lenses. So Bob Atkins I take the little camera out and throw it under the car seat almost every day. I am doing a lot more random picture taking. The 5N with kit lens weighs about eighteen ounces and is a third the size with lens as my 5D. This is conducive to my carrying the camera with me. It is not better than my 5D but replaces it for part of my picture taking. What it does have that interests me is a number of new features that are in part due to being mirrorless but are also due to some very creative and new software design by Sony. I have already mentioned some of those. I do not know how these innovations will affect my photography but that's what I aim to find out over time (if I can ever figure the menus). Peaking level is very interesting. It throws up a colored outline against parts of the picture that are in focus. Fifty exposures combined into one for in camera panoramas is another. It really works but I had to figure how to pan with camera vertical in a horizontal pan so as not to get long narrow pictures. In camera HDR is another. The range is limited but it also works. It does face registration and picks out smiles. I haven't tried these yet. It does multiple exposures into one picture in low light to eliminate significant amounts of noise. It does raw. I have not done all this stuff yet. This same software is in the Sony pellicle A77 camera so my interest is more broad than just MILC. I think this has opened up a new line of design thinking that will get better and less expensive as time goes on. I believe anything is possible. I have a work background in aviation research that tells me this is true. You all know the military expression from AF days: lead, follow or get out of the way. There are a few trying to step into the leadership position in new innovation and at the moment I don't think the conventional leaders are ahead. I just think these changes are exciting.

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>My main purpose in posting this thread was to suggest that other sites have placed a great deal of emphasis upon emerging technoligies and rather than go to other sites for most of the information I needed to adapt to my NEX 5N I thought it would be good to find more info here.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Dick, the most important part of photo.net is the members. If people here are interested in discussing mirrorless cameras, there will be more discussion. If not, there won't be.</p>

<p>Just a few days ago, I asked Josh whether he could get me more mirrorless cameras to test and compare to the Nikon J1/V1. At least I am interested in learning more about the Sony NEX and Micro 4/3, perhaps not so much the Pentax Q. However, I am a serious photographer and so far, DSLRs meet my needs much better.</p>

[szrimaging]

<blockquote>

<p>However, I am a serious photographer and so far, DSLRs meet my needs much better.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I was saying that until I picked up an E-PM1 this year. It's funny, but in some situations, it is the go-to, and in others, it has to be the Nikon DSLR. Sadly, the tech for the mirrorless is still a little behind where it needs to be to replace DSLRs. I am, however, looking forward to it. Although not interested in it, the new Nikon 1 series seems to be a bit of an evolutionary step that will make the mirrorless segment more useful. That phase auto-focus is the number one thing limiting it's competitors in my book (followed shortly by glass).</p>

<p>That said, the glass is coming, it would seem, and I have seen a few patents for phase detection, so I would guess that is on it's way. I would say in another 2 to 3 years we may truly see a paradigm shift, as long as Nikon and Canon enter the field.</p>

<p>The one thing about cameras is they are a lot like motorcycles used to be in terms of marketing. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.</p>

[Brad_]

>>> However, I am a serious photographer and so far, DSLRs meet my needs much better.

 

I'm kind of in the same boat. A month or so ago I bought a Panasonic G3 (not GF3) and 20mm f/1.7

pancake lens. Seemed like it could be the ideal camera for my street portraiture.

 

While it was a nice camera, relatively compact, and with one of the better EVFs out there, in the end I returned it after a week or so of

use.

 

The image quality was (not surprisingly) a huge step down from my dSLR. But more important, it was not

nearly as flexible/fun/interesting as my iPhone 4 cellphone cam, which for now is what I'm using all the time.

 

For my needs, the G3 served no real purpose...

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>Regardless whether a NEX or PEN fulfills your needs or not (I stick to a DSLR too), it's good there is choice. The choice used to be: good quality, but large and relatively heavy, or small and light but a step down in quality with P&S. The potential of the market for these cameras is big enough for sure.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>If people here are interested in discussing mirrorless cameras, there will be more discussion. If not, there won't be.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>True, but what if users now do not start the discussion, because it's unclear where it fits? Same as the question that occured a few times whether the Fuji X100 fits in the rangefinder forum? Admit, it's hard to qualify properly, as you may end up with a gazillion different options and suboptions... but rather than the brand-forums now... DSLR forum / subforum per brand - EVIL / subforum per brand - Compacts / subforum per brand, and so on?</p>

[ShunCheung]

<blockquote>

<p>True, but what if users now do not start the discussion, because it's unclear where it fits?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Wouter, so far the Nikon J1, V1 threads are on the Nikon Forum. That seems to work ok at this time. Potentially we could have a mirrorless forum but then if traffic grows, there can be separate Sony NEX, Micro 4/3, Nikon 1, and Canon whatever forums.</p>

<p>For example, current on the Nikon Forum, we have this thread on the Nikon FT1 adapter for mounting Nikon SLR lenses onto Nikon 1 mirrorless: <a href="../nikon-camera-forum/00Zk8U">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00Zk8U</a></p>

<p>My interest is photography, not any particular brand of camera or type of camera. I happen to use Nikon SLRs since 1977 because they meet my needs. As equipment evoloves, I might own a Sony NEX some day. In particular, my wife shoots a lot of video so that it is important that it also works for her. E.g. a swivel screen is important for her; therefore, the Nikon V1 and J1 are out.</p>

[Wouter Willemse]

<p>Shun, I fully agree, I was just thinking out loud.</p>

[joshroot]

<p>Though I think placing Nikon MILC threads in the Nikon forum and Pentax forum and so on is a fine way to go, I'm not against the idea of some sort of a "large format compact" forum. But my two issues have always been:</p>

<p>1. Would there be enough traffic to sustain that sort of forum (a dead forum is worse than no forum at all, believe me). Despite this thread, there just aren't that many questions about these cameras. Though I do expect there will probably be</p>

<p>and</p>

<p>2. What would you call it in order to make sure that people knew what you were talking about? It doesn't help to have a "MILC forum" if people dont' know what that means.</p>

[parv]

Re: possible name, Josh, well, expand that MILC then, as in "Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera forum"?