CV 40mm Bokeh

[denton_hoyer]

<p>Hi folks,<br /> I like the sharpness of my CV 40mmf1.4 Classic, but I often get double image bokeh at full aperture. I'd like to pick up a 40-90mm lens which does NOT have this busy OOF. Check out particularly the area of the building just to above and to the left.<br /> Recommendations? CV or Leitz would be fine.<br /> For a larger images see <a href="../photo/12158311">here</a><br /> Denton<br>

(M3 with CV40 and Delta400/HC110)</p><div></div>

[larry h-l]

<p>Wide and fast with close focus is tough for most lenses. Stopping the C/V down to f2 will help somewhat.</p>

<p>If you really need the speed, many like the drawing properties of the C/V 35 f1.2, but it is a pretty large lens. Most 50mm lenses will be better than wides in the OOF areas.</p>

[Niels - NHSN]

<p>That's a very challenging background for any lens, and it will probably be difficult to find a modern corrected lens that will do better under these circumstances. As Larry mentions, OOF quality is not constant over the distance range or the aperture range of a given lens.<br>

A reasonable affordable suggestion could be a rigid or collapsible 50mm summicron of the 60's.</p>

[graham_line]

<p>If you're comfortable with 40mm, either the Leica Summicron-C 40 f/2 or the almost identical Minolta M-Rokkor 40/2 would probably have given a smoother out-of-focus rendition in that photo. Prices of those hovered around $250-$300 for a long time -- haven't looked lately.</p>

[steve_barrett]

<p>It's a great photo!<br>

What was he shooting with the camera? It appears to have a Polaroid back.</p>

 

[mukul_dube]

<p>I see nothing wrong with the background. It does not keep the main subject from dominating.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>I think the Japanese refer to the double OOF imaging as "Ni-sen". I agree that it is distracting from an otherwise fine image. Older lens designs (but not all), due to less well corrected designs, often give smoother "Bo-ke", and are not very expensive for the most part. But which ones? The version IV 1979 Summicron 35mm design is outlandishly priced. What about other CV lenses, like the 35mm classic (recently discontinued) f2.5? It's a good lens and does anybody known how it performs re bo-ke? If I can borrow it from a friend, I will upload a pix.</p>

<p>I read somewhere that "bo-ke" is a somewhat derogatory Japanese term for fuzzy thinking older people. Maybe you are just too young and your lens will perform better as you age?</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Denton, and others,</p>

<p>Here are two images with the modern lens VC 35mm f2.5 at 2.3 foot focus distance (On the near suspended lamp shade; the background is at about 15 feet), on an M8 Leica body (effective focal length of the 35mm is about 47mm on the cropped sensor M8).</p>

<p>The VC 35 classic f2.5 lens has not the speed or other fine qualities of the 40mm, but seems to have fairly smooth bo-ke.</p><div></div>

[aplumpton]

<p>And at a smaller diaphragm (with same focus point of 2.3 feet)</p><div></div>

[andrew_viny]

<p>My 40 'cron is GREAT even wide open and I picked it up for $390.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Mike Johnston, when writing for a British B&W photo magazine, considered the 35mm VC f2.5 Classic as one of the best B&W lenses he had used, so I guess I shouldn't have said above that it may not have the other qualities of the 40mm (apart from speed). A great buy, I think, at it's new price of about three hundred dollars a few years ago.</p>

[Gus Lazzari]

<p>You're not kidding Arthur, "Leica 35mm f2 Summicron 8-element, Mint in Box" on 12-23-2010 through Ebay from a Texas, USA seller, just sold for a whopping <strong>$3,950 !</strong></p>

<p>Maybe not as bad, but the image that Denton provided, reminds me of the "Bokeh" of a mirror lens!<br /> I definitely agree that it detracts from the otherwise wonderful subject matter.</p>

<p>Picture below: Leica IIIc, 8-Element 35mm f/2 Summicron, Leitz 35 VF, orange RF filter and "red stitch" "Leic-a-glove"</p><div></div>

[leicaglow]

<p>Arthur, Your examples point out something I have become keenly aware of, only recently. You don't have to shoot with a fast lens to great bokeh and OOF areas. In fact, as you demonstrate, a good f/2 or f/2.8 is often sufficient. I can say that the 50mm Summicron on Summilux will do the trick, but at a price. Does VC still make a 50mm? It might be a good question to put to Stephen Gandy at CameraQuest.com.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Michael, I see that the nickel versions are available of some 50mm VC lenses (f2.5?), at a price, also the f1.1 lens, but apart from its price, it apparently has bo-ke (or bokeh) like the 40mm lens. Gus's 8 element 35mm version 1 is a beauty (and apparently a better performer than some of the later Midland 35mm lenses, except maybe the version 4), as is the IIIc (Is the orange filtered RF patch easier to focus with and/or a flare reducer?) and nice (Chinese made-via Cameraquest?) half case that protects and makes the Barnack Leica types very handholdable.</p>

<p>I assume that the earlier Summicron 50s (1970s or early 80s?) might still be picked up at a reasonable price (4-600$) in clean optical condition. I have not tested the Elmar-M 50mm f2.8 for OOF rendition, but as it is so easy to do this quickly with the digital body I am tempted to spend a little time and test the various lenses in my bag. Something that can be valuable with the 50 to 90 or 135 lenses, given their limited depth of field and the influence of OOF information on the overall image appearance. </p>

[denton_hoyer]

<p>Hi Folks,<br>

Thanks for the recommendations; always interesting banter around here!<br>

I have the CV 35mm f2.5 lens and it is an exceptional lens. I must say, I can't recall any photos where I had shot it at specular highlights at f2.5, but I suspect at that aperture there wouldn't be problems with most lenses, agreed? <br>

The 40mm focal length has become my favorite. Couple this lens with an external 40mm viewfinder and it greatly improves my composition, although this shot was slightly off on one edge.<br>

The observed Bokeh with this lens, on closer inspections, seems to be an enlarged diffused image with an unattractive hard edged ring, similar to a mirror lens. Reminds me of some of the airy discs from OOF stellar images one sees in a poorly corrected telescope.<br>

By the way, this is L. Menendez and he hangs around Rockefeller and takes photos of people with a Graflex and polaroid back, AND he uses flash bulbs! He's a bit of an iconic figure in NYC. <br>

Denton</p>

[denton_hoyer]

<p>Oh, and I forgot I REALLY needed f1.4 with those light levels, I think it was handheld at 1/15.</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Denton, I agree with Michael that slower lenses (like the f2.5 you mentioned) can yield good bo-ke, but what seems to come out of this is that many moderrn optical formulas, for all their improved resolution and contrast out to the corners, provide disagreeable OOF rendition, even at smaller apertures which do not guarantee improvement of this trait compared to very wide apertures. Apparently it has something to do with the recent ability to better correct 2nd or 3rd order lens aberrations. I was glad to measure the quite good bo-ke of the 35mm VC lens and am keen to check other RF lenses, especially the longer focal length lenses where OOF of many scenes occupies a large part of the frame.</p>

[denton_hoyer]

<p>I've been thinking about the Zeiss 50mm f1.5 Sonnar-C or Nokton 50mm 1.5 I'm aware of the focusing optimum for the Zeiss. Images I've seen of these seem to be quite pleasant wide open in OOF areas. Any comments?<br>

Denton</p>

[jeff_drew4]

<p>I have used both 50mm C-Sonnar and the CV Nokton 50mm. The CV Nokton is a terrific value considering its quality and price! That said, the Zeiss designed C-Sonnar is one of my faves due to the image quality and the 1/3 f-stops and 10-blade diaphragm. The 50mm C-Sonnar is my preferred Bessa-T lens and a 50mm Elmar M is my favorite on my Leica body. The Elmar 50 gives that classic look and is an occasional deal if you shop hard!</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Jeff, you are right about the value of both the Nokton and Elmar-M 50mm lenses, while the latter is an up to date Leica optical design that knows few competitors I think at equal f stops, especially from f4 down. Beautifully compact. I am no longer using my Bessa T (having acquired an M4-P) and have it and some viewfinders all in mint condition if anyone is interested. </p>

[ray .]

Anyone have experience with the 40mm Ultron pancake lens made for Canon EOS and/or other DSLR's?

[steve_bellayr]

<p>Summicron III or IV or newer f2.0<br>

Zeiss f1.5 50mm Sonnar<br>

Elmar-m 50mm f2.8<br>

All are excellent and will meet your specifications. Each is slightly different than the other. In longer lenses: 75mm Summarit f2.5 90mm Tele-elmarit f2.8 There are others.</p>

[denton_hoyer]

<p>Hi Ray,<br>

I use the 40mm Ultron for Canon EOS and like it very much. It's incredibly compact, even on my 5DMII. Can't remember about the Bokeh, but no bad experiences. If you like, I can check it at various focal lengths. It's as good as my Canon 50mm f14 lens across the field and in the center, but I'm not quoting lp/mm or anything!<br>

Denton</p>