What Ruined My Film?

[k5083]

<p>Today I had 4 rolls of Ektar and 1 roll of Reala processed at my local CVS. All 5 rolls were shot at the same time with the same camera (Minolta XE-5) and were processed by the same tech on the same machine at the same time at CVS. Each of the 4 rolls of Ektar has the problem shown below, affecting the first few frames. The aqua-blue streaks (seen in negative; in positive, yellow-orange) go across the first few frames, then persist for several more frames around the film spocket holes only, then by frame 5 have gone away.</p>

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[k5083]

<p>Each film also bears a code, which looks computer printed, in the same color as the offending streaks. You can see it above frame 1 above; here is a close-up.</p>

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[larrydressler]

<p>Light leak. you can tell as it is even in the unexposed frame area and the leak is on the bottom of your camera</p>

[k5083]

<p>The code is different on each roll. I assume that because of the pattern of streaks, the code, etc., this problem has nothing to do with my camera. I thought at first that it was a problem with the processor, but then, the roll of Reala done at the same time is perfect. So did I get a defective batch of Ektar? Or is it some problem that the CVS processing system is having with the Ektar? If anyone knows where these printed numbers come from, it would be a clue. </p>

<p>Thanks for any help figuring out who to blame for my ruined pics. :(</p>

<p> </p>

[k5083]

<p>Larry: Light leak in the processing machine you mean?</p>

 

[k5083]

<p>Larry: I'm not so sure. In the subsequent frames, the problem occurs around the sprocket holes -- both top and bottom. It's only the first few frames, only Ektar. And there's that code. Just doesn't look like light leaks I'm used to. </p>

 

[larrydressler]

<p>Well I have only used Ektar in 120 so in that I am not sure... Sorry I did shoot one in 35mm but there was no problem other than they could not scan it properly. I hope someone else chimes in as no one has ever said anything like this about 35mm Ektar you may want to write Kodak and send the examples to them as they may know more... Unlike BP knows about oil leaks. :)</p>

[thirteenthumbs]

<p>I think it is due to the film touching itself during processing. The code is printed in red by the machine for identification. Ask the tech, but I bet they load the film from the cassette leader end first.</p>

[StuartMoxham]

<p>Looks like light leaks to me, the problem is where did they occur. With a regular roller film processor the films are taped to a leader card. Before the films can be taped to the card the film tongue must be extracted from the canister. Some times is difficult to extract the tongue and when people are not careful the canister can become damage around the felt light trap and the canister is no longer light tight so a small amount of light enters the canister before it is put into the processor. Other places for light leaks could be the camera, the proccesor or the canister itself could have been damage during manufacture then there is the small possiblity that the film was fogged during manufacture.</p>

[k5083]

Thanks for the input so far guys. I went back and looked at other films I have processed at this location over the past few months and a couple (from 2 other cameras, different film) had a similar but much lesser problem, but just immediately around the sprocket holes where I didn't notice it before. The seals in this camera were changed by me fairly recently, and I'd never done a bad seal job but there can always be a first time. If one were to assume it is a camera leak, I would suspect the hinge seal because of the even top-to-bottom nature of the leaks, so I redid that last night. I still suspect the processor though.

[jon_williams2]

<p>The rebate number is put on the film by the manufacturer, in this case Kodak. What you have is a classic light leak, but the question is from where? The clues are on the scan you included. First the leak is at the start of the roll so it is happening when the film is fresh from the canister or when it has been exposed and rewound. Secondly it has a dark streak at the start of the roll followed by a mirror image streak further down the film. That would indicate the leak its hitting the film (most likely from the opening on the cassette) while it is rolled up in the cassette. Lastly your shot can be seen along with the light leak, this would indicate the light leak occurred <em><strong>after </strong></em>the film had been exposed. Film fogged pre-exposure will almost always be complete with no sign of the image taken with the camera. My best guess it was fogged during the film leader retrieval process. Either the "tongue puller" itself is broken (usually has a bend in it) or the lab tech pulled the leader in a very bright location. Either way it is most likely the lab's fault. Most processing agreements would entitle you to a like amount of unexposed film and a refund of all processing charges. </p>

[john_shriver]

<p>To test your lab, buy a cheap roll of film, don't expose it, twirl in the leader, and have it processed.<br /> It is possible the leak is from leader extraction, or from improper sealing between the film magazine and the processing machine as it pulls the film from the magazine.<br /> If it is a light leak in the camera, it would have to be by the take-up spool. That's usually where the rear door hinge is, which often needs a "novel" type of seal. The reason I think so is that you can see the shadows from the film being exposed through the sprocket holes on your second picture.</p>

[jon_williams2]

<p>Light fogging from the processing machine, in the compartment that holds the film cassettes and leader card is extremely rare. The compartment has a fail-safe sensor that will not allow the film to be extracted unless the door is completely closed and employs a mechanical light trap that is not prone to failure. Lastly, every single roll run through the processor, would have some degree of fogging and it would occur over the entire length of the film. </p>

[k5083]

<p>I wonder if I should leave the leader tongue hanging out in the future, in case Jon is right. Or would that just throw the techs off their game? I am friendly with the techs so I can explain what I've done. The photo lab in this store is in a bright location, at the front of the store in a corner with big display windows on 2 sides. To me it is clear that light is leaking onto the first few frames of the film while it is rolled up. As John points out, and is even more clear from later frames that I didn't post a scan of, there are sprocket-hole-sized blue patches adjacent to but offset from the sprocket holes, as if the overlying layer of rolled film masked the light from hitting the underlying layer except for where the holes are (my CU of the code number shows one such). The fact that the big leak is at frame 0, and appears to have masked frames 1-4, suggests to me that this was when the film was rolled up in the canister, not on my camera takeup spool, because on the takeup spool the later frames would overlie and mask the earlier. Jon's leader-extraction theory is sounding good to me. I guess this also could have occurred if I loaded the film under too-bright conditions, but I'm careful about that and it was a cloudy morning.</p>

<p> </p>

[timwitt]

<p>I always send off or deliver my 35mm film with 1 1/2 inches of leader out and write EXPOSED on the cassette and both sides of the leader with a marker. On my modern cameras I set custom function to leave the leader out on rewind. On the oldies, I rewind slow and listen for the leader to come off the take-up. For the ones I miss, I retrieve the leader myself. My C41 goes walk-in to Ritz and the techs like the leader out so they don't have to fish it out. E6 goes to Dwaynes direct or through Walmart and I've never had a problem. I also leave the leader out on silver B&W so my tech doesn't throw a fit, he's hard to get along with and is slow to process but I've never had a problem with his work except when he first started. I've known him since before I was born :)</p>

[randrew1]

<p>The problem is definitely a light leak. Since two different cameras have shown (to some extent) the same problem, fogging in the camera is not likely. You normally wind the leader inside the cassette and all film was taken to the same minilab so that all of these films needed the leader extracted before processing. That is the most likely place for this fog propblem. If you submit rolls with the leader hanging out, I'll bet the problem goes away. </p>

<p>If you think this is a good lab (for the most part) then you should show them what you've found. If they deny responsibility, you may want to find another lab. If they show some concern--especially if they want to fix the problem--then I would continue to deal with them. </p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Lastly your shot can be seen along with the light leak, this would indicate the light leak occurred <em ><strong >after </strong></em>the film had been exposed. Film fogged pre-exposure will almost always be complete with no sign of the image taken with the camera. </p>

</blockquote>

<p> In most cases, it is impossible to tell whether the image or the fog happened first by looking at the image. Pre-exposure fog that is just enough to cause light fog will look pretty much like the same amount of fog post exposure. There are some extreme cases where the order can be determined, but they are exceptions.</p>

[Jerry_]

<p>Yes, leaving the film 'out a bit' after shooting will make it less likely the nice *CVS* folks will have to dig into the cassette to get the film out to load into their machine. The edge-to-edge streaks are from light hitting the film, not likely from anything in your camera....unless you changed rolls in noon-time direct sunshine on the flight-line? You do shield your film in bright sunlight, don't you?</p>

<p> </p>

[k5083]

<p>Yes I do Jerry! And like I said, these rolls were loaded and shot on a cloudy morning anyway. </p>

<p>I guess leaving the leader out will be my new practice. I'm good at that with my manual winding bodies, but my auto winding cameras, unlike Tim's, don't have a leader-out option. So I guess I'll be investing in one of those leader digger out thingies and training myself to do it better than the CVS techs.</p>

[jon_williams2]

<p>In regard to pre or post camera exposure light leaks...I should clarify, C-41 films will show this phenomenon, not traditional black and white film or color transparency films. I know it sounds crazy but it is true in my experience. Also very often when film is in too bright of conditions during loading it will show a light leak with a distinctive "fuzzy" edge that corresponds to the texture of the felt on the cassette. Very rarely in modern film will you see "light piping" were the light will travel through the film itself, much like fiber optics transmit light. Modern films seem all but immune to this type of fogging. </p>

[h_s1]

<p>Tim, I agree with your practice of leaving the leader out when you give it for processing. I also have set my cameras to leave the leader out from rewind note the rewind dot when rewinding in the older ones. In the former case, the camera winds the film to the first frame anyway, skipping over X, 00 and 0 frames I think. Now, in the latter case, I find it fun to get as many frames out of a film as possible. Got 28 frames out of the last 24 frame slide flim I got processed :)</p>

<p>I do that by loading the film in the camera in the dark, having charged the camera for action first (so that I can take the first show without having to wind the film). First I position the leader on the sprocket, without taking more of it out of the cassette, darken the room, and pull the cartridge towards its compartment in the camera back. The effect is that the first frame is usually good, it is the one usually marked as X on the film.</p>

<p>The problem, however, is that the tech might pull the leader further out and destroy the first frame. This happened with me once a few months ago. I know it because the tech did it right in front of me while I was standing there :( Since then, I just roll the leader into the cassette.</p>

[timwitt]

<p>HS, I always squeeze my dollar until the eagle grins, therefore I also like to squeeze as many frames out of a roll as possible. It's a challenge and it has a level of fun associated with it but only on the oldies, can't do it with my EOS-3 or T90 but I tried.</p>