I Did My First Wedding....A Few Pics

[susanne_beerli]

<p>Let me elaborate (I think this is frequently said on this forum in some way or the other):<br>

Weddings are not practice sessions.<br>

If you do go and shoot a wedding as a first shooter, you should be able to pull it off with both feet running . Either you should feel 100% capable that you will do a good job by yourself and deliver a result which is technically (and hopefully also artistically) at an industry standard or should second shoot with a pro to pick up all the essentials you need before going solo.<br>

I think it is irresponsible (and arrogant) to go for a *12 HOUR* wedding on your first gig, deliver the results you did and ask for critique. There is enough information on this forum and elsewhere to have allowed you to prepare better than you did.<br>

I just don't think it makes sense to critique the presented work on an image-by-image level.<br>

[btw. I chose the first path. My first was a 1-1/2 hour civil ceremony and I even today have some of those images in my portfolio. I've expanded my technique in the past few years (with equipment upgrades helping me) but all the skills necessary to take images in the gamut of situations which presented themselves on that day were already in place.]</p>

[steve_elms]

<p>Let me ask you this. Is it "arrogant" and "irresponsible" to do a 12 hour wedding when I have fully informed the bride and groom of my level of experience, and told then that they were my first ever wedding? The price I charged was about 1/3 of the going rate in my area. I fully understand that price doesn't matter and that the bride and groom deserve to be totally happy with the shots of their wedding. Having said that, when I got married I CHOSE to spend a bit more money and go with a photographer that had a proven track record. This couple was more than willing to grant me the opportunity to shoot their wedding, and realized they were likely not going to get the quality of a seasoned pro like yourself.<br>

I was confident that I could do a good job. I have spent time with a local pro and I have done lots of research on this and other forums. I posted my pictures knowing full well that I would take critisims. I willingly and wantingly accept those as I believe that is how one learns. Having said that, there is not much learning value in a reply basically simply stating that my pictures sucked and I was "arrogant" and not prepared. I think it comes down to basic people skills in that when giving critisisms, it's always a good thing to at least point out one thing that the person maybe did right. To each their own, but in all due respect, I found your reply to be "arrogant". I am envious that you were able to go into your first wedding shoot being 100 % confident in all that you did. That is an admirable quality.<br>

Regards,<br /> Steve</p>

[oofoto]

<p>Steve,<br>

Perfect and respectful reply in pointing out the circumstances of the paid gig.<br>

Susanne,<br>

I bet you haven't got the balls to point us to your professional work....</p>

[catherinevankempen]

<p>Seriously Susanne, simmer down. I thought the images were very nice and had I been the client I would have been very pleased ! There are many amazing photographers out there and I am pretty sure I will never ever reach their level; I guess that means I should just put my camera down huh. </p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p>While Susanne offers some valid points, I don't see Steve as an arrogant newcomer.....I have seen several others that qualify for the title though here on the forum. If it were up to me, I'd like to see everyone go through some form of apprenticeship before they take on the sole responsibility of shooting a wedding. I'd also like to see some people get some actual studio experience before they open up their own studio.....</p>

<p>My standing suggestions for newcomers:</p>

<p >Becoming a professional photographer is not a matter of practice…..it’s a craftsmanship which requires training, knowledge, and skill. If you're serious about the profession I would suggest that you find a mentor, 2nd shoot/assist an established pro for awhile, network with local photographers, join a pro organization like WPPI and/or PPA and practice applying the techniques as much as possible. Also, Suggest that you invest in Steve Sint's book on wedding photography for now (you can find it at amazon.com). Excellent real-world wedding coverages can be studied via DVDs from: http://www.photovisionvideo.com/store/CTGY/DVD/<br /><br /></p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>If these are your best you need to . . . </em></strong> I didn't read anywhere that the images posted were the 13 best. In fact The Photographer only used the word "best" twice:<strong></strong><br>

<br>

“I guess I need more flash....would not using the diffusion dome be <strong ><em >best</em></strong>?”<br />“Excellent feedback from everyone, thank you so much. All your points are valid and I will make my <strong ><em >best </em></strong>efforts to make my second shoot <strong ><em >better</em></strong> than the first!”<br>

<br>

Whilst we might assume that the images are considered "Reasonable" to "OK" to "Good" by the Photographer: my initial interpretation was that the 13 images represented a spread of type; and a range of conditions experienced by the Photographer. My impression is that this was to facilitate a broad critique. In this regard the request for the critique was well planned, and professionally executed, and throughout the responses the same level of professionalism has been exhibited by Steve.<br>

<br>

Any Professional exchange requires, actually deserves, etiquette. That works both ways. Forums which are kept in perpetuity tend to allow judgments to be made both from isolated comments and also from the amalgam of one’s repeat performances. It seems to me, a business person being unnecessarily, and proactively aggressive or unhelpful in a public forum is akin to driving aggressively or inconsiderately, with bright advertizing placards on the side of one’s car. It seems to me also likely that upon reading forums like this one, judgments are made: not only by one’s peers; but also by one’s clients, both present & potential. <br>

<br>

WW</p>

[nikkidoodles]

<p>For your first wedding shoot you did really well!<br>

Just need to adjust some of the lighting and softness mostly.</p>

 

[hjoseph7]

<p>Considering he tough shots on the beach, Not bad ! </p>

[KenPapai]

<p><em>"I think it is irresponsible (and arrogant) to go for a *12 HOUR* wedding on your first gig, deliver the results you did and ask for critique. There is enough information on this forum and elsewhere to have allowed you to prepare better than you did."</em></p>

<p>Susanne, I've seen Pros do worse work than the many photos he posted here. Where do you post your work? Even samples? I agree taking on a 12 hour job seems a little much for a first timer.</p>

[steve_elms]

<p>I had a job booked before this one that was a 3 hour job (which I was much more comfortable with). Then I got a call from the other people about 3 weeks before their wedding so it was a last-minute thing. The actual shoot wasn't 12 hours (I was given about a 4 hour break in the middle). I thought the pace would be good because we had LOTS of time between the ceremony (15 minutes at City Hall) and the reception (which was about 8 hours later). I figured this would be good for me as the pace would be very relaxed and I could take my time with it.<br>

I did the 3 hour wedding this past Friday but now I'm affraid to post the pics and ask for feedback lol! But I did take as much as I could learn from this post and the suggestions provided, and applied it and I think it did help a ton, so thank you once again :)</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Folks, I believe Steve responded quite well to Suzanne's post, so why not leave it at that? Steve--I, for one, would like to see your newest work.</p>

[stp]

<p>Like Steve, I fully informed the B&G that my photography centers on landscapes and that the 3 weddings I've done were done long ago and as a second to a professional. Nevertheless, they apparently valued my landscape skills and my friendship more than hiring a professional wedding photographer. While I missed a few important shots, I would say that my effort was successful. At the end of the day, I would have been more successful if this had been my 3rd or 4th wedding. Again, I can identify with Steve's experience, I think he did a good job, and I too have benefitted from the constructive advice most folks have offered to Steve in this thread.</p>

[joe_h3]

<p>Steve,</p>

<p>I thought your photos were very nice for your first shoot. My only suggestion (which has already been pointed out..) is to work on your colors being over saturated (skin tones) and more aware of DOF and aperature selected. Otherwise, nice work and composition in my opinion!</p>

 

[james_cox3]

<p>Nice job Steve,</p>

<p> I think i nearly messed myself on my first solo wedding, not because I didn't think I could do it, but when it's your first time, it's your first time.</p>

<p> Second shooting is good and all, and well worth the investment as far as skills etc. go, but there is no way that it will fully prepare to be the big dog for the first time.</p>

<p> It looks like you have some really nice shots there and as the bride and groom were fully aware of the situation I think they will be thrilled with the results.</p>

<p> Don't be afraid to put images up for comment, for the most part the information you will receive is worth the cost putting up with a few "arrogant" posters.</p>

<p> Cheers</p>

[steve_elms]

<p>Thanks again. I just got an email from the bride and groom and her family and they were very pleased with the results. At the end of the day, that is really all that matters right?</p>

[betty_lowrey]

<p>Exactly Steve. If your bride and groom are pleased, the Peanut Gallery doesn't matter.<br>

If you want some inspiration (instead of negativity) check out Jasmine Star's blog. She has only been doing this for 2 years and has succeeded in ways most photogs only DREAM about. It certainly can inspire anyone new to work hard, dream big, sharpen their skills, and believe it can be done.</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>"....the bride and groom and her family and they were very pleased with the results. At the end of the day, that is really all that matters right?" -Steve</em><br>

Honestly, No, that's really not all that really matters. While customer satisfaction is important, doing a good job based on: your own standards, industry standards, and the standards of your peers is very important. There will come a day when you'll have a bride that isn't happy, regardless of having done a good job....would that mean that you did a poor job? Also, you'll often have a B/G that just doesn't understand/appreciate good photography and they may not be able to appreciate a professional job from a Johnny-come-lately-wanabe type of job. Professional-level work takes experience, training, and skill and bottom-line, you have to pay your dues before you "earn" the privilege of calling yourself a professional photographer.</p>

 

[steve_elms]

<p>I hope you are not insinuating that I am referring to myself as a "professional", as I have never proclaimed to be such. I agree that becoming a "professional" takes time, training and skill. I disagree however that the hapiness of the bride and groom is not of paramount importance. Who sets the "industry standards" and "peer standards" that you speak of? Is there some sort of tangible benchmark that I need to be striving to? I look at a Picasso and personally think it isn't one bit good. Is photography not an artform which is thereby completely subjective? To say that the bride and groom dont understand good photography is like telling someone they are wrong because they do not like Italian food. Having said that I am in complete agreement that I need to learn much more. I personally think it comes down to expectations. Like I stated previously, I fully informed the bride and groom of my skill level. It is well within their power (and I actually suggested) to shop around and see what they like. From what they told me, based on the price and the way I interacted with them and their family, they were very happy. They praised me for my professionalism thoughout my dealings with them and did in-fact like the photographs. Are there photographers out there that could have done better? Absolutley without a doubt, and I hope that after perfecting the artform, I can call myself a "professional" and produce photographs that meet the industry and peer standards. For me, at this early stage in my skill development, hearing that the bride and groom were happy with their photographs was exactly what I wanted to hear.</p>

[steve_elms]

<p>Sorry I just re-read my thread and hope it didnt come across as rude. It certainly was not my intent... just engaging in a discussion and thats all :)</p>

[William Michael]

<p>Interesting philosophical direction this thread now takes.</p>

<p>My opinion is what is of "<em>paramount importance</em>" depends on the subject doing the evaluation; their position at the time of evaluation; and what the object of discussion actually is, which is being discussed.</p>

<p>If the object being discussed is the resultant Wedding Prints, (as here) and the subject discussing them is the Bride, then what is of <strong><em>Paramount Importance</em></strong> is her happiness with those prints.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if the discussion of the Wedding Prints is amongst peers, then what is of Paramount Importance is a general agreement of "quality" displayed by: technical excellence, art, style, range of capture, securing the moment . . . etc the list goes on</p>

<p>So that might seem as I am fence sitting, and having a bet each way, but there is more:</p>

<p>If the subject doing the discussing is <strong><em>oneself</em></strong>, and the object being discussed is the <strong><em>Whole Wedding Coverage</em></strong>, including selling, planning, preparing, executing and postproduction, then what is of <strong><em>Paramount Importance</em></strong> is quite simply being able to answer <strong><em>YES</em></strong> to two questions:</p>

<p>. was it the absolute best I could do under those particular set of circumstances?</p>

<p>. was it better than what I could have done under the same circumstances, if the wedding were last month?</p>

<p>So what is ultimately of Parmount Importantnce is an amalgam of lots of minor "Paramount Importances" - some of which I have not mentioned. </p>

<p>But I think those last two questions, have the most weight when evaluating. </p>

<p>WW</p>

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>"I disagree however that the happiness of the bride and groom is not of paramount importance. Who sets the "industry standards" and "peer standards" that you speak of?" -Steve</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Actually I didn't write what I wrote to attack you and I didn't think you'd take what I had written defensively....but I was wrong. Try slowing down, and re-read what I said. I didn't say that satisfying the B/G wasn't important,... it is. But you'll find after shooting hundreds of weddings that it's more important to please yourself and the standards that you've set at that point. I've shot many weddings where the B/G couldn't be happier, but I had a better sense of just how good my performance was. It's nice that they like the pics, but they're not pros....(most of the time but now and then I'll shoot for a peer). I'll also take a job once in awhile for a friend who owns his own studio.....he's been self-supporting, has his own retail space and his own staff and he's been in the business for over 30 years. Pleasing him gives me a much better sense of personal satisfaction than simply pleasing the B/G (which happens 97% of the time anyway). Who sets the industry standards? Well, that would be the industry.....which is why I suggest joining PPA and/or WPPI, once you do, enter a print competition and brace yourself for "professional" standards. I also suggest that you network with local pros. There you develop "real professional relationships" and you can seek their feedback. Once you've established your own peer network, then you'll understand what is meant by "peer standards". Good luck.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"But you'll find after shooting hundreds of weddings that it's more important to please yourself and the standards that you've set at that point."</em></strong><br>

<br>

Hah! David why did I even bother putting my fingers to the keyboard with those two questions of mine - we must have been reading each other's notes for this essay question, and we were writing the answers simultaneously! <br>

<br>

:)<br>

<br>

WW</p>

 

[david_schilling___chicago_]

<p><em>"Is photography not an artform which is thereby completely subjective?" -Steve</em><br>

<em></em><br>

No, it's actually a craft first that may or may not also be an artform..........</p>

<p>WW, it's not the first time we've been on the same page :-)</p>

[steve_elms]

<p>Haha this is getting deep! David, I did not take your post as a personal attack. I thought it may have appeared that way after I re-read my reply. I appologize if that's how my response appeared.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>From another perspective--it is a common thing for new wedding photographers to claim that the clients were ecstatic and to use the 'that's all that matters' statement as a security and comfort blanket (after having taken a lot of critiques). I'm not saying you are doing this. I'm saying it is not uncommon. The clients' satisfaction and happiness is, of course, extremely important--near, if not on top, the heap. It just isn't the only thing and shouldn't be used as a crutch.</p>