Photography,paedophilia and terrorism

[bernie moore]

"Fear is the mind killer." Duncan Idaho?

[chris_werner]

I think it's part of the Bene Jesserit (sp?) chant or whatever taught to Paul Atreides by Jessica, usually voiced by Paul in the book.

[martijn_houtman]

<p>Chris is correct, and I quote:</p>

<p><i>The litany originated with the Bene Gesserit as a means to calm themselves or reduce their fear.</i></p>

<p>From good old <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litany_against_fear'>Wikipedia</a>.</p>

[hjoseph7]

The other day I was standing infron of a Federal building taking pictures with my point and shoot camera. i was wearing funny looking clothes, my tongue was hanging out and my eyes were bulging. Do you know that the two security guards sitting in a booth right infront of that building did not even bat an eye lash. I guess they mistook me for one of those Tourist. It's not what you shoot but how you shoot it !

[brucecahn]

It has caused me to give up street photography in NYC, something that I have done for 20 years. You can't really blame Clinton or Cheney. It happened before 9/11 as well. I wish I understood how this happened.

[david brown]

It is a case of a minority doing bad and stuffing it up for the rest of us as usual.

[mark_loader]

Dare I say it...<Crikey!> What a response! Although I do feel I've rained on everyone's parade. Can't help but think that those inconsiderate types with TRIPODS are part of the military-industrial complex out to undermine our precious bodily fluids! And ladies, please, before you call in the SWAT team on that man with the camera, consider, just for a moment, that it might be ME, and the kids are mine or at least with me, and my heart is not twitching with evil desires, but full of love and wonder. Phew! Thanks for your time, friends, I think I might try something a little more light-hearted next time! Like persecuting Canonites...always good for a giggle...right, my brother Nikonians? Cheers, Mark

[mark_loader]

Oh, and would the last sane person to leave the planet please turn out the light? That would be you, Lex...thanks (Mark- currently horizontal)

[Brad_]

Yes, one can get all worked up and worried about all these bad possibilities; and let fear run your life.

 

Or you can just go out and shoot and be a photographer.

 

Works for me. Zero hassles, tons of photos...

[john_hermanson2]

An American citizen friend of mine in upstate NY says he doesn't go out and shoot alone anymore because (not having lily white skin) he has been approached, threatened and accused of a litany of things. Myself, I used to be a "railfan" traveling up to the old Delaware and Hudson rail yards in Binghamton NY to photograph the trains. NOW, they regularly arrest railfans because they might be terrorists trying to blow up the yard. The fear-mongering has been way over the top over the last 7 years, and it has definitely affected what used to be casual photography hobbies here in the US. John

[Brad_]

>>> NOW, they regularly arrest railfans because they might be terrorists trying to blow up the yard.

 

More like they're chased out because of all the people who die on the tracks not being aware of approaching trains. At

least here, anyway...

[GerrySiegel]

How is this for a theory. Movies that portray the mindless violence that supposed to inhabit our modern life. Jodie Foster is the queen of getting nailed and getting even. Take the movie Flight Plan. Young airospace engineer has daughter kidnapped in flight by a perverse pseudo US marshall whom she blows away in a chilling game of get mad and get even. The Brave One. Young radio host gets beat up while walking her big dog and a boyfriend by perverted sadist street gang. Buys illegal weapon and blows the crap out of them. No Country for Old Men. Strange funny haired psychopath kills without mercy strangers by flipping a coin. Lots of random violence and blood spattered. This isn't over the top James Bond fantasy. It says " this is a world of violent animalistic people who will stalk you and kill you for their sport."

 

When I carried a tripod some years ago at Lincoln Memorial the crowds stood away from us so I could get a better angle of the family. Tripod meant professional and deserved some kind of respect if not awe. Now I guess the Park Service will shake me down. Likely not that bad. Here in Hawaii we are used to Japan tourists who use tripods and are more victims than antagonists. Come to the islands. Bring your tripod. Bring money. Enjoy:-)

[michaelyoung]

I'm of a mixed mind on this.<p>

 

Three people, one the son of a neighbor, the other two a father and son died in the towers on 9/11<p>.

 

On the other hand, two agents of the FBI/Joint Terrorism task force came knocking on my front door a few months back inquiring as to why I was taking photographs of the Transamerica Pyramid in San Francisco.<p>

 

I'm pleased to say that the cat ran out the door and between their legs... followed in short order by my dog.<p>

 

It disrupted their carefully orchestrated "flip badge and start questioning immediately" routine.<p>

 

They eventually asked for the photos; I told them no.<p>

 

They left but not before--while smiling--letting me know they'd put me on their "list" of photographers so that "I wouldn't be bothered anymore..."<p>

 

At that point I took notice of the lead agents Notre Dame lanyard and reminded him that they'd just lost to LSU. How unfortunate. To his credit he did laugh.<p> (I was wearing my Tiger cap)

 

I did refrain from sarcastically asking them if they knew for a certainty that the Ryder truck that passed me on the lower deck of the Bay Bridge a few days earlier wasn't loaded with fertilizer and kerosene. No point in borrowing trouble.<p>

 

On another note, I frequently take photographs of policemen whenever the opportunity arises. I always ask respectfully first and they've always agreed.<p>

 

As far as the "fear" factor that so easily entrances the general population I tend to always revisit the origins of the word "spell" as it relates to properly writing a word and its second meaning as in to "cast a spell."<p>

 

The latter, magical, definition arose during that time in history when it was primarily the clergy who were educated enough to actually write a word. The general population found that feat so utterly amazing that they associated it with magic.<p>

 

Today's modern equivalent is the mysterious use of a tripod; you'd swear they were divining rods for the attention they attract. <p>

 

The point being, education and ignorance are relative things in the face of primal human emotions which remain unchanged from those long ago times.<p>

 

That leaves a scenario in which the same explanations and protests of innocence will have to be painfully repeated, over and over, forever to those who are fearful. It's a pain but it's the only--marginal--solution I see.<p>

 

Large corporations fight these types of issues everyday but have the luxury of PR and legal departments to alter public perception. Even so, caution often reigns supreme and I'd guess that hundreds of major corporate decisions, board room decisions, relate in some way to this very issue.<p>

 

The corporate team that developed Liquid Tide, for instance, had to BEG, PLEAD, and cajole corporate executives to actually get the product produced and in stores. <p>

 

Will it come to the point where we'll all be driving around with "<strike>Skateboarding</strike>Photography Is Not A Crime" bumper stickers? <p>

 

I hope not.

[michaelyoung]

I'm of a mixed mind on this.<p>

 

Three people, one the son of a neighbor, the other two a father and son died in the towers on 9/11<p>.

 

On the other hand, two agents of the FBI/Joint Terrorism task force came knocking on my front door a few months

back inquiring as to why I was taking photographs of the Transamerica Pyramid in San Francisco.<p>

 

I'm pleased to say that the cat ran out the door and between their legs... followed in short order by my dog.<p>

 

It disrupted their carefully orchestrated "flip badge and start questioning immediately" routine.<p>

 

They eventually asked for the photos; I told them no.<p>

 

They left but not before--while smiling--letting me know they'd put me on their "list" of photographers so that

"I wouldn't be bothered anymore..."<p>

 

At that point I took notice of the lead agents Notre Dame lanyard and reminded him that they'd just lost to LSU.

How unfortunate. To his credit he did laugh.<p> (I was wearing my Tiger cap)

 

I did refrain from sarcastically asking them if they knew for a certainty that the Ryder truck that passed me on

the lower deck of the Bay Bridge a few days earlier wasn't loaded with fertilizer and kerosene. No point in

borrowing trouble.<p>

 

On another note, I frequently take photographs of policemen whenever the opportunity arises. I always ask

respectfully first and they've always agreed.<p>

 

As far as the "fear" factor that so easily entrances the general population I tend to always revisit the origins

of the word "spell" as it relates to properly writing a word and its second meaning as in to "cast a spell."<p>

 

The latter, magical, definition arose during that time in history when it was primarily the clergy who were

educated enough to actually write a word. The general population found that feat so utterly amazing that they

associated it with magic.<p>

 

Today's modern equivalent is the mysterious use of a tripod; you'd swear they were divining rods for the

attention they attract. <p>

 

The point being, education and ignorance are relative things in the face of primal human emotions which remain

unchanged from those long ago times.<p>

 

That leaves a scenario in which the same explanations and protests of innocence will have to be painfully

repeated, over and over, forever to those who are fearful. It's a pain but it's the only--marginal--solution I

see.<p>

 

Large corporations fight these types of issues everyday but have the luxury of PR and legal departments to alter

public perception. Even so, caution often reigns supreme and I'd guess that hundreds of major corporate

decisions, board room decisions, relate in some way to this very issue.<p>

 

The corporate team that developed Liquid Tide, for instance, had to BEG, PLEAD, and cajole corporate executives

to actually get the product produced and in stores. <p>

 

Will it come to the point where we'll all be driving around with "<strike>Skateboarding</strike>Photography Is

Not A Crime" bumper stickers? <p>

 

I hope not.

[lex_jenkins]

<i>"At least here, anyway..."</i><p>

 

Brad, with that simple comment you may have said more than some folks realize.<p>

 

I suspect that the wildly differing experiences reported by photographers around the world have a lot to do with the differences in our locations and pursuits. Street photography in a city and at an event where people revel in the spectacle and dynamic of seeing and being seen is a very different experience from the pursuits many others have described.<p>

 

Context is everything.

[mark_loader]

I think it's fair to say that fear and paranoia are not unique to the right wing...pulling out a camera in a middle eastern or communist country could well result in a bullet to the head or electrodes being taped to who-knows-where. The man-with-a-camera/paedophile situation seems merely an extension of the "all men are rapists" declaration from the silly seventies, and is way left of any ballpark I know. As a loving father of three and a card-carrying detester of Rock Spiders, it is especially galling to be considered to be of that ilk because I merely happen to be pointing a camera at children - usually mine. As for the REAL troublemakers, the TRIPOD users, know this: if you're a manfrotto, gitzo, giotto, velbon or slik ...we're as MAD AS HELL AND WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE THIS ANY MORE! Nyaaa! Thank you, Lex...you can turn out the light now....love from Downunder...Mark

[lex_jenkins]

I don't have control of the light switch on this forum. Even if I did, I'd leave the lights on. Keeps the roaches away.

[aurel1]

The easiest solution is for everyone to take up nature photography. Trees won't come at you wielding shotguns.

[Brad_]

>>> The easiest solution is for everyone to take up nature photography. Trees won't come at you wielding shotguns.

 

Agreed. Life is full of common risks with far more devastating consequences. Yet people shoulder those everyday in normal situations

without a second thought; the possibility of being hit by a car, going to a hospital for a surgical procedure, eating tainted food, dealing with

a shady home improvement contractor, buying a used car, jogging along the side of the road, riding a bike, skiing, woodworking with

sharp tools, water skiing, and on and on.

 

Yet mention photography and all of a sudden people become self-centered thinking it's all about them; and project their inner feelings

about a particular subject onto others as to how they'll be treated by them. It's weird and a bit amusing; how life's everyday risks are

assessed.

 

If deep within you feel that people are looking at you askance because of what you do (which really says more about you, than how

others may feel), such as engaging in photography in public areas, well, you should probably find some other hobby or passion. Or stay

inside where it's nice and safe. And risks are minimal...

[sarah_fox]

Jacob, I'm just curious: How do you think the FBI knew who you were, such that they could track you down at your home for questioning? Did you identify yourself to anyone while you were photographing the Transamerica building? Might they have seen your license plate? Or could it have been facial recognition from some security camera? Or perhaps you posted some of the photos somewhere? This is actually a somewhat important issue, as it would speak to how the government compiles watch lists on us.

 

I'm not saying that we should avoid activities that get us put on watch lists, but rather that it is always good to be aware how the government tracks us, lest we find ourselves surprised someday.

[sprouty]

<I>"Or could it have been facial recognition from some security camera?"</I>

<P>

You need to watch less television.

[craig_gillette]

They track people from their activity on subversive websites using word recognition software. Notwithstanding the neighbor up the street, the last FBI agent I met was taking a Biblical Hebrew class. Perhaps he was going to infiltrate a fundamentalist church and he was creating a back story. Of course, that was back in the Carter era and he was a thumper and a Democrat.

[jpo3136b]

I don't know what's wrong with those people. Proceed with confidence. Maybe you'll lead them in a better direction.

[sarah_fox]

Sp, I was studying the mathematics of machine vision in graduate school back in the early 1990's. Law enforcement in some areas currently uses facial recognition software to match on-the-scene snapshots with mug-shot databases. Google is currently developing visual search capabilities. The technology is here, and it's being used, like it or not.

[sarah_fox]

Brad wrote, and others echoed, "Life is full of common risks with far more devastating consequences. Yet people shoulder those everyday in normal situations without a second thought"

 

And that's where the slippery slope begins. It's also the starting point by which which otherwise healthy frogs get boiled.

 

The First Amendment to the US Constitution states the following:"Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble..." The Fourteenth Amendment states: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." The provisions of that amendment expand the scope of the First Amendment and all other aspects of the Constitution to apply equally to state and local governments.

 

It's not the end of the world when some authority gets in my face and makes my life unpleasant for a few minutes. It won't destroy my life to be deprived of the use of my tripod. However, it is the beginning of the end of my freedoms when authorities start pushing back my Constitutional rights. If our freedoms are purportedly "worth dying for," then isn't it worth a bit of complaint or protest when they are abridged? We should all respond with livid indignation when our governments step beyond the law to tell us we can't do something that our Constitution tells us we can. It's about standing our ground on that slippery precipice.

 

The facts are simple:

 

A camera is used for "publishing" images to others, whether they go into print or simply get shown to friends. Therefore photography is an activity of the press and shall not be abridged. This isn't just a technicality. A camera is a tool that allows us to bear witness to a scene or event. Freedom of the Press is all about freedom of communication, which is what we try to do with our cameras.

 

Use of a camera or a tripod does not constitute probable cause (Fourth Amendment) that one is a terrorist, and therefore one should not be subject to search and/or seisure for engaging in these activities. Even if we were photographers of Middle Eastern descent, photographing an important government building, the Fifteenth Amendment clearly states, that our rights shall not be abridged on account of race, color, etc. As such, we should be "secure in (our) persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures" (again Fourth Amendment).

 

What is unclear about any of this? Put simply, law enforcement has no right to tell us what we can and cannot photograph or what methods (e.g. tripods) we can or cannot use to, provided we aren't somehow trespassing onto protected areas or directly violating the rights of others. They have no right to question us about our photographic activities unless a judge issues a warrant based on probable cause. They have no right to demand to see our photographs or, worse, to confiscate them. We should have every right to ignore any law enforcement official who approaches us and asks us questions, although we all KNOW where that will get us.

 

I guess I would end by saying I don't really mind being courteously checked out in the interest of public safety. Only the other day I was taking a photograph with a tripod alongside a railroad spur leading to a power plant. Four guys in a pickup were dispatched to check out what I was doing. I told them I was taking a photograph. They were satisfied with that, wished me a good day, and drove back to the power plant. That was OK by me. Hey, why not? But if they had told me I couldn't take photos there, I'd be rather hacked about it.

 

People, read your Constitution (US or otherwise), know your rights, and stand up for them. Otherwise they'll be taken away from you. If we were all steadfastly insistant about our rights, nobody will ever have to die in some awful war to regain them -- or to secure them in the first place, as taught to us by Ghandi.