M8.2 or Canon 5D markII?

[jamie_robertson2]

Noah, that is a superb photograph. Strangely, even at the small size on this forum, it just shouts Leica at you.

 

Great work, keep it up!

[el_fang]

<i>I really do more documentary work than photojournalism I guess. I should have been more specific.</i>

<p>Yes, that would have been helpful. :) If you've got the guts and talent for it, getting really good at doing one specific thing is definitely one good way to beat the competition - and it sure beats hauling all the gear around that's necessary to be a jack-of-all-trades. Still, if you haven't seen this already - you might want to have a quick read of <a href="http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq/Page_1.html" target="_blank">Michael Kamber's review of the M8 as he experienced it in Iraq</a>.</p>

[stephen_pitts]

Peter,

 

Simply put, since I have no budgetary constraints, I never enjoy reading commentary which is always trying to

compare the quality of a camera system compared to its cost (although I recognize that this is a necessary

consideration

for many people and there is no derision implied here).

 

My favorite car in the world is the Rolls Royce Phantom Drop

Head Coupe (its a convertible) -- I currently can't justify the means to buy one, but I still admire it everytime one

drives by in London (much more so than even the $1-2 million carbon fiber Porsche, Bulgari, Lambourghini sportscars

that frequent the summers here -- even though I have enjoyed racing Formula 1 cars around the track). But just

because I can't afford it, I don't spend endless amounts of time trying to justify why some other less expensive car is

much better, or that people are just paying for the name, etc., etc. (I don't own a car, btw, because I live in Central

London). Anyhow, its just a great car, I would love to take my family of four out with the dog and just drive into the

Countryside with it. Its inspirational.

 

Oftentimes on this site, I find people almost competing with their favorite candidates (in this case, cameras) to see

who can

figure out the "best bargain." For me, the best bargain, if you can afford it, is the photographic tool(s) that are going

to inspire you to want to take the pictures that so captivated you about photography in the first place. A camera

which is a technological tour-de-force in some ways may or may not inspire you in other ways. Its how you relate to

the camera and the type of pictures you want to take. Many people love the one of the simplest but best made

cameras in the world, the ALPA (its basic but very beautiful). My favorite two cameras in the world -- measured

simply by how much I have taken them out and enjoyed using them -- is the Leica M8 (and its predecessors) and the

Hasselblad 205FCC (discontinued). The former with the 16-18-21f4, 28f2 and 50f1.4 (which simply become an

effective 21-24-28f4, 35f2

and 70f1.4) is an unmatched combination for ordinary "street photography" (including nighttime, etc.). The image

quality, by way of this combination (as long as you don't blow it way up so that you "strain the pixels"), is also

simply unmatched in small format. It may not have the 6400ASA to get the motorcycle picture in Nikon's ad (no

doubt one of El Fang's absolute "must haves"), but then again what picture did you most enjoy? The motorcycle ad

for Nikon (posted by El Fang) or the Iraqi prayer scene through the bullet ridden glass (taken by Noah)? What

picture inspires you to go out and take photographs? (Both have considerable merit in their own way). But if you are

truly into "City life, concerts, landscape, travel and so - no sports and other action-stuff"

(sorry El Fang) then I truly believe that the M8 is without a peer.

 

 

I never would have even "gone" digital had it not been for trying out the M8 (and do still shoot black & white film on

occasion). By the way, the 1.33 factor you highlighted is

largely immaterial as the viewfinder appropriately frames the image except that you could get more megapixels if it

was fullframe (which for big enlargements would be a factor) as well as wider angle shots (although an effective

21mm is pretty wide!). A fullframe M8 will unlikely, if ever, be available in less than 2 years. In

economic terms, I've well paid for my M8 in just film savings over the last 6 months alone (although that's not the

reason

that I enjoy the camera so much).

 

Surely, you must know that the best way to make a choice is to simply try both of them out? Perhaps its just too

much fun to see the now familiar debate that takes place on this forum which sometimes gets tiring

due to the very few individuals (not all!) who I sometimes wonder if they could find some other outlet for their Leica

angst. It would

be like me going to a similar site that discussed cars and going on and on about how the Rolls Royce Phantom Drop

Head Coupe didn't accelerate fast enough, or didn't have ceramic brakes, or its navigation system wasn't as good as

the latest Nissan -- and all because I can't afford it. Its really missing the point.

 

Read "View Camera" or "B&W" if

you want to be inspired about photography. You might even take up a Ebony 4x5 and enjoy shooting black and

white using the zone system. Or just check out many of the other interesting forums here and you'll see the clear

pursuit of the craft as opposed to

the "bargain."

 

Enjoy no matter.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

[Brad_]

>>> For me, the best bargain, if you can afford it, is the photographic tool(s) that are going to inspire you to want to take the

pictures that so captivated you about photography in the first place.<P>

 

With respect to photography, I am inspired by <i>great photographs</i> made by <i>talented photographers</i>.<P>

 

I have never been inspired by a camera body or brand. Though I do try and use what works best for my needs, shooting photographs on

the street. Those needs are great image quality, great ergonomics, good low-light performance, robust design, great

reliability, and great service (should it be needed). <P>

 

That mindset probably comes from being an engineer and putting high consideration on matching requirements with camera/brand

attributes. The

fact that what I'm using now costs about 1/10 of "high-end" solutions is just icing on the cake.

[stephen_pitts]

Well Brad,

 

To tell you the truth, I also get inspired by "great photographs made by talented photographers" (although

semantically the former kind of implies the latter). I have a whole library of books containing photographs from

talented photographers. They encourage me to go out and create better and more interesting photographs (one is an

amazing set of pictures of a city at night). They inspire me.

 

But interestingly enough, they seem to use many different types of cameras? And since these photographers use

many different types of cameras, then all cameras must be equal? None seem to particularly encourage you to take

certain type of photographs? None inspire you in any way? Just for example, Charlie Waite, a renowned nature

photographer, prefers to use a 500-series Hasselblad firmly situated on a tripod for such work. It slows him down

and allows him to think. He has explained in many interviews how he likes that. Ansel Adams produced stunning

black & photographs using an 8'x!0' camera in some cases mounted on the top of this car (I would encourage

anybody to go and see the real prints, by the way). Great sports photographers use Canons to shoot a million

frames a second with a jaw dropping telephoto lens to get that ONE SHOT (the "ball on the bat"). Joe Cornish uses

a 4x5 camera with transperancies and is hired by the National Trust to document the UK landscape. Oh, and in

case I almost forgot, there are a lot of famous photographers which have used this funny little Leica rangefinder for

magazines like Life, National Geographic, etc., etc., etc. But we now have a new dawn (whew!).

 

So please just spare us the suspense and let us know what that great camera you use so that we can all save

ourselves 9/10 of the cost of "high end" solutions that we've clearly been dupped into using (from both a time and

money perspective, no doubt). This would truly be just the "icing on the cake."

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[sprouty]

Brad shoots with a Rebel.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* because he is one.

[sprouty]

BTW, he can also back-up his talk.

[ray .]

<i>That mindset probably comes from being an engineer and putting high consideration on matching requirements with

camera/brand attributes.</i><p>Wow, the wording of that statement just sucks all the blood right out of the whole process. Is this a

business we're running now? Or a math exam given out by a stern humorless teacher?

[Allen Herbert]

Someone once said to me, a magazine editor, you must be a good photographer if you use a Leica.

 

Sort of made me think it's a sad world. I pitched this from another forum thread which tells it all...

 

Ernest Hemingway: "Good pictures, what camera do you use?" Irving Penn: "What typewriter do you use?"

[Brad_]

>>> Wow, the wording of that statement just sucks all the blood right out of the whole process.

 

I understand, Ray. For inspiration, you might feel better simply buying a prestige brand that a famous name used in the past.

Sure is a lot easier...

[Brad_]

>>> None inspire you in any way?

 

Sorry, not in the slightest...

[stephen_pitts]

Yes Allen, and a similar story is told about Alfred Eisenstadt (who, it turns out, staged a lot of his "decisive

moments, the most famous being VJ day). The story goes on about a little kid who wanted a Leica so he could take

pictures like Eisenstadt...

 

So whats the point? The obsession with the notion that the camera doesn't make the photographer belies the entire

point. The camera will never make the photographer. But a camera can inspire a photographer and a camera can

become an indispensable tool of the photographer.

 

Great photographers pick their tools just as surely as a painter picks his brushes just as surely as Eisenstadt chose

a Leica just as surely as Hemingway carefully chose almost everything in his life (even his own death by suicide) --

including his typewriter! And his drink. And his shirts. And his pen. And his woman. Etc., etc. Talented people

care about their equipment (both in their trade and oftentimes in their life).

 

A great photographer will pick out his tools depending on the type of photographic artristry he is trying to accomplish

(as I noted in several examples above). What people seem to have a problem here with is when a person picks out a

Leica. Then the typical "Leica challenged" crowd descends upon thread decrying its lack of technology, cost, etc.

(of course, they fail to appreciate any technology except that which implys some form of automation or has recently

been developed regardless of its real ultimate utility).

 

Thanks to "Sp..." , above I checked out what the Rebel is all about (good demonstration on You Tube). Amazing

live video technology, incredible features (although a lot of menu complexity for me), etc. Astounding how much

they can pack in for such a low price. But then again, I've never been happy with the images Canon produces

except for their telephotos (which are truly just superlative(!) -- oh, and by coincidence, cost as much or more than

Leica). So for me, I'm pretty basic. I want the best imaging chain available. Oh, and with small format, it happens

to occur with rangefinder system that is a joy to use, even better. I have several cameras (a Linhof 617, Alpa with a

Biogon 38 and a Hasselblad Arcbody) which takes three motions just to be able to take the next picture. They're

primitive in one sense, but take great pictures. Simple cameras, great images. Thats useful technology.

 

Tools don't make the artist; but tools do matter. Just look at any artist... Including photographers.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Allen Herbert]

Four thoughts come to my mind.

 

The first is i cannot spell...pinched. The second is if Leica were the same price as any other cam...would it

cease being a designer label? Perhaps then we would not have to suffer out of focus, poorly exposed photos..but

are supposed to be really great and superior because they were taken with a Leica. The third thought is why does

Leica

market their product by claiming superiority over other cams.....when in the digital world it is just not true.

I suppose it's about price justification. The fourth is that the son of the M the re- badged Panasonic LX3

which cost at least a third more...if we are not talking badge technology just what are we talking about?

 

If Leica want to market designer label, superiority, fine. But they can expect challenges from other cam users....

 

No point in Leica users booing about it….

[Brad_]

>>> So whats the point? The obsession with the notion that the camera doesn't make the photographer belies the entire point.

 

Certainly not my obsession. Just taking issue with your view that cameras are inspirational. Maybe they are for some. Not for me.

Seems this "obsession" is about something else.

 

>>> What people seem to have a problem here with is when a person picks out a Leica. Then the typical "Leica challenged" crowd

descends upon thread decrying its lack of technology, cost, etc.

 

Really? Who might that "typical" crowd be? I could care less what people pick. I have a 5-6 friends that I shoot with that use a leica. Two

of then I shot in SF this Sunday. Makes no difference to me. They're really good photogs...

 

 

>>> But then again, I've never been happy with the images Canon produces...

 

Really... I'm happy with images from all brands if there's a good photographer behind the capture and post processing...

[stephen_pitts]

Brad,

 

Let me ask you a question: since you own a Rebel, why do you spend so much time on the Leica Rangefinder

forum?

 

I'll admit that I buy stuff that I like and enjoy using it so I never keep up-to-date on the latest cameras that get

produced. As such, I had to check out the Rebel camera that you were using once "Sp..." revealed your secret

photographic weapon. It is very impressive -- the level of the features it offers is astounding. But then again, I'm

skeptical about the actual image quality it procuces given my previous experiences with Canon's top of the line

cameras (to be fair, I haven't seen the latest Rebel).

 

But, more importantly, no one I know who actually owns a M8 is spending their time on the Canon forum (a system

which in general I have a lot of respect for and is invaluable in many types of photography) poo-pooing the Rebel,

etc. Instead, we get to witness the wrath of the what must be the repressed "want-to-be's" somehow trying to

convince Leica customers that they are misguided, ignorant, furniture collectors, or lacking in talent or self esteem.

 

Look, if it makes you feel better, I hope you take great pictures with the Rebel. Maybe you should wish the same for

Leica photographers who bear no ill will to you but would like to have a forum where they can discuss various topics

without the typical "Leica challenged" crowd that seems to have nothing better to do other than chiming in with all of

the usual nonsense. (How about just respecting other people's choices?)

 

Oh, and if you win a lottery ticket or just manage to earn some extra dough, go and try a M8. It might just be fun.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Brad_]

>>> Tools don't make the artist; but tools do matter. Just look at any artist... Including photographers.

 

Rather than look at the artist/photographer and his/her tools, I like looking at their photographs.

[Brad_]

>>> Let me ask you a question: since you own a Rebel, why do you spend so much time on the Leica Rangefinder forum?

 

Because I have friends here, have been posting photographs here (for a long time), etc.

 

Why do you post here? Do you post photos?

 

>>> Look, if it makes you feel better, I hope you take great pictures with the Rebel.

 

Honestly, I felt great before your best wishes were extended. Thanks anyway...

[Brad_]

>>> How about just respecting other people's choices?

 

See one of my previous posts. I have a lot of friends who use leica cams...

[Allen Herbert]

"But a camera can inspire a photographer and a camera can become an indispensable tool of the photographer."

 

Sorry,but i find that statement strange. How can a cam inspire you...does it whisper sweet nothings in your ear?

Okay, i enjoy old mechanical cams because i like the craftsmanship but they don't somehow work some magic mo jo

in my brain.

 

Reality is some folk believe money buys artistic vision which is an absolute load of cobblers. The truth be told

would these Leica conversations be taking place if we were talking about a Samsung or whatever..

 

But i must admit, my cam is better than yours posts are entertaining... .

[ray .]

Just agree with Brad, otherwise you run the risk of wasting a whole lot of time that could've been spent much more

productively. He doesn't let go even if the argument is meaningless and it takes hours or days to hash out. In the end

nothing will have changed except that you'll be a little older.

[Brad_]

Odd comment from Ray. I'm just answering Steve's questions...

[stephen_pitts]

Allen,

 

"inspire

Verb

[-spiring, -spired]

1. to stimulate (a person) to activity or creativity

2. to arouse (an emotion or a reaction)"

 

If your equipment doesn't do this for you, well I'm sorry. Mine does. Including the M8. But then why would any

artist not want to use a tool which didn't inspire him?

 

My 290SE Bosendorfer inspires me. Would not a Stradivarius inspire a violin player?

 

Check out the movie "The Red Violin" for inspiration (you'll particularly like one part where everyone is going crazy

about a Stradivarius just for the name!; but thats not the point of the movie as you will see).

 

In short, you guys keep resorting to two simple conjectures: people think the camera makes the photographer (I

would actually conjecture that this is less so with Leica photographers than the users of other equipment since you

actually have to know how to use a Leica camera which means your're more likely to have invested time in learning

how to take photographs) and people buy Leica cameras because it is a fashion statement.

 

Perhaps you guys are too blinded by your hang-ups about Leica to appreciate the real reason most people actually

buy Leicas...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Brad_]

>>> If your equipment doesn't do this for you, well I'm sorry. Mine does.

 

I'm very happy for you...

 

I've seen the movie Red Violin. It was very nice...

 

>>> Perhaps you guys are too blinded by your hang-ups about Leica to appreciate the real reason most people actually

buy Leicas...

 

Whatever... They're fine cams. Certainly have no hangups - it's a cam after all...

 

Kind of weird getting this super-strong emotional reaction just talking about my cam (which I didn't even identify) and not

saying nothing

about leica.

[Allen Herbert]

"inspire Verb [-spiring, -spired] 1. to stimulate (a person) to activity or creativity 2. to arouse (an emotion or a reaction)"

 

Thanks, i was all sort of confused about the word inspire. I feel better now ;)

 

A new toy always inspires you to use it, think of a little child.......but they soon get bored and want another new toy to err…….inspire them.

 

So, we are talking about a very expensive piece of kit, which is claimed to give superior results to anything else? Therefore, it becomes a joy to use because it is so good, correct. Are we talking about the M8 ?

 

To follow your logic a fine crafted piece of workmanship inspires us to reach beyond ourselves to become something greater. I would say it is nice to use my M2 but has little to do with my ability or vision. I think you are trying to give life and special powers to an innate object…..much like the worship of idols.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[stephen_pitts]

Yeah Brad,

 

Kinda weird getting this "super-strong emotional reaction just talking about my cam." What part was emotional?

 

Kinda weird that you haven't found a good forum to talk about your cam except the Leica Rangefinder forum because you've got friends that post pictures here? Who would they be? No good Canon forums?

 

I responded to answer the initial question after I saw the typical absurd same old comments that eminate from crowd that somehow feels threatened by Leica (or Leica users perhaps). Its unique I must say. There are no such commentators on the other forums because they are more concerned with addressing their photographic interests than trying to denigrate one of the most powerful photographic tools that there is.

 

Perhaps they should just start a separate thread ("Leica Anti-fashionitas") to allow all of the anti-Leica crowd a forum of their own. Somehow, I don't think they would be happy with that...

 

Cheers,

 

Steve