M8.2 or Canon 5D markII?

[stephen_pitts]

Yes Allen,

 

I am saying a finely crafted piece of workmanship can indeed inspire us to reach beyond ourselves to become

something greater. And I was talking about many things (violins and pianos to be precise) but you can also include

cameras (just ask almost any ALPA user), including the M8.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Brad_]

>>> Kinda weird that you haven't found a good forum to talk about your cam except the Leica Rangefinder forum ...

 

I really don't talk about my cam that much; which happens to be a canon now, was a sony, and who knows about the future.

 

I do post a LOT of photographs and discuss them and post-processing, though... Just curious, have you posted any?

 

>>> There are no such commentators on the other forums because they are more concerned with addressing their

photographic interests than trying to denigrate one of the most powerful photographic tools that there is.

 

As I said earlier, I was addressing the issue you raised about cameras being inspirational; you seem upset that my view

isn't in alignment with yours. Haven't denigrated or even mentioned leica with respect to that...

[Allen Herbert]

“trying to denigrate one of the most powerful photographic tools that there is”

 

Stephen, with respect, we are now moving away from logical discussion to pure supposition on your part…..akin to an act of worship. You are also getting angry with the unbelievers for not believing in the word…fire and brimstone stuff.

 

Folk have a right to their opinions and they can express them anywhere. Yes, even on the Leica forum among the believers;) Chill out my friend.

[stephen_pitts]

Yes Brad, I should've been more careful. You did not denigrate Leica. My thread could imply otherwise, so I apologize for that. And I will post a photo for you tomorrow (from the M8 which all sit on another computer). Cheers, Steve

[ray .]

<i>I'm just answering Steve's questions...</i><p>Sure you are.<p>

 

<i>I do post a LOT of photographs and discuss them and post-processing, though... Just curious, have you posted any?

</i><p>Let's ask El Fang that question. The other half of the dynamic duo..<p>

<i>I'm very happy for you...</i><p>Snark. Sarcasm. Insult.

[Allen Herbert]

"And I was talking about many things (violins and pianos to be precise) but you can also include cameras (just

ask almost any ALPA user), including the M8."

 

I think you are getting confused between the the joy of using something special and the creativity which can

only come from yourself, Stephen.

 

No matter how nice the gear, it is only gear.

[bernardwest]

<i>Kinda weird that you haven't found a good forum to talk about your cam except the Leica Rangefinder forum

because you've got friends that post pictures here? Who would they be?</i><br><br>

 

I seem to remember not long ago that Brad tried to claim Ray as his friend. Do imaginary friends count?

[bernardwest]

It's good that the cat has been let out of the bag by Sp..., and that we know that Brad posts in a rangefinder forum but uses an SLR. One of Brad's common criticisms of people in the SP forum is that those who don't actively do SP but post in the forum should be disregarded and treated with very little respect. Anyone else see a parallel here?

[Brad_]

Sad... The unhappiness some people hold...<P>

 

Thought I'd share <a href= "http://pages.sbcglobal.net/b-evans/COM33/EdwardJackson">some photos I snapped</a>

at lunch day before yesterday...<P>

[bernardwest]

Brad, were those photo's taken with an slr? If so, why are you posting them here?

[vivek iyer]

<i>Brad, were those photo's taken with an slr? If so, why are you posting them here?</i>

<p>

Bernie, Leica also made SLRs a digital back, lots of P&S cams and P&S digicams. I would like to point out (nothing personal) that this isn't an exclusive RF forum.

<p>

Brad, the shots look a bit overdone. The last one has tree branches coming out of the guy's head. You should really try a good quality fast prime (or better yet a T/S lens) to get smooth bokeh.

[el_fang]

<i>It may not have the 6400ASA to get the motorcycle picture in Nikon's ad (no doubt one of El Fang's absolute

"must haves"),</i>

<p>Who said it was a "must have"? I'm simply marveling at what technology allows photographers to do these days.

Others may long for the "good old days" when f/2.8 was considered superspeed, and when ISO 25 was "fast" for

color film. They may also enjoy putt-putting around on their Model T Fords. To each their own, but let's not deny

that technology has made significant progress and as a result, there are better tools for the job than what was

available decades ago. Thanks to technology, photographers can now shoot decisive moments in available light at

ISO 3200 without even batting an eye, ruining the atmosphere with flash or missing the moment altogether by

setting up a

tripod. For the type of photography small-format rangefinders used to be excellent tools for, Leica was slow out

of the gate with

digital and got left way behind. That's all.</p>

 

<p><i>By the way, the 1.33 factor you highlighted is largely immaterial as the viewfinder appropriately frames

the image except that you could get more megapixels if it was fullframe (which for big enlargements would be a

factor) as well as wider angle shots (although an effective 21mm is pretty wide!).</i></p>

<p>"Largely immaterial"? Tell that to the sods who spent $4,000 on a 28/2-ASPH only to have it converted to a

$2,800 35/2 by the crop factor - all the while watching Leica piss what little R&D funds they had into a

"concept" camera that won't even be released until summer 2009, if at all. And what did current M8 owners get?

Some scraps

in the form of a few immaterial "fixes" a la the M8.2. But wait! If you act now, you can get <a

href="http://us.leica-camera.com/news/news/1/5861.html"

target="_blank">these same "upgrades" to your plain M8 for ONLY $1700.00</a>! Can you really not tell that you're

getting milked?</p>

<p>If it's one thing I admire about M8 apologists, it's that "Thank you, sir, may I have another?" attitude.

But sorry, your apologist statements are just that - another cop-out - just like calling the M8 sensor's excessive IR

sensitivity a "great feature for IR photographers" rather than a design flaw that never should have made it past

QC.</p>

[Brad_]

Bernie, you came back to photonet after a month's absence just to tend to my business? Why?

[bernardwest]

I've been on holiday. Glad you missed me....

[stephen_pitts]

Allen,

 

Agree the artist is the artist and the camera isn't in and of itself "creative." That we know all too well...

 

A good photographer can use just about about any system and still make compelling photographs; however, a good

photographer will often find equipment that he personally becomes attuned to and finds that it helps him in his

creativity.

 

Anyhow, as you may be already aware, check out Michael Kenna's work which I find extremely creative and original.

You could say he's pretty agnostic about his equipment. Sure, except that he chooses to use the very same

equipment (a basic Hasselblad V camera) as he has over the last 20 years and wants no other. He's also very

resolute about the final product: 7.5" x 7.5" prints. Thats it. So he certainly expresses a strong preference for the

tools he uses as an artist (and what amazing stuff).

 

And then there is Mark Tucker (who pops in now and then on this forum). Just love his originality and yet he also

seeks different equipment for different parts of his creative process. There's little doubt that some cameras (and one

makeshift lens) have inspired him to produce some of the great work that he does.

 

So will a Leica rangefinder make you a great photographer? No. (Hence the story I referenced above about

Eisenstadt). Can it help inspire you to want to take great pictures? Yes, and thats why many artists prefer

rangefinders for their work.

 

Anyhow, I'm not going to spend much more time here. I also just noticed a new piece by Erwin Putts that also cuts

across this debate (comparing the Nikon D3 to the Leica). I think he makes some very interesting points as well as

in his blog about the latest photokina (the sheer scale of the automation of cameras).

 

You have to commend Brad for posting his pictures in the middle of this discussion and I'll endeavor to do the same

later today (hopefully on this same thread). I'll just take three photos from my recent trip to India which I help

will "shutter" some of the doubts about the M8 (ISO speed, autofocus and wide angle).

 

Lastly, I'm looking forward to Brad rebuking good ole El Fang for his "super-strong emotional reaction just talking

about my cam" in Fang's immediate post above which is, indeed, a fairly vitrolic denigration of Leica. Although I do

think El makes some interesting points in the upper half of his post about the ISO speed of the M8, its interesting

that until fairly recently no professional digital back went beyond ISO 400 (Hasselblad just went to 800). They

considered that such a speed just produces too much noise. So Leica is not alone here. It may just have to do with

CCD back versus a CMOS back; the former is known for its better imagery, but the latter has several technical

advantages (speed of clearing the frame, etc.). Personally, with regard to the photography I take with the M8, I would

just prefer that the 640 and the 1280 speeds would be a little less noiser. By the way, I can certainly see the beauty

of the Nikon D3's ISO speed in Michael Reichmann's latest safari adventure in Botswana. It looks to be a perfect

camera for such a purpose (I was recently in Madikwe on the border of Botswana lugging around a Hasselblad 205

with the CFV back and a manual focus 300f2.8 -- I was simply blown away by the results as were the ARRI camera

guys who happened to be on the Virgin flight on the way back to London -- but don't try catching any birds in flight

with it.)

 

Anyhow, I think I have already responded to most of Fang's often repeated criticisms of Leica (and its delusional

fans) except for his claim that the S-camera is a "concept" camera (why he cares, I can't imagine -- but anyhow).

Fang El, if you are really sincerely interested in the S2, you should go read the various blogs from people who

actually used it at photokina. Its real. Its working. Fortunately, we maybe be able to get the discussion of it over to

the medium format section so that we can hopefully miss some of the flamming commentary that seems infect the

small format world. Come to think of it, the "large format" or "film" forum guys never behave this way (they truly try

to help each other); I wonder if all this new "technology" is actually making some photographers really any happier --

back to you Allen.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[peteradownunder]

Brad is one of the most genuine and 'nice' people that post on this forum and he has been doing so for a long time. I also enjoy seeing many of his shots. Also he has every right to take people literally and respond accordingly - this is a mark of intelligence and consideration on his part. <p> El Fang is enjoying his anti-Leica phase - I suspect he couldn't make a shot using any camera - this is sad because he clearly likes photography. Oh well...such is life.<p> Certain Street shooting methods are a specialized activity and modern auto focus cameras offer certain advantages for doing street.<p> I dont shoot street much anymore so I dont 'value' a lot of the gizmo advantages in the modern DSLR. I dont need high ISO and I dont need auto focus and don't need a lot of the fantastic technology that CaNikon et al offer. So I sold all that stuff because it is largely useless to me. I have kept my M8 and a few lenses - because I can make a nice photo and pack all my kit in a small space. <p> These discussions do not add a lot to the photographic store of knowledge.<p> Fangio - do yourself a favour and understand that there are a lot of very accomplished photographers - who dont need or value what you seem to need and value. Certainly a constant criticism of Leica on your part - most of which merely underlines how little you do know about the practical aspects of photography (from a photographer's point of view btw) - does you or anyone else no good. but hey - if you want to live yoru own reality TV show on here- go right ahead - I enjoy the laughs!