Politeness on this forum

[derek_linney]

I have noticed a tendency developing in this forum where someone posts a

question and then just gets abuse / ridicule. OK, so sometimes the questions are

naive or simplistic, sometimes they have been asked before, sometimes they are

so general as to be unaswerable and yes, sometimes they are dumb. BUT surely it

is no hardship to answer in a civilised manner and welcome these newbies onto

the forum. Rather than post an entry that doesn't help them at all one can at

least point them, politely, to where they may find the information they need.

<p>

Of course, if you want to give the impression that Canon users are intolerant,

rude know-alls then just keep posting in the manner that has been growing of late.

[zacker]

I see this EVERYWHERE! On all the forums I belong to. I guess its a growing trend, folks who think it makes them look important or makes them look like big shot, forum bosses..lol I guess it's really easy to forget, we were ALL newbies at one time or another in our lifes. It kinda sad, really.

[john_bellenis]

Thank you - I have noticed this too and it always says much more about the responder than

the original poster (who genuinely just wants some advice). I don't think it's just intolerance,

it has more to do with self importance and trying to project an aura of superiority and

intelligence - it actually achieves the exact opposite...

[joe_fikes]

Derek for President!

 

Thank you. The fundamental problem with the Internet is that it provides the sociopaths a venue where they can behave in a way that would get them punched in the mouth if they did it face-to-face. I'd be shocked if it changes, because cowards will always be - cowards.

 

Joe

[jwhite3.0]

Well, modern man has only been around less than 200,000 years so give us another 50,000 to become civilized and pleasant.

 

Good points everyone, I was getting mildly abrasive to posts that were obviously generated to create a riot then I made an effort to NOT post a reply to such posts. Advice is a healthy thing but thinking one can change another person's opinion over the internet is very healthy.

[jwhite3.0]

typo, "very unhealthy"

[Matt Laur]

Derek: Certainly there are people who don't understand how poorly it reflects on them to answer a post with deliberate hostility. Many of them seem to forget that none of these posts are going away (Google knows all!). That being said, some of those naive, "beginner" questions cross the line from being inadvertantly rude because of a lack of understanding about the subject matter to being just plain generally rude, socially. It doesn't matter <i>what</i> aspect of photography or any other discipline is the subject of the question/post ... if the person leaving the comment appears to be deliberately ignoring some basic social graces even as they are asking other people to help them, they shouldn't be shocked when they are treated a bit dismissively.

<br><br>

Take for example the person who asks a reasonable question, gets half a dozen informative or insightful answers, and then abandons that thread without so much as a thank you or a comment that suggests they are contemplating what's beeen conveyed to them. Oh well, that's just somewhat rude. But when that same person pops right back up later the same day, or the next, asking the same question without a nod to the people who've already labored to answer it - you'll see some curt responses. If you only see the second exchange, you might think the person was treated poorly. A little context goes a long way.

<br><br>

As for asking the unanswerable questions: what do you propose? At that point we're not talking about photography - we're talking about remedial cognitive, communications, and social skills. Even a casual visitor to this form would surely notice that it's not the sort of place that witless junior high school kids swap platitudes in 1334-speak or obsess about nonsense. There's a definite focus, here, and (generally) a tone that it's very easy to pick up on. I like to think in terms of a physical analog. What if we were all standing together having this conversation in a room, right now, and someone walked in and said "HELP ME!". And only after actually asking why they were screaming, they said, "I'm being paid $200 to shoot a wedding in an hour, and need to know why I get shadows when I use my flash. Also, someone please help me design a business card I can get printed real quick. OMG! Hey! Why isn't anyone helping me?"

<br><br>

Where do you start with someone like that? Sometimes it actually IS appropriate to alter the mood a bit (socially) before getting down to discussing the damage that person is about to inflict on their unsuspecting "customer."

<br><br>

Yes, some members here have very bad radar and can't seem to (or want to) discern between naivete and simple bad manners on the part of the person asking the quesiton - but for every rude response you cite, I think I may be able to point to a question or comment so ill-conceived or truly out of touch with social norms as to seem almost deliberately meant to provoke a rebuke. We should all try take the high road. But when you're always turning the other cheek, you start running out of cheeks!

[phule]

I can only echo the excellent reply that Matt has written here. The standard should be applied to both the thread generator and the respondents.

 

To not even try to research the problem before posting is to insult those that have spent countless hours writing very helpful replies.

[KenPapai]

What Matt and Rob said. There are all sorts who post to this EOS forum; patient types, teachers, yellers, coaches, students, humorists, artists, neophytes, advanced amateurs, enthusiasts, semi pros, and pros. There are also computer/I.T./softare experts; experts with doctorates in sciences; and best of all, the home base for the top experts in the Canon EOS system -- arguably the best SLR system.

 

Some people take to being yelled at when learning (like a coach to a promising athlete). Some people are the opposite -- ultra sensitive and naive both to photography (all aspects including technical) and to expert Internet forums.

 

Somehow it all seems to work VERY WELL here. Please don't change. Everyone here is passionate. Don't get all soft & cuddly, please!

[saltcod]

Agreed. There are often poor questions asked here on the forum, but that's no excuse to be rude. I've often seen posts, where someone will call the question stupid and then proceed to answer the question. If you don't want to answer a question then don't.

 

The previous question (Cheapest L lens) wasn't a bad question for someone who didn't know the answer, yet it was very badly ridiculed.

[saskphotog]

The trouble is the web is populated with computer geek wimps who aren't man enough to take a little constructive criticism. If you ask a stupid, simplistic questions that could be answered with a simple "RTFM" then what do you expect? I'm tired of wasting my time on newbies with too much money and not enough sense to know that .........

 

Oh, wait. Maybe I'm ........

 

Forget I said all that. I'm feeling much better now.

[roger_smith4]

My only suggestion is to quickly delete posts that are repetitive of other posts where the poster clearly didn't search before typing. It says clearly to perform such a search first, and those who don't bother to do so shouldn't be rewarded for it. I trolled photo.net for months before posting anything.

[gdanmitchell]

<p>For the most part ways to try to maintain/improve the tone of posts may include:

 

<ul>

<li>Don't respond to <i>ad hominen</i> attacks in the discussion threads.</li>

<li>Do respond to the content of posts.</li>

<li>Avoid interpreting the poster's words as proof of incompetence/stupidity.</li>

<li>When in doubt, write in a tone may seem more "cool" and factual than what you might use in verbal communication.</li>

<li>Including terms like "I think" or "in my experience" or "some may disagree" can acknowledge validity of different opinions.</li>

</ul>

 

<p>Finally, take some action to improve the quality of the community when you can. Small example: I'm frustrated by the superficial rating system at

PN. Recently I decided that I would post observations/comments on several photos in the critique forum for each photo I post. I also decided that I

would not post a comment on a photo unless I was willing to look at it carefully and post something thoughtful - and that I would only comment on

photos about which I could include something positive (as well as comments about what might not work for me.)

 

<p>If enough of us took this on we might be able to improve things, yes?

 

<p>Dan

[pkallos]

I think the majority of posts are polite and helpful. There are much much worse forums...

 

There is some rudeness, which can be attributed to many things, but mainly this rudeness seems to appear when people ask questions that are very common and have been answered many times.

 

Maybe a better response than rudeness is to not answer at all, or to post the search string that pulled up the results. Search engines are weird sometimes, just a change of the phrase will sometimes mean the difference between seeing something relevant or not.

[geoff_foale]

We get this sort of question all the time . . .

 

Actually I think it is far more polite and courteous here than it was, say, a year ago. People often phrase a question or answer badly and for many this isn't their first language. Also somebody with 'learning problems' can still become a first class photographer.

 

I remember when I first started to learn about digital photography and editing (there is still so much to learn) and I found it very difficult to obtain any answers.

 

For me, questioners who fail to return and say whether the answers were helpful are a particular problem. How do we know if we are giving suitable answers if we don't get any feedback?

 

Some responders have particular 'hobby horses' like any Nikon must always be better than a Canon or a prime lens is always better than a zoom. But for most it's just a case of trying to be patiently helpful.

[J.W. Wall]

Peter, I agree that sometimes it is better not to answer at all than to post a rude answer. Perhaps ignoring the "offending" person would have a better chance of changing them, than would goading them. Yes, there are a lot of rude or ignorant or silly posts, but none of us are compelled to respond to them. I'm reminded of the advice that it takes a stronger person NOT to fight in many circumstances. None of this is life and death (except perhaps for some of one's photos...).

[anson_ko]

totally. some ppl get mad very easily even in a forum. There are so many different levels, different skills and should be ok to express the ideas. Just causal talking here. A lot of ppl deny they need angry management classes. Easily lost temper/angry is a sign of sickness and it's hard to determine. That's why we have so many crazy ppl around because they do not believe they are sick. Everyone else is sick.

[bobatkins]

We have a policy of not discussing the forum politics in the forum, but I'll leave this thread here for a day.

 

As a moderator here (and in other forums) I can tell you that the worst offenders (i.e. those who are rude all the time) do get sent warning notices and those who persist in being rude do get suspended from forums and, as a last resort for the worst offenders, removed from the site.

 

This can't be a kindergarten where everyone is forced to be nice to everyone else 100% of the time, nor do I think that level of moderation would be appropriate for an adult forum. However that's no excuse top be rude or offensive and I can assure you that every day someone in some forum is sent a note asking them to consider their tone when replying to posts, especially posts from beginners which may seem to ask "stupid" questions - or questions that are asked all the time, the answers to which could be found by a simple search.

 

Again, forum politics and policies aren't really an appropriate subject for discussion here. Photo.net has a Feedback Forum where such issues are better discussed (http://www.photo.net/bboard/forum?topic_id=1562).

 

For those who don't read other forums here, I think the EOS forum is one of the better behaved and more responsible forums on photo.net. Of course I'm somewhat biased in that regard!

[derek_linney]

Bob,

<p>

Nice to know you are working away behind the scenes to keep us all honest.

<p>

And thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion.

<p>

Regards, Derek

[brian_byrne1]

Having sent the question this morning, I'd like to thank those who posted a reply to my question, both good and bad, and to those who have opened a discourse on the nature of internet-based learning through web forums.

 

Put simply, I'm new to this forum, my phraseology was poor, I should have refined my question or asked it more subtly. I was looking for individual experiences and methods on using the Canon 580EX and seeking the best results to obtain fill flash for a number of friends? weddings.

 

I was hoping to learn more from professionals about the flash I have invested. I?m passionate about learning more about photography and feel that individual knowledge always yields more than manuals, hence visiting a forum.

[hjoseph7]

You don't know what type of mood the person might be in when they login to the forum. Some people have very short tempers.

[ronald_moravec1]

Let it roll off. The world is full of people who have big heads.

 

This forum is not as bad as it was 4 or 5 years back so that is progress.

 

Please continue to ask questions and responses.

 

99% of what I do is post responses, but I have been helped with a few very difficult digital/computer issues which I would had a very difficult time resolving on my own. I spend the time to answer because photography has been my passion for close to 50 years now and I wish for it to continue to another generation.

[martyn]

I think your all a bunch of idiots that have nothing better to do but gripe and moan all day!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I am joking)

[PuppyDigs]

It's pretty easy to ignore dumb posts. Why waste your time being rude to strangers? I figure

these guys need to get a life as, sadly, rude behavior is the nearest thing to love they can

manage. Of course maybe it's a cultural thing. Many of the rude posters are polite compared

to some of the New York camera dealers I have talked with!

[steve torelli]

Very often, attempts at humor are mistaken for rudeness. Difficult to convey attitude on the web. But, you gotta have a sense of humor.